GENERATOR hook up

Jamie Hall

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYOUFGfK4bU

EBEBRATT-Ed

I am a gasfitter in MA & was in CT until I "retired."

Both states would hold the gasfitter or plumber liable for making the wrong hook up.

In CT years ago there was a famous case where the homeowner installed (mounted) some 120-volt electric baseboard and hired an electrician to hook it up.

He hooked it up all right to 240volt and the house burned to the ground. Don't remember if there were any fatalities.

The electrician was on the hook for that one. No assumptions read the unit nameplate.

It matters not what state this was installed in. The gas fitter or plumber is responsible for the gas hook up.

Mad Dog_2

Whose on first, Abbott?  Ha ha . Mad Dog

Mad Dog_2

My philosophy was always: THE BUCK STOPS HERE!  Fingerpointing later is very  stressful and never good.  Ask alot if questions BEFORE you take a check or grab the Ridgid 2 footer...avoids TONS of headaches...Mad Dog 🐕 

HomerJSmith

Simple! It's DrumK's responsibility. It is ultimately the homeowner who uses the appliance to ask the questions as to installation and use as it's the homeowner that bares the consequences. Of course there are a lot of dumb homeowners who shirk their responsibility and yield to authority and then complain vehemently when things don't go the way they thought and they lawyer up.

No, I'm not speaking personally, but I've seen it many times. I'm reminded of what Edward G. Robinson said to Steve McQueen in the movie "Cincinnati Kid". "You only paid to see the cards. Lessons are extra." You only paid for the two installations. Conversion is extra."

I'm not implying a criticism of DrumK, I'm sure he's a wonderful guy, but, as my Dad use to say, "When you point a finger at someone--remember three of them are pointing back at you.

Sorry for the harsh comment. I don't mean to be harsh. I'm talking like I'm talking to my own kids--Like my Dad talked to me.

PC7060

@HomerJSmith - it seems absurd to think the buyer (homeowner) has final technical responsibility for a complex installation performed by licensed professionals. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

@HomerJSmith

I agree with @PC7060 above, It would be nice if all homeowners could be up to speed on mechanical, electrical and plumbing. But they can't be expected to know codes and how thing are done and who is responsible for different parts of a job.

I guess the best they could do is hire a general contractor to oversee things which on a small job would drive the already high price sky high.

We all have to put our trust in professionals who we hope are honest and know what they are doing.

All people are fallible.

Then all of us in the business could study to be Doctors or Artists

ratio

PC7060 said:

@HomerJSmith - it seems absurd to think the buyer (homeowner) has final technical responsibility for a complex installation performed by licensed professionals. 

Not at all. The hope may be that licensing, regulation, etc. weeds out the incompetent & crooked; but experience shows that isn't the case. Other experience shows that allowing the government the control necessary to do that also doesn't solve the problem—and provokes a number of other problems as well. Who's left to have the final responsibility?

ChrisJ

ratio said:

PC7060 said:

@HomerJSmith - it seems absurd to think the buyer (homeowner) has final technical responsibility for a complex installation performed by licensed professionals. 

Not at all. The hope may be that licensing, regulation, etc. weeds out the incompetent & crooked; but experience shows that isn't the case. Other experience shows that allowing the government the control necessary to do that also doesn't solve the problem—and provokes a number of other problems as well. Who's left to have the final responsibility?

So you're saying licensing, regulation, code etc is a pointless waste of money and resources?

Jamie Hall

Whoa folks. Both licensing and regulation -- in their various forms -- set a floor for performance of some particular device or the execution of some particular trade or activity. A FLLOR. The minimum that can be required to avoid some form of major or minor disaster. They neither can, nor ever will, determine what a craftsman should do, or a a real master craftsman can do. Nor, for a device or machine, what a really fine machine can do vs. a minimum spec. piece of junk.

We all know that, so relax.

Now back the OP's problem. We don't have enough information. There were three tasks invovled. One, purchase and supply a generator to certain specifications. Two, connect wires from the generator terminals to the building power system. Three, connect the generator fuel input to a fuel source. Only the first of those tasks involves setting the generator up to produce a specific voltage and current and frequency when fed a specific fuel. Only the first one. I will cheerfully grant that both the electrician -- second task -- and fuel supplier -- third task -- should have checked (is this thing generating the kind of power you want? Does it use the fuel which will be supplied?), unless those checks were written into their contract they had no obligation to do so.

Was a general contractor needed? No, that's overkill. But the purchaser should have ensured that either the electrician, the retailer of the generator, or the gas supplier had overall responsibility for proper commissioning of the unt. And, evidently, no one did.

ChrisJ

@Jamie Hall
I feel code is required because I see how many things were done in my own home over the years. It would've been nice if they had followed some more modern rules.

However, I often see code being quoted as the minimum on here as if it's a bad thing if you follow it and don't go beyond. The thing is, my own floor joists are 2x8's over a 16' span 24" OC. Well below modern code, and yet they're still there 150+ years later.

Many rules in code may be labeled as "minimum" yet they're far more than adequate. Especially rules in the NEC. Just because they are labeled as the minimum allowed by code does not mean it's not more than enough. More often than not, it means the appropriate amount necessary and going beyond it is wasteful.

Probably the only time building code isn't more than adequate is when a guy comes in and frames a floor and then a plumber comes in and cuts half of it out to install a toilet and claims "That stuff wasn't necessary anyway". Like knocking out bridging, cutting a joist and just leaving it hanging.......

GGross

@ChrisJ

Some parts of building code don't necessarily have to do with the performance of the structure itself, some pieces of code exist to assist first responders (firefighters mainly) Recently there was an argument over a landscaped staircase on a house in my county and why it needed handrails (yes I am boring and read construction board of appeals minutes for...fun). The code in that case exists because if you were to require medical assistance the hospital staff responding to your house may need to make use of a handrail to steady themselves carrying either equipment, or a person up or down the stairs. Similarly the use of plastic hangers for steel pipe is not allowed because they would melt too quickly in a fire and potentially hurt or impede firefighters in an emergency.

I can't say specifically why the code changed in the case you mentioned, but it is quite possible it has something to do with something other than the function of the house.

ChrisJ

GGross said:

@ChrisJ

Some parts of building code don't necessarily have to do with the performance of the structure itself, some pieces of code exist to assist first responders (firefighters mainly) Recently there was an argument over a landscaped staircase on a house in my county and why it needed handrails (yes I am boring and read construction board of appeals minutes for...fun). The code in that case exists because if you were to require medical assistance the hospital staff responding to your house may need to make use of a handrail to steady themselves carrying either equipment, or a person up or down the stairs. Similarly the use of plastic hangers for steel pipe is not allowed because they would melt too quickly in a fire and potentially hurt or impede firefighters in an emergency.

I can't say specifically why the code changed in the case you mentioned, but it is quite possible it has something to do with something other than the function of the house.

The code changed because 2x8's 24"OC over a 16' span isn't enough, but a lot. The floors bounce, a good amount. They work........ but I'd like a little more beef. I think life was very different in the 1860s-70s. People were trying to survive, not live a life of luxury.
But, that's another story.


Rather, it didn't change, it was created.
My point was, it's called the minimum, but really it's more than enough under most conditions.

Good point about firefighters etc. There's times we do not normally think of that code hopefully does.

ratio

Seems like we're arguing about whether the problem is solved, or the problem is just made better.My argument that it is not solved, and in fact can't be solved—but it is certainly made better. An unfortunate result is that there are edge cases like this. And they're unavoidable.

Fortunately, we have lawyers to settle it in the end...

Jamie Hall

The problems with codes or regulations usually arise when the code goes beyond what is required for health and safety -- like, not falling down or something. When they veer off into aesthetics or simple preferences -- a lot of homeowner's associations do this -- they become problematic.

I'm amused by the comment on wooden floor joists. The problem there is two fold: first, various species of wood have very different strength and elasticity characteristics. Some hardwoods -- chestnut, for instance, which was commonly used 150 years ago -- have shear and bending strengths as much as five times what modern fast growth pine and fir does. Second, the modern codes (which are based on southern pine or douglas fir or "hem/fir" also take into account deflection, which wasn't really worried about a couple of centuries ago. Old floors can be astonishingly springy (and to modern sensitivity, quite scary!) but perfectly strong for the purpose -- but putting drywall on a ceiling under such a floor just isn't going to work, so modern codes limit deflection to 1/360th of the span at full load. Older floors may be as flexy as 1/90th -- four times as much.

As for other crafts -- or even later carpenters -- cutting notches in joists or rafters or even posts... well, sometimes you get lucky and the structural redundancies don't catch up to you. Sometimes not so muc...

HomerJSmith

OK, maybe I had a burr under my saddle.

@HomerJSmith - it seems absurd to think the buyer (homeowner) has final technical responsibility for a complex installation performed by licensed professionals.

Ed:

I agree with @PC7060 above, It would be nice if all homeowners could be up to speed on mechanical, electrical and plumbing.

I would agree, but I don't think we are talking about that.

I ask a ton of questions when making a service call. 1 in 20 homeowners will ask me questions. Most just want it fixed. I always explain in detail what failed and why it failed mostly to glazed over eyeballs.

So, who's responsible? The guy that hooked up the propane if you want to point fingers. Did you hurt the generator--No, probably not.

HomerJSmith

ratio--

Not at all. The hope may be that licensing, regulation, etc. weeds out the incompetent & crooked; but experience shows that isn't the case.

Like Ya!

Other experience shows that allowing the government the control necessary to do that also doesn't solve the problem

Like Ya, again. The Contractor's Board in California came out with a TV commercial stating that 25% of their complaints were about unlicensed contractors. I had to laff. It means that 75% of the complaints were about licensed contractors.

Most people don't know how licensing got started in this country. It started in Massachusetts to keep the Irish and minorities out of the trades, which is why the Irish became policemen and firemen. Contrary to public thinking, the Contractor Boards are there to protect the contractor. As a contractor friend of mine use to say, "Were contractors with the emphasis on the CON." He was a funny guy.

I'm reminded of what Priscilla Presley said to Ricardo Montalbán in the movie The Naked Gun: From the Files of Police Squad! "How can you be so cruel?" She said. "It's easy, my dear, I was a Building Contractor for two years." Funny movie.

ChrisJ--

So you're saying licensing, regulation, code etc is a pointless waste of money and resources?

Of course not. It provides a good living for all those on the Contractor's Board and all their minion enforcers.

I'm for Guilds and their stamp of approval on qualification and an open market. The customer can choose whom they want to do business with.

Mad Dog_2

Unfortunately, every home and building owner can do exhaustive research but still must take a leap of faith.  Its all about "connecting" with the Guy you hire.  I've been on the losing end as a homeowner and contractor.  Some people don't Really want the blunt truth laid out for them...(they want everything in a nice neat package that they don't have to think about).  I lost a 6000 s.f. radiant home that  I spent 3 hours going over everything with the HO on.  A free design session it was!  Walked him through each phase, detail, et al.  He let me know a week later, that he was grateful for the time and education I gave him, but that he picked another guy he was "More comfortable with..."   Damn! What did I do wrong??  I moved on.  6 months later, he calls me BEGGING to take the job over.  "Everything you told me was true...I should've  listened to you.!"   The Winning bidder took a 50 K deposit, sent unqualified subs, laid the tubing very haphazardly, in many spots 14-16" on center, excessively long loops, a TOTAL mess....and guess what ? Huge granite slabs covering everything...AND only one picture of the tubing!   The winning bidder was a good Bull-S----  I guess.  He never saw him again and never got a return phone call, let alone $$ refunded. He got beat by his "plumbers" too...They ran 1/2" gas pipe from the outlet of the meter throughout the WHOLE house...Viking stove, 3 gas fireplaces, gas BBQ cooking station...Alot of walls were opened... We worked alot of magic for him  and he was grateful that we salvaged the system and  the situation.  As a Homeowner, gut renovating my Victorian Farmhouse, I had a few favors owed to me by fellow contractors whom I had worked with for years that I did Pro Bono work for.    Two of them weaseled out of doing any real work and sent helpers in their place.   Barter rarely works out.  The roofer, I had to physically throw him off the property, pay his guys directly to finish and do the copper flashings myself. (And, he did a very good job on my neighbors roof..a very simple roof vis-a-vis my Victorian with Cupolas...The intricacies and the heat 🔥 of August melted his brain!  Recommendations don't always pan out either.  I try to only hire companies that the owner is doing the actual work or atleast,  at the job all day,  directing the men,  closely.  I cherish the really good craftsman that I CAN really recommend wholeheartedly.  Mad Dog 

HomerJSmith

Wow! You prove my point.

Zman

I had a very similar thing happen about 10 years ago. In that case, the factory rep did the startup and did not notice the conversion was not done (everyone makes mistakes now and then ). We figured out what happened a few months later when the client complained about the smoke and lack of power.
Once it was properly converted it ran great and still does today.

Mad Dog_2

You learn the hard way.  When doing any job I look at EVERYTHING that my work could possibly affect including, what's hanging on the opposite wall I'm about to open up...precious Family heirlooms? Sentimental decorative Plates, Elvis Yadros..Ask me how I know...Current .CODES and licensing are the baseline, bare minimum requirements.  They are not a paradigm.  Some States and municipalities have very proactive and tough Licensing exams AND continuing education requirements during the year. I am 100% on board with this.    I'm working on bringing that in to our County municipalities.  This is why professional Contractor Organizations are ideal...for ANY trade..even painting.  You pay a membership fee, but you are sitting with the top people in your industry every month  for dinner and presentations on the latest products, code changes, Scuttlebutt and gossip.  Can't beat it.  You gotta be in the Loop when you're doing this for a living. Especially a trade that affects Life Safety and Health.  In our region, we have The Long Island PHCC and NYC Master Plumbers Council but very active, on the ball contractor organizations.  Mad Dog 🐕 

EBEBRATT-Ed

I was sent out to start up three new Trane roof tops a few years ago. I get on the roof and I am looking at the gas pipe that seems awful small. As I walked up to the first unit I am thinking "propane". I checked the unit nameplate and it said natural gas.

Climbed down and found the propane tank. Back to the units I opened them up and found no evidence of any conversion being done or any paperwork about a conversion or any (paperwork at all). These had the Trane negative pressure in shot burners.


So I checked the incoming gas pressure at the burners and it was 11"wc as it should be so I lit one off just for a second and it sure wasn't right.

So i called Trane and they said all you have to do is change the spring in the factory gas valve/reg.
So they said they would ship them so I disable the units so no one could start them.


I kept asking the shipping/receiving guy at the shop "where are my springs" Trane say they were delivered to our shop.

We had Trane ship them a second time. Three little springs in a little plastic zip bag got lost again (1000,000 square foot shop with 25 trucks)

Finally located on one of the trucks dashboards in NY. My job was in MA but I finally got them. The shipping/receiver guy was a great guy but they replaced him

Mad Dog_2

Typical story.  That happens alot in large operations..Mad Dog 🐕 

ratio

Mad Dog_2 said:

Typical story.  That happens alot in large operations..Mad Dog 🐕 

It happens a lot in middling operations, too. Only difference is the distance. <sigh>

Jamie Hall

It can even happen on one relatively small farm.