Cooper and Hunter Mini Split System

AndrewHern

Hi, I am a bit scared. My contractor is recommending that I install a mini split brand called Cooper and Hunter. Has anybody had any experience with this brand? Are they good? Are they reliable? 

I live in northern nj and my contractor wants to install their hyper heating model. We will be using the system for both are heating and cooling needs. He will be installing multi zone units as it is a two family home, about 2000 sqft in total. Thank you guys. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. 

Andrew 

Hot_water_fan

I'd be wary of a multi-split.

The downsides of multi-splits are awful oversizing which leads to inefficient operation, excessive noise and poor dehumidification.

Do you have existing ductwork? If so, I'd use that. If not, look to add as much as you can. You can often combine smaller zones into one medium ducted zone.

ChrisJ

Hot_water_fan said:

I'd be wary of a multi-split.

The downsides of multi-splits are awful oversizing which leads to inefficient operation, excessive noise and poor dehumidification.

Do you have existing ductwork? If so, I'd use that. If not, look to add as much as you can. You can often combine smaller zones into one medium ducted zone.

How would a system installed with existing ductwork be better than a multisplit in regards to oversizing?
Wouldn't they likely end up with a single zone?

@pecmsg @ratio @GW Have you ever heard of Copper and Hunter?

Hot_water_fan

How would a system installed with existing ductwork be better than a multisplit in regards to oversizing?
Wouldn't they likely end up with a single zone?

That's a good question! It's possible to have a well sized multi-split, it just happens 1 out of every 1000 installations. It's a combination of problems. The first problem is when smallest heat loss rooms receive their own ductless head. Say you have 2 bedrooms upstairs and three other rooms downstairs in a cold climate, with a heat loss of 24kbtu. Do you install the 24kbtu (first link below) that can only support 3 indoor units? That's one per bedroom and one for an entire first floor. That's not terrible, if the layout supports it. This brings us to problem 2. Multi-splits have garbage turndown ratios compared to one-to-one units. This particular 24kbtu unit turns alllll the way down to 17kbtu at 47 degrees. Why even bother? You're short-cycling constantly, especially since the smallest indoor units for the bedrooms would be 6kbtu.

There's a smaller unit, (link 2) which fits better, but only have 2 indoor units. I'd like that one best assuming you can combine the two upstairs using a tiny ducted indoor unit.

If you need a fourth indoor unit (link 3) and want only 1 outdoor unit, you're really in trouble.

In contrast, the ducted 2 ton unit (link 4), gets you the full 23kbtu output at 5 degrees and can still actually modulate, to 9.4kbtu at 47 degrees when it matters and has real dehumidification abilities. The single zones can just modulate so much better than the multisplits can.

If ductless is the only way, the 1-to-1 setup fits much better (link 5). The "6kbtu" unit outputs 10.5kbtu at 5 degrees F and can turn down to 1.6kbtu at 47F. So it actually modulates. However, moisture removal is bad.


1. https://mylinkdrive.com/viewPdf?srcUrl=http://s3.amazonaws.com/enter.mehvac.com/DAMRoot/Original/10006\M_SUBMITTAL_MXZ-3C24NAHZ3_en.pdf

2. https://mylinkdrive.com/viewPdf?srcUrl=http://s3.amazonaws.com/enter.mehvac.com/DAMRoot/Original/10006\M_SUBMITTAL_MXZ-2C20NAHZ3_en.pdf

3. https://mylinkdrive.com/viewPdf?srcUrl=http://s3.amazonaws.com/enter.mehvac.com/DAMRoot/Original/10006\M_SUBMITTAL_MXZ-SM36NAMHZ_en.pdf

4. https://mylinkdrive.com/viewPdf?srcUrl=http://s3.amazonaws.com/enter.mehvac.com/DAMRoot/Original/10006\M_SUBMITTAL_SVZ-KP24NA_SUZ-KA24NAHZ_en.pdf

5. https://mylinkdrive.com/viewPdf?srcUrl=http://s3.amazonaws.com/enter.mehvac.com/DAMRoot/Original/10006\M_SUBMITTAL_MSZ-FS06NA_MUZ-FS06NAH_en.pdf

ethicalpaul

Looks like a Chinese manufacturer wanted an English name:

"In 2017, the company entered into definitive agreements for a long-term strategic partnership with Zhuhai Vino Environmental Technology Equipment Co. LTD., which took on the new name: Zhuhai Vino – Cooper&Hunter Environmental Technology Equipment Co."

the web site looks like it was slapped together by someone's nephew.

None of this is necessarily a statement about the quality of their systems, but I'd rather spend the money on a fujitsu or a mitsubishi with a rock solid warranty that is going to be around for awhile.

I too would hesitate using mini split as primary HVAC in northern jersey but not because of any problem with the sizing or noise (I've never heard any mini split anywhere make hardly above a whisper), but because of the reduced efficiency as temps drop.

I assume their "hyper" word is meant to indicate it can handle down to very low temps, but I'm just not there yet (and I'm a huge proponent of heat pump technology generally, just ask the folks here who have to listen to me drone on and on about it).

What is your current heat source in the house?

pecmsg

I've never heard of them. Not impressed with their web site. There are literally 100's of rebadged minis out there. Stick with the known players. Daykin, Mitsubishi, Fujitsu.

What are you doing for back up heat when the mini is down waiting for parts, Sometimes a week or more?

Hot_water_fan

I assume their "hyper" word is meant to indicate it can handle down to very low temps, but I'm just not there yet (and I'm a huge proponent of heat pump technology generally, just ask the folks here who have to listen to me drone on and on about it).

At @ethicalpaul what low temps would a heat pump need to operate to make you comfortable with them?

ethicalpaul

Honestly this comes from a place of ignorance of the newest low temperature tech, but I would be feeling really good with a design day of 25 degrees. If I had a wood stove too I'd be feeling good down to maybe 15 design day (which is roughly Essex County, NJ 99% design day temp).

Regardless I'd be fine with it for every day down to its manufacture-suggested low temperature but I would want some kind of backup/supplemental that was not resistive electric based.

Even though financially and operationally a resistive electric assist or emergency mode makes perfect sense, I just don't like it.

Oh but that's not the question you asked I guess so if that didn't get you what you were asking, try me again.

pecmsg

ethicalpaul said:

Oh but that's not the question you asked I guess so if that didn't get you what you were asking, try me again.

Its a question that Should be asked!

My personal Fujitsu has been down 3 times in 4 years. Longest was 4 days waiting on a circuit board. Fortunately, cooling was down. If that was the winter and I didn't have a backup .............................that's one pissed off Wife to deal with!

Hot_water_fan

@ethicalpaul That's a fine response, thanks. The coldest I've experienced with mine is 8F, it worked just fine. But if it's ducted, it's so easy to add a backup of some sort if it helps people sleep at night.

mattmia2

It seemed like the last time i looked through the low temp operation tables of a heat pump, the cop fell to where it was an electric resistance heater with the compressor motor being the heater around 0 f.

Hot_water_fan

It seemed like the last time i looked through the low temp operation tables of a heat pump, the cop fell to where it was an electric resistance heater with the compressor motor being the heater around 0 f.

It's not good, but it's better than COP of 1. Like COP's of 1.5-2 in the attached links above.

ethicalpaul

Hot_water_fan said:

@ethicalpaul That's a fine response, thanks. The coldest I've experienced with mine is 8F, it worked just fine. But if it's ducted, it's so easy to add a backup of some sort if it helps people sleep at night.

That makes me feel better about air-sourced, thanks! Can you share what make and year it is?

I think I'll always feel even better about ground-source vertical closed-loop systems for places that can get cold. They are just so great and always good efficiency.

Hot_water_fan

@ethicalpaul It's this one, from 2020. GSHP is great, just too expensive for my situation. Paying $20k (?) extra probably would put my breakeven in the next millennia.

https://mylinkdrive.com/viewPdf?srcUrl=http://s3.amazonaws.com/enter.mehvac.com/DAMRoot/Original/10006\M_SUBMITTAL_SVZ-KP24NA_SUZ-KA24NAHZ_en.pdf

GGross

ethicalpaul said:

Honestly this comes from a place of ignorance of the newest low temperature tech, but I would be feeling really good with a design day of 25 degrees. If I had a wood stove too I'd be feeling good down to maybe 15 design day (which is roughly Essex County, NJ 99% design day temp).

Regardless I'd be fine with it for every day down to its manufacture-suggested low temperature but I would want some kind of backup/supplemental that was not resistive electric based.

Even though financially and operationally a resistive electric assist or emergency mode makes perfect sense, I just don't like it.

Oh but that's not the question you asked I guess so if that didn't get you what you were asking, try me again.

LG RED models have rated heating capacities down to -13f and continue to operate until far lower (though they don't have test data to show the output at those temps) and the listed "rated capacity" is based on +5F. Hard to tell where the efficiency ratings are in all of that though, I don't think the modern mini splits from good manufacturers are as bad as many think they are, but they still won't last as long as a nice boiler!


to answer OP question, that brand looks like several others that have popped up, could be fine could be junk. The well known well tested mini split brands are Fujitsu, Daikin, Mitsubishi, LG. I would not be opposed to owning a cheap brand for cooling only however