Is there a "toyota" quality of residential mod con?

hothothot

Looks like i'll have to replace my mod con boiler. Evey contractor has a very strong and different recommendation. I think the most mentioned brands are: Renai, navien. viessmann, lochinvar,IBS?,nti. I guess there are others, but in terms of dependability and parts availability over 10? years, is there one that shines above all?

pecmsg

The name of the installation contractor is more important than the name on the box’s!

a bad contractor can screw them all equally!

hot_rod

I like the boiler brands best, most all have entry level and upgraded models with more control options.
You want an installer that has been trained on the brand and model you choose. It is important to know how to set up the burner and control settings to maximize the products potential

mattmia2

Viessman is obviously the mercedes of mod cons but some of the entry level stuff is reasonably priced (kind of like mercedes and bmw). Lochinvar gives you a lot of the control that Viessman does. If you go with one with more customizable control you need an installer that knows how to use it or you need to learn yourself.

MaxMercy

You're looking for a mod/con with a perceived level of quality that doesn't match the real world experience? 😂😂

Everything I've seen shows any mod/con is going to have a lifespan of between 10-15 years with parts being iffy towards the end of that time.

ethicalpaul

pecmsg said:

The name of the installation contractor is more important than the name on the box’s!

a bad contractor can screw them all equally!

More important, maybe, but surely it can't hurt to start with a quality boiler!?

JUGHNE

Lochinvar has worked out for me.

Yes, there have been problems. But parts have been only 1 day away.
I am 200 miles from the supply house and they had all necessary parts.

Yes a fair amount of money spent on repairs after only a few years of use.

But I still have some Munchkins running after 20 years with some parts available.

HomerJSmith

I recommend the brands you didn't mention (haha). Contractors sell the brand their wholesalers handle.
The problem with Viessmann is German engineering. They think they are designing a rocket ship to the moon.
I like Lochinvar because that's what my wholesaler sells. When they sold Munchkins that's what I liked.
One of my major concerns is warranty. How does the company stand behind their warranty? Is the 99 year warranty that they offer just a selling gimmick with no intention of honoring it?
I had a part failure on a Lochinvar that was under warranty and the part was promptly replaced. That's a big deal with me. Saved my customer almost a Grand.

By the way Toyota has had some flops, ask Scotty Kilmer.

hothothot

i thought scotty loves the carolla! what's the carolla of mod cons?

hothothot

Corolla

psb75

Viessmann makes the most boilers in the world (oh, and they are good).
Now they are being bought-up by Carrier--the big AC company.
I think the Germans saw..."the writing on the wall."

GGross

Viessmann, Lochinvar, Triangle Tube.

I am partial to Viessmann, we are able to get parts for their first model mod/cons that they introduced to the US. Control boards are expensive after the model is out of production. They have the best heat exchanger, and heat exchanger warranty on the market

Loads of contractors prefer Lochinvar for various reasons, the wholesaler they buy from stocks them, or they are able to go to training events etc. I am not sure on parts availability for them but I imagine they must do an OK job or there would be many more complaints

Triangle Tube is still a good brand, they had a bad reputation a few years ago, due mainly to one of their vendors pawning off the stainless steel welding on a company that never welded stainless before. Those problems only existed for a few months but plagued the brand for years. They are a good boiler, I can still get parts for their first models of mod/cons, parts are a very reasonable price. They also offer the best in market parts warranty if your dealer registers the install and sends in a combustion analysis and pic of the install.


Those are the 3 I would trust the most, I would have any in my house, I currently have a Viessmann because I have a great relationship with them and stock parts for them. In a perfect world you would purchase a brand that has good local support, with a wholesaler that has stocked them for a good amount of time, and a contractor that regularly deals with that brand. I would argue the installer, and parts/warranty support are more important than the brand. Equally important, no matter the brand, is maintenance. I don't like bad mouthing other brands but I would steer clear of Navien

mattmia2

The thing that plagues all of them is that their web sites are very difficult to navigate. I should be able to find your fire tube boilers without knowing what your "persephone 6000" system is.

The categories of equipment should be described both in plain language that a homeowner can understand and the trade jargon, then within those categories their lines of equipment should also be described that way.

hot_rod

There is no question that the Germans are capable of building highly engineered boilers, anything mechanical really. Probably a piece if a German engineers brain in most all mon cons.

They came to the US with a “my way or the highway” attitude

The were reluctant to leave their metric way in Europe 😗, 

Some refused to pay commissions high enough to support the amount of tech time to support 300 pages if installation manuals. So they have gone through many reps.

So only the wholesalers willing to learn and support the product succeed. And hopefully make money doing it🤗

Slowly some of the Euro brands evolved to our way of doing business, others left in a huff.

ChrisJ

hot_rod said:

There is no question that the Germans are capable of building highly engineered boilers, anything mechanical really. Probably a piece if a German engineers brain in most all mon cons.

They came to the US with a “my way or the highway” attitude

The were reluctant to leave their metric way in Europe 😗, 

Some refused to pay commissions high enough to support the amount of tech time to support 300 pages if installation manuals. So they have gone through many reps.

So only the wholesalers willing to learn and support the product succeed. And hopefully make money doing it🤗

Slowly some of the Euro brands evolved to our way of doing business, others left in a huff.

I was talking to someone I have a lot of respect for a while back and he was asking about a specific brand of machine. I told him, they're a decent machine, and I like them but many think they're crap. He looked confused and said "I didn't think the Germans ever build..... crap?" I explained that it's made in California and he responded with "Oh, I guess that makes sense then, I thought it was German."

This has nothing to do with HVAC but certainly has to do with how German made stuff is thought of around the world.

tim smith

I am partial to Lochinvar (only the firetube), Viessmann pretty good. They all must be maintained. The BS they said for so long was self cleaning on the firetube. Ha! The tubes will block up, the water tubes with block up. The water tubes are a easier to clear out than the firetubes but they also will pin hole out eventually. The firetubes are restricting from the bottom of tubes up, they are nearly impossible to get all the granules out of the lower part of tubes. If you keep up with them every year, open them up and rod and flush the tubes will give you the most longevity. Same with the water tubes, ie Viessmann. I still feel the best thing to tell clients when you are installing condensing boilers is that they are 15-20 yrs devices. Not the 30 to 70 yr boilers they were use to with the old cast irons. Give them a realistic expectation and they won't be disappointed. Their will be repairs, blowers every 6-10 yrs, every 2-4 yrs flame rod\igniters. Control boards 10 yrs + or -, sometimes life of boiler. Just my .02 worth after the last 20 + yrs of servicing and installing the condensing boiler market and another 21 yrs before that with cast irons.

Peace all and Happy 4th
Tim

MaxMercy

tim smith said:

I still feel the best thing to tell clients when you are installing condensing boilers is that they are 15-20 yrs devices. Not the 30 to 70 yr boilers they were use to with the old cast irons. Give them a realistic expectation and they won't be disappointed.

One thing I know from doing a service trade (totally different trade but the analogy fits) is that people have memories forever and remember everything you say when making a pitch. If you really want to give them a realistic expectation, then 10-15 years life for a mod/con will lead to less frustration if it dies at 12 years old.

Tom_133

I have found locally that NTI is well stocked at over 3 wholesalers all different companies with central distributions that come daily. That is good to have so many options when you are looking for a part. I have installed Lochinvar, and they have done well. Good tech support but locally they are only in 1 LARGE wholesaler, and that can mean getting parts is hard.

Rickoo

Just a homeowner/diy'er here, but if these modcons last half as long as a good ol' cast iron boiler, require more maintenance, have parts that are more difficult to obtain and are so complicated that they need a highly skilled tech to work on them, what's the attraction?

Mad Dog_2

So true, H.O.s, especially, remember EVERY word of your "successful" sales pitch. I have a long time client who we did two boilers in two houses in town for.  The first house was one pipe steam oil to gas conversion..Went With Burnham Independence (The Best in my opinion we had at the time.)  No issues, still chugging, no leaks 23 yrs later. 

 The second house was a 1970s Ranch with Hot Water Base boards.  We were doing a Ton of Buderus at the time as well.  2004ish..I  told it was a Top of the Line system and "You're not going to have ANY issues!!"

Went with a GX-124 stacked on top of a Buderus Indirect. Logimatic control as usual.  Everything was great the first winter..then the calls started..."This Buderus you sold me isn't what you promised..how could it leak/break down so quickly??
YOU SAID....." 

So I head over with a pit in my stomach...The relief valve is blowing. Bad AMTROL Extrol 30..8 months old. Swap it out.  Two months later.."This Buderus is supposed to made in Germany 🇩🇪?   What the Heck, man?"  Run over...Argo relay (Were never the same after they stopped making them in New Berlin Connecticut (USA).  Swapped out with a Taco I believe.

The last issue the following season was the Watts 9 D that dripped a little water on the floor (grit got under the seat from water main work in street). Although each trip was back at no charge, I had reminded him
"This isn't the BUDERUS but the other items..."  Not convinced, he threw the BUDERUS comment out again., politely but Frustrated 😞..."CARMINE !!  Ahhspchpet (sic?) a minute.  This is the third trip back here....Nothing on the Buderus has given you a problem..These are all top if the line companies, but issues happen.  You can curse 3 names if you want, Argo, AMTROL and Watts, but I'm not going to let Buderus take ANY blame here."  He thought about it and agreed.  That was around 18 yrs ago. Still  HUMMING along..

Another quick one.  
Did a Radiant Staple up job in a nice den with Jimmy The Gent Burke (The Man).  HX off an existing oil steam Peerless. Did everything right.  Next winter...I get THAT call..."Were not happy...JIMMY told us this would be the warmest room in the house!!!  My wife's got an afghan on here..Can you come over??? Now??  (Saturday night...what a business!!  Ha ha 😂). First stop was straight to the basement...nothing wrong..right temps going out...good Delta T...Ok..now to the den....Fireplace Doors were gone and damper wide open... and one wall is demo'd with plastic sheeting up to another extension they were adding. 5 degree outside temp on the other side of the plastic!!  Hmm..You didn't tell me about this on the phone!  "Why ? What's the problem Jimmy GUARANTEED us this would be the WARMEST room in the house!!"  Another FREE "callback" that's NOT YOUR FAULT. Some folks will offer to pay you for the trip, but I've never taken it for "Homeowner error."  You have EVERY  right to give them a bill (Corporate business philosophy), but no one likes it and you lose that Mom and Pop feel..Takin it on the chin...ha ha 😂.   Mad Dog 🐕 

hot_rod

Rickoo said:

Just a homeowner/diy'er here, but if these modcons last half as long as a good ol' cast iron boiler, require more maintenance, have parts that are more difficult to obtain and are so complicated that they need a highly skilled tech to work on them, what's the attraction?

Efficiency is one driver of the attraction. Some of that is driven by government standards. Not unlike the automotive industry.
Low temperature systems like radiant also need equipment designed for low temperature operation.
In the process of designing mod cons the modulation came along which is a big deal for cutting down the on off cycles.
A lot more control settings are available also to perfectly match the boiler to the system requirements.

Cast iron boilers are still being  sold if that’s what you want. They don’t appear to be 50-70 year quality anymore, however, smaller sections, thinner castings. More electronic controls and ignition systems in them, repair parts may be obsolete in 10- 15 years for them also?

Mad Dog_2

Burnham Alpine is nice  reliable  reasonably priced.  MAD Dog 🐕 

FStephenMasek

Toyota? That name means "junk" to me. I made the mistake for buying an expensive new Toyota and had to sell the junk after a few weeks, as the steering column leaned to the left (by design), and the seat was shaped wrong, so I'd have severe upper back and neck pain for a day or two after driving that heap.

hot_rod

Toyota, Honda and other made in Japan cars came into the US and shook up the domestic car manufacturers
Better quality, fit, finish, reliability, cost, etc

To the point that US car makers started buying engines, transmission, electronics from Japan. Still do.

Some of the best running Fords had Yamaha engines😉

https://news.yahoo.com/time-yamaha-built-ford-engine-173908682.html

Mad Dog_2

The late 1970s and most of the 1980s was an era of Ignominious defeat for the American Auto industry..The K Car..Chevy Monza...ugh..The Japanese were in a perfect position to strike..and they hit Gold. My Family were 100% Oldsmobile and Chevy, but were so disgusted they 
Bought twin 1990 Toyota Camrys.. We just junked the last one in 2020...Super reliable well built cars.  I've heard that may not be the case these days, but no regrets   mad Dog 

Sal Santamaura

Mad Dog_2 said:

The late 1970s and most of the 1980s was an era of Ignominious defeat for the American Auto industry...Chevy Monza...ugh..

So you think a V6 Monza designed so one needed to lift the engine in order to replace plugs wasn't that great, eh?

EdTheHeaterMan

ethicalpaul said:

pecmsg said:

The name of the installation contractor is more important than the name on the box’s!

a bad contractor can screw them all equally!

More important, maybe, but surely it can't hurt to start with a quality boiler!?

And you picked Peerloss?

STEAM DOCTOR

@EdTheHeaterMan. Got to ask. Have you had bad experiences with the Peerless 63 series? 

WMno57

In the 1970's the US government destroyed our domestic automobile industry by forcing domestic manufactures to meet emissions and fuel economy requirements in too short of a timeframe. European and Japanese manufactures had a huge head start with small cars and fuel injection due to their many years of exorbitant fuel taxes.
Big part of why we lost our manufacturing base. To this day, the rust belt has not recovered. Thanks Washington.
Makes you wonder what kind of version 1.0 crap will be foisted on consumers by the electrify mandates. The only good news in all this is next year the Supremes will likely toss the Chevron Deference. No more law making by unelected bureaucrats!
So yes, 40 years ago Toyota and Honda had good quality small cars while we were trying to figure out how to make small cars and fuel injection.
Today Toyota makes the best hybrids. If you drive a lot of miles, determine if you can comfortably fit in one. In 2018 they cut the head room in the Camry to get better mileage. If you have Northern European ancestors, you may have a longer torso relative to your height, and may be looking through the sun tint at the top of the windshield.
One of Toyota's truck models had major problems with rusted frames breaking in half, and rusted through rear axle housings losing all the gear oil. I'm not a fan of rubber timing belts and/or interference engines. Putting the starter inside the manifold valley of a V8 is a dumb idea.
The Yamaha engine was better than every Ford engine except for the 300 straight Six. But except for the 300 Six (which couldn't pass tightening emissions), most ford engines were a step below most GM and Chrysler engines. Particularly the V8s.
With the amount of change occurring in products, Brand means nothing.

EdTheHeaterMan

STEAM DOCTOR said:

@EdTheHeaterMan. Got to ask. Have you had bad experiences with the Peerless 63 series? 

No, I'm just bustin' on Paul because I can!

STEAM DOCTOR

Got it. Seems like busting on Paul is the Wall's  PC thing to do!! 🤣 He seems to enjoy the well intended banter (for the most part). FWIW, I think that he has made major contributions to the Wall. His experiments and research have certainly been eye-opening. I would suggest that all codes should mandate his transparent boiler piping. Certainly eliminates a lot of the guesswork. Is the steam wet or dry?? Why guess, when you can know?? In addition, I think he has reinforced to that which we all intuitively know. Question everything. Think and think and rethink. Just because something is accepted, or has been done a certain way for endless years, does not mean that it's the correct way or the best way to do anything. We should always be open minded and inquisitive on one hand, and respectful and humble on the other hand. I have certainly been on jobs where the homeowner or the new apprentice made suggestions. I stopped and thought for a moment and said "hay, he's right, let's do things his way". Of course, more often than not, the homeowner or the  apprentice is way off and just an intrusive nudge. Nuff said. 

ethicalpaul

EdTheHeaterMan said:

ethicalpaul said:

pecmsg said:

The name of the installation contractor is more important than the name on the box’s!

a bad contractor can screw them all equally!

More important, maybe, but surely it can't hurt to start with a quality boiler!?

And you picked Peerloss?

Should I have picked a Burnham independence? Or a Utica like I had before with its bizarre side supplies? The peerless seems to have very beefy castings and I'm happy with it, but I'll definitely let you know when it rusts out.

STEAM DOCTOR

@ethicalpaul. I think Ed was just doing some good natured ribbing. He probably would have done the same regardless of which boiler you have. For what it's worth, I have a 63 series in my house and I love it. Installed by yours truly. And it really is my go-to boiler, all things being equal.

clammy

Plain and simple there isn’t no Toyota of mod cons .in a truer reality they are all throw away boiler w a limited lifespan period . You can truely look in your rear view mirror and realize that we went from installing boiler that lasted decades to wall and floor mounted mod con that if all goes excellent maybe you will see 15 possibly 20 years that’s it . Remember no one makes money from non repeat customers so making a product that has a infinite lifespan is no very good business practice . Still the largest hurdle w mod cons aside from lifespan is mis application ,running higher temps ,micro zoning and of course the real deal breaker is poor installation practices . Most can be engineered w buffer tanks and loads of extras driving that cost up for what it still a pos w a limited life span .We all know how much thought gone into making these type of boiler work properly in this country ,being where the multi micro zone capital of the universe . While if you think of where they can from and that most of not all are single zone using a indoor reset aside from outdoor reset it’s no wonder there limited life span , the largest issue is cheap installs without proper hydraulic separation ,poor pump selections lack of proper air elimination the list goes on and on . Personally I ve was on the band wagon long ago and as time has past as before I just don’t sell a mod con I sell what fits the system if it’s hi temp there’s no mod con that really going to shine at 180 and I don’t want to heat the modulation takes care of it all please pull my chain a little harder and faster .
I ll recommend chimney lines and all that jazz unless I see a system that will operate at 140 to 160 at below design and each zone is above the mim modulation then ok but that after it’s clearly explained the average life span and the required yearly servicing ,cleaning and combustion testing all of which really averages it out money wise to being quite costly in comparison;to a cast iron boiler and when averaging there comparison lifespans a mod con is no long term investment just a expensive liability .in reality I doubt if anyone has really done a truthful independent study of a properly sized cast boiler w a mod con on exactly the same homes and system I think gnoses finding would be eye opening to say the least . At least they are listed usually w a h stamp while most mini splits are listed as a appliance like a washing machine now that’s humorous .
Just remember my last point where all out to save the world in our own way I hope but in the name to sanity go to your locale p and supply house I know what I see is loads of wall hung and floor mounted mod con on the docks awaiting warranty inspections due to failing before the warranty has expired ,why mostly because most where never properly installed and commissioned just look at all the direct tanks there also why because most did not follow the instructions and check water chemistry and water pressure but installed anyway and usually without a mixing valve and or portable expansion tank .
There few and far between who do the job properly and most don’t get these jobs because they have looked and included everything that is required for proper installation . The far and few between this is the real issue . The race to the bottom clearly is close to the titanic .
Sorry for the pre holiday 1 strong coffee rant ok I’m lighting the pre holiday fuse .
Peace and good luck clammy

Mad Dog_2

Amen Clamster...Mad Dog 🐕 

gyrfalcon

In my experience-
Toyota-  very reliable with minimal maintenance if any at all. But if a problem arises that has not been addressed by a technical service bulletin from the factory, which would be glanced over to reach the end pages stating what parts to replace and to be then referenced as an abridged gospel from hence forth should any same model car arrive with similar issues.  The technicians generally do not know how to or wish to not proceed with any testing to verify the cause of the  problem , out of laziness, lack of understanding or leaning on good luck with a gamble, ultimately leading to guesswork and parts swapping, hoping the problem or customer and car goes away.  But because Toyota is so good it’s Rarely a problem because they are made to not have problems.   Now, on straightforward service and maintenance work, a Toyota tech will crush the time clock to the point they run out of work for the day. 

To add to this, related or not, my last 2006  Toyota Sienna had 280K miles on it with decent maintenance, the 3.3L engine is a timing belt set up.    My current Sienna is  a 2013 with the 3.5L with timing chain, so no timing maintenance but… if timing work or oil leaks from timing cover are needed ..  the cost is phenomenal, Engine must be removed for repairs.   

Modern Boilers, Hvac, Automobiles etc,  all have an approximate lifespan of 10-20 years then get a new one.  

ChrisJ

WMno57 said:

In the 1970's the US government destroyed our domestic automobile industry by forcing domestic manufactures to meet emissions and fuel economy requirements in too short of a timeframe. European and Japanese manufactures had a huge head start with small cars and fuel injection due to their many years of exorbitant fuel taxes.
Big part of why we lost our manufacturing base. To this day, the rust belt has not recovered. Thanks Washington.
Makes you wonder what kind of version 1.0 crap will be foisted on consumers by the electrify mandates. The only good news in all this is next year the Supremes will likely toss the Chevron Deference. No more law making by unelected bureaucrats!
So yes, 40 years ago Toyota and Honda had good quality small cars while we were trying to figure out how to make small cars and fuel injection.
Today Toyota makes the best hybrids. If you drive a lot of miles, determine if you can comfortably fit in one. In 2018 they cut the head room in the Camry to get better mileage. If you have Northern European ancestors, you may have a longer torso relative to your height, and may be looking through the sun tint at the top of the windshield.
One of Toyota's truck models had major problems with rusted frames breaking in half, and rusted through rear axle housings losing all the gear oil. I'm not a fan of rubber timing belts and/or interference engines. Putting the starter inside the manifold valley of a V8 is a dumb idea.
The Yamaha engine was better than every Ford engine except for the 300 straight Six. But except for the 300 Six (which couldn't pass tightening emissions), most ford engines were a step below most GM and Chrysler engines. Particularly the V8s.
With the amount of change occurring in products, Brand means nothing.

That's a very different story from the one I usually hear.
Especially considering GM had production fuel injection setups in 1957.

I suppose cars and trucks being worn out in 80-100K and or rusting out in 2 years was the governments fault? HP ratings dropping in 1972 were due to the government forcing them to actually rate their products correctly, nothing actually changed. So, that much was very good in my opinion.

I would blame the big 3, no one else. They wouldn't let anyone compete until an outside source they couldn't stop stepped in.

Did the emissions laws get pushed too fast? Maybe I don't know. But they all had an equal playing field IMO.


Eh, that's my opinion anyway.

WMno57

ChrisJ said:

Especially considering GM had production fuel injection setups in 1957.

That's right Chris. GM offered the Rochester Ramjet for 9 model years 57 - 65. AMC and Chrysler also offered the Bendix Electrojector in 1957.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bendix_Electrojector
Both the Ramjet and the Elctrojector were ahead of the mechanical and electrical controls available at the time. Bendix gave up and licensed the design to Bosch, who developed the Electrojector into the Bosch D_Jetronic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jetronic#D-Jetronic_(1967–1979)

WMno57

gyrfalcon said:

Modern Boilers, Hvac, Automobiles etc,  all have an approximate lifespan of 10-20 years then get a new one.  

Unfortunately, that is mostly true, but not always. My 04 Chevy Suburban, 88 Ford pickup (IH Diesel), my son's 00 Avalon and 04 Camry (in family since new) are all exceptions to this. I have 5000 miles of drivers seat time with 2015 Rav4. I'm still not a huge Toyota fan. Some Toyota cars are OK, some not. Their hybrids do get excellent mileage. Eventually the hybrid batteries degrade to the point where you get the "Red Triangle of Death".

gyrfalcon

If/when I get a new boiler I can only hope that it never needs more than annual maintenance, like a Toyota. 

WMno57

"These engines are prone to oil gelling. Another name for the issue was "engine sludge".[1] There was a class action lawsuit due to this problem.[2] It is very important to the life of these engines that oil changes are done on a regular basis."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_MZ_engine#1MZ-FE