The weeks case, The case of the angry engineer

RayWohlfarth

In this weeks case, we were called to a school and the complaint was one area was cool. The system was a hydronic system with zone pumps for different areas. The cool area was one zone. When the tech arrived, he discovered a wide temperature swing from the supply and return pipes. The cause for the wide delta t may be obvious but like in real life, there is a back story.

PC7060

@RayWohlfarth - another good one! I assume the flow rates were checked? Possibly the wrong size tubing sized or installed in this zone or if previously working is it possible someone mounted equipment to the concrete floor with bolts which compressed the tubing? 

Either situation would make for an angry engineer! 

I appreciate your Wednesday’s puzzles. Keeps the week moving. 

Larry Weingarten

Hmmm, Questions. Who was the engineer trying to make uncomfortable and why?

Yours, Larry

HVACNUT

The zones are all some type of fin tube baseboard and somebody piped in a hydro coil before it gets to the baseboard?
Saw one just the other day.

dko

Was the engineer angry during the planning or after the installation

ethicalpaul

The engineer was angry because the head installer was leaving his coffee cups lying around the job site, so one day he wadded up a cup and stuffed it into one of the not-yet-completed loops where it dramatically reduced the flow rate in that loop.

mattmia2

I think this needs more information. Could be the wrong size circulator, could be some debris like a rag in the piping, could be a partially closed valve, could be a damaged or the wrong impeller in the circulator, could be wrong sized piping, could be air bound such that there is some flow but not enough. It is most likely not enough flow but there are a lot of possibilites why.

Was this something that was always a problem or did it just happen one day or over time?

JUGHNE

3 phase pump with wrong rotation.

retiredguy

Geeze Ray, this must be a new job but you mentioned a back story; (??) My first guess would be an engineering snafu. Maybe a wrong pump, wrong rotation, wrong impeller or a line restriction. I will be curious to hear the "back story", this could get interesting.

One time I made a fatal mistake and pointed out to the design engineer that he made a mistake in his calculations. Even though I was right and he was not he was furious that I, not being an Engineer would accuse him of making a mistake. He never again would allow my company to bid any of his jobs.

It is amazing to see how many stupid mistakes are engineered into these jobs. Can't wait for your answer.

STEVEusaPA

Easy way to make an engineer angry is to say..."I disagree with you"...

ChrisJ

STEVEusaPA said:

Easy way to make an engineer angry is to say..."I disagree with you"...

Why do so many appear to dislike engineers?

dko

ChrisJ said:

STEVEusaPA said:

Easy way to make an engineer angry is to say..."I disagree with you"...

Why do so many appear to dislike engineers?

In my experience it has to do with engineers designing something without being in the field. Designing with tight clearances that fit on a floor plan but not where a human can actually do the work. Copy pasting specs that were standard 50 years ago. Not budging on equals when there is no difference except for the brand name. Best place to sell your product is during engineering school so they specify it in the future.

The most common disagreement that comes up is them using the AO smith water heater calculator/expansion tank calculator that always recommends the (A) ASME version. So they specify the ASME version of the water heater/expansion tank without actually knowing that the A stood for ASME which doubles the cost and lead time.

One recent one was where the engineer specified a 240 gallon condensate tank replacement based on the existing one. But didn't consider that you can't even get it in the building now since the original was put in while being built.

Pumpguy

Some years ago I was told, by a very knowledgeable and long experienced sales engineer of pumping equipment for steam heating applications, about a conversation he was having with a consulting engineer about a certain upcoming boiler room renovation job at a large high school.

The consulting engineer is reported to have told the sales engineer " I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR EXPERTISE, THIS IS THE WAY I WANT IT"

ChrisJ

Pumpguy said:

Some years ago I was told, by a very knowledgeable and long experienced sales engineer of pumping equipment for steam heating applications, about a conversation he was having with a consulting engineer about a certain upcoming boiler room renovation job at a large high school.

The consulting engineer is reported to have told the sales engineer " I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR EXPERTISE, THIS IS THE WAY I WANT IT"

Well.
Let's be honest.

There's also the fact as I'm sure you know, that everyone has an opinion. We don't know the consulting engineer's side of the story.

While we're on the subject, I've seen the word engineer used an awful lot these days. I'm pretty sure I saw someone refer to themselves as a "furniture relocation engineer" once.

HomerJSmith

Someone needs to turn on a valve or get a larger pump?

When dealing with an engineer, I have an approach that has been very successful. After stating my objection, criticism, or whatnot, I always end and say, "What do you think?" Magic words. I learned that from a woman that I was having a discussion with in a curtain shop. I could have gotten down and kissed her feet, I was so moved that somebody would ask my opinion.

It worked so well with Inspectors.

mattmia2

Something always comes up that was missed no matter who designs something. I don't know why everyone acts surprised when it happens and then has no plan to change it. you try to make sure the things that would be difficult to change are right,

mattmia2

ChrisJ said:

While we're on the subject, I've seen the word engineer used an awful lot these days. I'm pretty sure I saw someone refer to themselves as a "furniture relocation engineer" once.

I see this a lot in AV, people calling themselves engineers who do not actually have engineering degrees. Taking a bunch of manufacturers' classes isn't equal to learning the science that goes behind it...

ok, so i'm the only one that is actually an engineer involved in this thing? and you're only asking me now after it is done and not working?

RayWohlfarth

Thanks for all the great comments and theories. The engineer was angry in this case because my service tech, who was a bit of a prima donna, told the maintenance director that the engineer didnt know what he was he was doing. Not a good idea The maintenance director told the superintendent who called the architect who called the engineer who called me. It was not a good day. The pump for the zone was indeed undersized, which was the reason for the high delta T, but that was because the maintenance tech installed a smaller pump temporarily while the original was being rebuilt. The engineer told me he would never use my boilers and he never did. The one comment by my tech cost my company thousands of dollars. Here is the video
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gmnzS6H95rU

RayWohlfarth

I had some surgery on my mouth, nothing serious, and I used a voiceover for this weeks case. Let me know if you like the voiceover better than mine. Its incredible how far the AI voices have come Thanks

HomerJSmith

I'm for the original. I want the real thing with all it's foibles, kinda a like God sees you. AI is not you, but a polished version what it thinks you want to hear. It's you, Ray, that's important.

When I was young and smart and I was really smart, I knew everything, at least I thought I did. Now that I'm older and wiser, I see so many of the mistakes I made. I still have a hard time forgiving myself for some of them.

dko

You can clone your own voice with AI

Pumpguy

ChrisJ said:

Pumpguy said:

Some years ago I was told, by a very knowledgeable and long experienced sales engineer of pumping equipment for steam heating applications, about a conversation he was having with a consulting engineer about a certain upcoming boiler room renovation job at a large high school.

The consulting engineer is reported to have told the sales engineer " I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR EXPERTISE, THIS IS THE WAY I WANT IT"

Well.
Let's be honest.

There's also the fact as I'm sure you know, that everyone has an opinion. We don't know the consulting engineer's side of the story.

While we're on the subject, I've seen the word engineer used an awful lot these days. I'm pretty sure I saw someone refer to themselves as a "furniture relocation engineer" once.

In this particular case, the engineer was wrong. After installing his way, the pumps broke. I was called in to fix the pumps and recommend piping changes.

After pump repairs and piping changes were made, pumps have been in service for 7 years now, operating with no problems.

hot_rod

dko said:

Easy way to make an engineer angry is to say..."I disagree with you"...

Why do so many appear to dislike engineers?

In my experience it has to do with engineers designing something without being in the field. Designing with tight clearances that fit on a floor plan but not where a human can actually do the work. Copy pasting specs that were standard 50 years ago. Not budging on equals when there is no difference except for the brand name. Best place to sell your product is during engineering school so they specify it in the future. The most common disagreement that comes up is them using the AO smith water heater calculator/expansion tank calculator that always recommends the (A) ASME version. So they specify the ASME version of the water heater/expansion tank without actually knowing that the A stood for ASME which doubles the cost and lead time. One recent one was where the engineer specified a 240 gallon condensate tank replacement based on the existing one. But didn't consider that you can't even get it in the building now since the original was put in while being built.

I agree all engineers could benefit from some hands on field experience 

The same for installers embracing more of the engineering side if the how and whys

Ive found folks like Siggy and Robert Bean cross this bridge in a non confrontational way.

It takes a good design and good installation together to get the best results

EdTheHeaterMan

RayWohlfarth said:

I had some surgery on my mouth, nothing serious, and I used a voiceover for this weeks case. Let me know if you like the voiceover better than mine. Its incredible how far the AI voices have come Thanks

That is not a fair question Ray! It is like asking if Ben Stein's monotone character in so many movies and other appearances is better than the very animated Ben Stiller in so many other movies. Just because they are both named Ben, does not make them the same at delivering the story.

You really have a way of placing the emphasis on the issue at hand without the distraction of adding any change in the inflection of your speech pattern, or something that is not part of the story, or even adding any humor or interesting side note in order to hold the interest of the listener. I’m not sure that your listeners could handle that.

RayWohlfarth

Thank you sirs! I guess no one thinks their own voice sounds good. I will be back behind the mic for the next one. I appreciate the feedback and your input

ChrisJ

RayWohlfarth said:

Thank you sirs! I guess no one thinks their own voice sounds good. I will be back behind the mic for the next one. I appreciate the feedback and your input

Many do not but I'm pretty sure many do.  I've seen artists in videos etc listening to themselves singing and they appear to be able to judge whether they did good or bad.

I have to assume if they think they did good they must like it.


I don't know what that means though.

RayWohlfarth

Thanks @ChrisJ appreciate it

dko

The first time I heard my own [adult] voice was when making a voicemail recording and it would play it back to you to confirm. I could not believe I sounded like that and I ended up rerecording in a deeper tone.