Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.

The weeks case, The case of the angry engineer

Options
RayWohlfarth
RayWohlfarth Member Posts: 1,552
In this weeks case, we were called to a school and the complaint was one area was cool. The system was a hydronic system with zone pumps for different areas. The cool area was one zone. When the tech arrived, he discovered a wide temperature swing from the supply and return pipes. The cause for the wide delta t may be obvious but like in real life, there is a back story.
Ray Wohlfarth
Boiler Lessons

Comments

  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 1,238
    edited May 2023
    Options
    @RayWohlfarth - another good one! I assume the flow rates were checked? Possibly the wrong size tubing sized or installed in this zone or if previously working is it possible someone mounted equipment to the concrete floor with bolts which compressed the tubing? 
    Either situation would make for an angry engineer! 
    I appreciate your Wednesday’s puzzles. Keeps the week moving. 
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,384
    Options
    Hmmm, Questions. Who was the engineer trying to make uncomfortable and why? :|

    Yours, Larry
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 5,887
    Options
    The zones are all some type of fin tube baseboard and somebody piped in a hydro coil before it gets to the baseboard?
    Saw one just the other day.
  • dko
    dko Member Posts: 642
    edited May 2023
    Options
    Was the engineer angry during the planning or after the installation :*
    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,792
    Options
    The engineer was angry because the head installer was leaving his coffee cups lying around the job site, so one day he wadded up a cup and stuffed it into one of the not-yet-completed loops where it dramatically reduced the flow rate in that loop.

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    CLamb
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,941
    Options
    I think this needs more information. Could be the wrong size circulator, could be some debris like a rag in the piping, could be a partially closed valve, could be a damaged or the wrong impeller in the circulator, could be wrong sized piping, could be air bound such that there is some flow but not enough. It is most likely not enough flow but there are a lot of possibilites why.

    Was this something that was always a problem or did it just happen one day or over time?
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,102
    Options
    3 phase pump with wrong rotation.
    mattmia2
  • retiredguy
    retiredguy Member Posts: 929
    Options
    Geeze Ray, this must be a new job but you mentioned a back story; (??) My first guess would be an engineering snafu. Maybe a wrong pump, wrong rotation, wrong impeller or a line restriction. I will be curious to hear the "back story", this could get interesting.

    One time I made a fatal mistake and pointed out to the design engineer that he made a mistake in his calculations. Even though I was right and he was not he was furious that I, not being an Engineer would accuse him of making a mistake. He never again would allow my company to bid any of his jobs.

    It is amazing to see how many stupid mistakes are engineered into these jobs. Can't wait for your answer.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
    Options
    Easy way to make an engineer angry is to say..."I disagree with you"...

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

    CLambEdTheHeaterMan
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,913
    Options

    Easy way to make an engineer angry is to say..."I disagree with you"...

    Why do so many appear to dislike engineers?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    mattmia2EdTheHeaterManhot_rod
  • dko
    dko Member Posts: 642
    edited May 2023
    Options
    ChrisJ said:

    Easy way to make an engineer angry is to say..."I disagree with you"...

    Why do so many appear to dislike engineers?
    In my experience it has to do with engineers designing something without being in the field. Designing with tight clearances that fit on a floor plan but not where a human can actually do the work. Copy pasting specs that were standard 50 years ago. Not budging on equals when there is no difference except for the brand name. Best place to sell your product is during engineering school so they specify it in the future.

    The most common disagreement that comes up is them using the AO smith water heater calculator/expansion tank calculator that always recommends the (A) ASME version. So they specify the ASME version of the water heater/expansion tank without actually knowing that the A stood for ASME which doubles the cost and lead time.

    One recent one was where the engineer specified a 240 gallon condensate tank replacement based on the existing one. But didn't consider that you can't even get it in the building now since the original was put in while being built.
    ChrisJratiopecmsgEdTheHeaterMan
  • Pumpguy
    Pumpguy Member Posts: 669
    Options
    Some years ago I was told, by a very knowledgeable and long experienced sales engineer of pumping equipment for steam heating applications, about a conversation he was having with a consulting engineer about a certain upcoming boiler room renovation job at a large high school.

    The consulting engineer is reported to have told the sales engineer " I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR EXPERTISE, THIS IS THE WAY I WANT IT"
    Dennis Pataki. Former Service Manager and Heating Pump Product Manager for Nash Engineering Company. Phone: 1-888 853 9963
    Website: www.nashjenningspumps.com

    The first step in solving any problem is TO IDENTIFY THE PROBLEM.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,913
    edited May 2023
    Options
    Pumpguy said:

    Some years ago I was told, by a very knowledgeable and long experienced sales engineer of pumping equipment for steam heating applications, about a conversation he was having with a consulting engineer about a certain upcoming boiler room renovation job at a large high school.

    The consulting engineer is reported to have told the sales engineer " I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR EXPERTISE, THIS IS THE WAY I WANT IT"


    Well.
    Let's be honest.

    There's also the fact as I'm sure you know, that everyone has an opinion. We don't know the consulting engineer's side of the story.

    While we're on the subject, I've seen the word engineer used an awful lot these days. I'm pretty sure I saw someone refer to themselves as a "furniture relocation engineer" once.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    GGrossdkoEdTheHeaterMan
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 2,511
    Options
    Someone needs to turn on a valve or get a larger pump?

    When dealing with an engineer, I have an approach that has been very successful. After stating my objection, criticism, or whatnot, I always end and say, "What do you think?" Magic words. I learned that from a woman that I was having a discussion with in a curtain shop. I could have gotten down and kissed her feet, I was so moved that somebody would ask my opinion.

    It worked so well with Inspectors.
    Larry WeingartenCLamb
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,941
    Options
    Something always comes up that was missed no matter who designs something. I don't know why everyone acts surprised when it happens and then has no plan to change it. you try to make sure the things that would be difficult to change are right,
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,941
    Options
    ChrisJ said:


    While we're on the subject, I've seen the word engineer used an awful lot these days. I'm pretty sure I saw someone refer to themselves as a "furniture relocation engineer" once.

    I see this a lot in AV, people calling themselves engineers who do not actually have engineering degrees. Taking a bunch of manufacturers' classes isn't equal to learning the science that goes behind it...

    ok, so i'm the only one that is actually an engineer involved in this thing? and you're only asking me now after it is done and not working?
  • RayWohlfarth
    RayWohlfarth Member Posts: 1,552
    Options
    Thanks for all the great comments and theories. The engineer was angry in this case because my service tech, who was a bit of a prima donna, told the maintenance director that the engineer didnt know what he was he was doing. Not a good idea The maintenance director told the superintendent who called the architect who called the engineer who called me. It was not a good day. The pump for the zone was indeed undersized, which was the reason for the high delta T, but that was because the maintenance tech installed a smaller pump temporarily while the original was being rebuilt. The engineer told me he would never use my boilers and he never did. The one comment by my tech cost my company thousands of dollars. Here is the video
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=gmnzS6H95rU
    Ray Wohlfarth
    Boiler Lessons
    GGrossPC7060
  • RayWohlfarth
    RayWohlfarth Member Posts: 1,552
    Options
    I had some surgery on my mouth, nothing serious, and I used a voiceover for this weeks case. Let me know if you like the voiceover better than mine. Its incredible how far the AI voices have come Thanks
    Ray Wohlfarth
    Boiler Lessons
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 2,511
    edited May 2023
    Options
    I'm for the original. I want the real thing with all it's foibles, kinda a like God sees you. AI is not you, but a polished version what it thinks you want to hear. It's you, Ray, that's important.

    When I was young and smart and I was really smart, I knew everything, at least I thought I did. Now that I'm older and wiser, I see so many of the mistakes I made. I still have a hard time forgiving myself for some of them.
    random12345dkoPC7060
  • dko
    dko Member Posts: 642
    Options
    You can clone your own voice with AI
    GGross
  • Pumpguy
    Pumpguy Member Posts: 669
    Options
    ChrisJ said:

    Pumpguy said:

    Some years ago I was told, by a very knowledgeable and long experienced sales engineer of pumping equipment for steam heating applications, about a conversation he was having with a consulting engineer about a certain upcoming boiler room renovation job at a large high school.

    The consulting engineer is reported to have told the sales engineer " I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR EXPERTISE, THIS IS THE WAY I WANT IT"


    Well.
    Let's be honest.

    There's also the fact as I'm sure you know, that everyone has an opinion. We don't know the consulting engineer's side of the story.

    While we're on the subject, I've seen the word engineer used an awful lot these days. I'm pretty sure I saw someone refer to themselves as a "furniture relocation engineer" once.

    In this particular case, the engineer was wrong. After installing his way, the pumps broke. I was called in to fix the pumps and recommend piping changes.

    After pump repairs and piping changes were made, pumps have been in service for 7 years now, operating with no problems.
    Dennis Pataki. Former Service Manager and Heating Pump Product Manager for Nash Engineering Company. Phone: 1-888 853 9963
    Website: www.nashjenningspumps.com

    The first step in solving any problem is TO IDENTIFY THE PROBLEM.
    ChrisJ
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,166
    Options

    I had some surgery on my mouth, nothing serious, and I used a voiceover for this weeks case. Let me know if you like the voiceover better than mine. Its incredible how far the AI voices have come Thanks


    That is not a fair question Ray! It is like asking if Ben Stein's monotone character in so many movies and other appearances is better than the very animated Ben Stiller in so many other movies. Just because they are both named Ben, does not make them the same at delivering the story.

    You really have a way of placing the emphasis on the issue at hand without the distraction of adding any change in the inflection of your speech pattern, or something that is not part of the story, or even adding any humor or interesting side note in order to hold the interest of the listener. I’m not sure that your listeners could handle that.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • RayWohlfarth
    RayWohlfarth Member Posts: 1,552
    Options
    Thank you sirs! I guess no one thinks their own voice sounds good. I will be back behind the mic for the next one. I appreciate the feedback and your input
    Ray Wohlfarth
    Boiler Lessons
    PC7060
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,913
    Options
    Thank you sirs! I guess no one thinks their own voice sounds good. I will be back behind the mic for the next one. I appreciate the feedback and your input
    Many do not but I'm pretty sure many do.  I've seen artists in videos etc listening to themselves singing and they appear to be able to judge whether they did good or bad.

    I have to assume if they think they did good they must like it.


    I don't know what that means though.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • RayWohlfarth
    RayWohlfarth Member Posts: 1,552
    Options
    Thanks @ChrisJ appreciate it
    Ray Wohlfarth
    Boiler Lessons
  • dko
    dko Member Posts: 642
    edited May 2023
    Options
    The first time I heard my own [adult] voice was when making a voicemail recording and it would play it back to you to confirm. I could not believe I sounded like that and I ended up rerecording in a deeper tone.
    Dave Carpentier