The main is hot, the radiator is cold, and the heating company can't figure out why.

bmearns

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1744596#Comment_1744596

I don't think we're talking about steam getting all the way back to the boiler's return, but it seems to be finding a path through part of the return pipe up to the main vent, rather than into the radiators. Because of the down pipes coming out of these radiators to the shared return, only the tail end of the shared return needs to be above water for there to be an air path through it. As @dabrakeman mentioned, I don't know why steam would prefer to go there instead of into the radiator but, it seems to be the case.

mattmia2

You can use a string and a line level or a laser level too. I'm not sure if they still make it but they used to make a purpose built water level with a little resevoir and a coil of tubing. Even a string and holding a level near but not moving the center of the string could work.

mattmia2

It looks like the header may be too small. They made a drop header but it looks like the actual header may be smaller than what is required in the manual. Because of that tee arangment between the header and the mains there will be a lot of condensate dropping in to that header, that may be gettign pushed up in to the mains instead of draining to the equalizer.

(get the manual for the boiler from Burnaham's web site, look at the near boiler piping in it. they did a drop header which probably won't be in the manual but that is better than a standard header, but look at the pipe sizes and the names of the parts)

Steamhead

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1744597#Comment_1744597

Maybe the heating company should pay for one of us to come and consult. Where are you located?

bmearns

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1744617#Comment_1744617

If they don't have a better idea, I'm going to ask that they hire an outside expert. I'm located in Albany, NY, so if anyone is actually close by or can recommend someone who is, that might be our best option.

Jamie Hall

The piipe on which you are focussed, @ethicalpaul , isn't the problem. The one I'm worried about is the one with the yellow orange arrow pointing to it in @109A_5 's post a few messages back up the page…

109A_5

Hello @bmearns,

"I keep trying to hint to the techs the only thing that makes sense to
me: there's a "clog" preventing the steam from getting into the
radiator. Maybe sludge build-up, maybe the service valve is bad. I have
no idea, but it just seems like if the steam is getting there but not
getting in, there's something blocking it."

My guess is your blockage (if you want to think about it like that), although it would seem counter-intuitive is air trapped in a place that the system can not purge it properly. The steam has to push the air out. I believe this may be due to the wet return not properly isolating the drips (vertical pipes against the wall) from the radiators. If condensing steam in the drip pipe creates a lower pressure than the radiator and its vent the steam will go there instead, heating the basement instead of the living space as desired.

Sadly, it seems like your contractor does not know how to troubleshoot this situation and if they did, they would have maybe done the install correctly in the first place. The more you know about your system and its proper operation the better off you will be, now and in the future. I don't think anyone here expects you to learn it all in two days, just keep learning.

Steamhead

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1744623#Comment_1744623

@Mad Dog_2 ? @JohnNY ?

KC_Jones

Based on the photos posted, I don't see how the steam is getting into the returns. The harford loop appears to be below the water line and is obvioulsy above the returns as shown in the photos. So if the steam is closing the vents, it's coming from the header end of the main and the discussion to the alternative I feel is a distraction.

There is an obvious lack of main venting. That vent would work well on a radiator, but in my opinion has no business as a main vent, even though it's marketed as such. You need at least a Gorton #2 vent on each main, and maybe more. A single Gorton #2 vents at a rate 10x that of what you have.

You want those mains to fill with steam as quickly as possible. From header hot, to main vents hot and closed should take 5 minutes or less. The whole time that's happening the runouts to radiators should remain mostly cold/cool. At that point all radiators will have steam available and the system can be balanced with the radiator vents.

I'd also be curious what radiator vents they put on. Some of those can be quite aggressive and amplify an issue with a single radiator, due to lack of main venting. If they used the same size on all radiators, you most likely won't be able to balance the system using those.

mattmia2

The venting is inadequate, but it isn't the problem. Inadequate venting won't cause a radator to never heat, just take longer and it especially won't explain why a radiator started to heat a little then stopped durig the cycle.

Does the boiler shut down on pressure as the steam progresses along the mains (I would ask if it is building pressure before the whole main is hot but I know you don't have a 0-3 psig gauge to measure that). If you are dumping a lot of steam in the mains and it isn't condensing in a radiator or pushing air out it will build pressure.

If the steam is progressing very slowly without building pressure it is because it is having to boil off trapped water to progress, if steam encounters liquid water, that water will cool the steam and condense to water, it won't progress past that water until it has heated that water.

EDIT: That water could be getting thrown out of the boiler too.

Now that I think about that tee, if it is leaning one way or the other, all of the water that gets to that tee could be getting thrown in to the main that the tee leans toward so one main could heat ok and the other could not heat at all.

If that tee between the header and the mains it holding water in one side more than the other the side without the water will heat much faster.

mattmia2

But if MadDog, JohnNY or EzzyT will work in your area, any of them can sort it out. It actually it a lot less of a disater than most but they missed a couple details and one or more of them is throwing the whole thing off.

Jamie Hall

One simple question and I can't get an answer… really?

109A_5

You may find this article interesting.

https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/what-causes-water-hammer/

I would do the pipe insulation myself and save $$$, not hard to do. However before insulating check the pitch, correct any issues and verify the pipes are properly supported.

As a crude timing reference for you (our systems are a bit different). I let my system cool for about 45 minutes. closed the valve to the main vent. 37 feet of one insulated main. The boiler got steam to the begining of the main in about 2 minutes, then very close to an additional 5 minutes for the main to heat to the far end. The 5 minutes is normally less with the main vent working.

If all the runouts are piped this way there is probally not much water puddling in the main unless there is a serious sag or just no pitch between runouts.

jdirenzo

Clean the boiler water and vent it properly, and slit the two supply's.

Cleaning the boiler water can take some time.

BobC

The pronlem is once the installer has your money you will be last on his things to do list and at some point you will drop off that list. I can tell you if he knew what to do he would have done it, he doesn't and now he's stumbling around trying to fix it.

The number of real steam guys shrinks every year and that forces us homeowners to understand how it all works so we can assist the heating guy while he's trying to figure 'why did i accept this job"?

Shane_2

Been following this thread for a few days.

I agree you need more main venting, I think the bulls-head tee should be removed and each main connected seperately to the header.

If I was on the job, I would be looking very hard at the condensate return piping being clogged. I have had this happen on jobs before especially with the reduced size on the copper and the straight tees used on the copper.

This could checked by carefully feeling all the return piping through out a heating cycle. I think you will find one section that stays cooler than the rest.

dabrakeman

I keep going back to the fact that you say everything was "working well" before the boiler change. Would you or your installer happen to have any pictures of the original boiler and piping??? Would you even know the original boiler make and model vs the current one? We can point out numerous things that are "wrong" with the current system as you have it but other than potential water level which Jamie has been trying to get at I don't know what else has or hasn't "changed" as a result of the boiler install.

1. Can you verify at least that both returns tie in below the min water line back by the boiler (arrow 3 in the below picture)? If not there will be some discussion and even if they are below near the boiler but further up the return line they are above water level then there will be also be discussion. However, if the entire return is below water line then each drip is essentially "plugged" from the standpoint of being a path to drive air out back through an unclosed main vent. That said there are systems with drips tying into main extensions well above the water line that work fine (like mine). In this case when the steam is advancing air can still only escape the system two ways, via the main vents or the radiator vents. If steam reaches the tee at the end of the runout and the main vent is still not closed then the steam has a decision. The path down the drip, through the return toward the main may be less resistance if that drip to return junction is not under water. That said we shouldn't (in most cases) see steam at the end of the runout before the main is closed if the main is properly vented. I actually did move my main vents from the ends of the returns to the ends of the mains due to this issue since I had a very short "loop" off of one of my mains where steam could travel 4 feet down a main, enter a drip from a radiator just above the boiler and travel 4 feet back to the main vent at the end of the return. That would occur before 3/4 of the 30ft of that main got steam. That was solved by moving the main vents. I mention this only to illustrate that steam can take "a" path through the drips and a "dry…" return back to the main vent. In your case assuming you do not have a sag in a supply line blocking steam with water you may be able to resolve your issues with just increasing the main venting so the main vent is closed well before steam gets to the drip tee on a runout. You need to do this anyway even if the immediate problem resides elsewhere so might as well go ahead and do it. Start with at least a Gorton #2 on both.
2. Couple observations on the piping. Looking at the relative position of the main vs the floor joists at the boiler (arrows #1 in picture below) vs out toward the ends (second picture) it appears your mains are counterflow (slope upwards as move away from the boiler). Can we assume they always were and that they didn't get repitched during the boiler install (back to the "before pictures"🙂? There will be a lot of condensate flowing back down those mains which I think the experts would tell you should have a drip of their own back closer to the boiler. I have a bull head tee in my (working) system like yours (didn't get involved here until that was all done…) but my mains are parallel flow. I would imagine with all that condensate in your situation the bull head coupled with higher steam velocity from what appears to be an undersized header (arrows #3) could cause some detrimental effects. Also, the pipe I have a red arrow pointing to in the 2nd picture hopefully it pitches toward the return and not toward the main. (of course this wouldn't have changed just due to the boiler install…)
3. Insulating may help some and eventually you will want to do it but I wouldn't insualate until the root of the problems are fixed. Harder to check for sags, pitch and steam advance once insulated.

mattmia2

From the drop down to the returns at the vents it looks like it is supposed to be parallel flow. If they dropped one or both of the mains at the boiler when the replaced the boiler such that it no longer slopes toward the returns at the far end, that will cause a problem, so another check is to take a level and make sure the mains slope toward the vents and drips to the wet returns.

JUGHNE

I also noticed the steam mains above the boiler seem to look counterflow.

But they are perpendicular below the floor joists and other steam piping is up parallel between the floor joists.

How about some pictures of the end of the pipes coming right from the boiler, before they change and turn 90 degrees between the floor joists?

Could the installer pulled those mains down to make them pitch down towards the boiler?

bmearns

Trying to work my way through all the ideas and questions. @Jamie Hall did you have a question that didn't get answered?

@BobC Fortunately, we haven't paid them in full yet. We paid them a down payment, but there's still some outstanding balance. We have an implicit agreement with them that the job isn't done until we have heat, so they don't get the rest of the money. We'll see how long they remain cooperative in that regard.

Most of you seem to agree that venting is a significant issue (despite some disagreement on whether or not it's the primary issue here). I don't think the folks we're working with here are familiar with the main venting concepts the Dead Men Steam School presents, they mostly talk about balancing the system by reducing venting closer to the boiler. I'm going to push them hard to put the Gorton #2's on each main as a starting point. If the steam still can't travel quickly through the pipe, then clearly there are some additional issues.

@mattmia2, your idea about water trapped in the main sounds like it could match what I'm seeing. Heat moves through the main, but slowly and inconsistently. In many cases, the very top of the main pipe is hot while the bottom is cold.

@dabrakeman Unfortunately, I don't have any before pictures, and didn't think to make a note of the old boiler before they hauled it away. I haven't read through the rest of your post yet, I'll take a closer read after work.

dabrakeman

@bmearns Could you delete your payment values. That is not permitted on the forum. You can talk about what you pay for "stuff" but not what a contractor is paid for a job in my understanding.

Jamie Hall

Well, yes I did — I want to know the relative elevation of any return pipes with respect to the boiler water level elevation. At both ends…

mattmia2

Another possibility is it may be a hybrid of parallel flow and coutner flow. There may be a section in the middle that is the high point and condenstate flows toward the boiler and toward the returns in opposite directions from that point. With that weird tee if there are any radiators on the counterflow section (if it is set up that way) it is especially imortant that there are drips before the boiler to remove the condensate before it gets caught in that tee. Are there perhaps drips further out that we don't see that are now above the water line?

bmearns

@dabrakeman Yes of course, good catch. I deleted them from my post.

@Jamie Hall sorry, there's been a lot of posts with a lot of questions. The relative elevation isn't a simple question for me to answer, I don't have the tools on hand to measure this, not even a suitable garden hose. I can eyeball it, the shared return does seem to be underwater, at least where it meets the down returns from the radiators. If true, I guess that means there's no path for steam to enter the return, so maybe it's hot water after all.

MaxMercy

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1744947#Comment_1744947

You can put an app on your phone that makes a reasonable level.

AdmiralYoda

Have you calculated your EDR yet? No tools required and it is much easier than you may think. Essentially step 1 in figuring out what boiler size you need. Shouldn't take more than 15 minutes or so.

I'm very curious as to what your calculated EDR is vs the steam capacity of the boiler.

bmearns

Well, they finally sent someone out to actually measure the radiators. He wasn't familiar with the term EDR but he did have some handy dandy book that gave him some charts and formulas and he came up with the required BTUs and found that the brand new boiler was undersized. So they're getting us a new new boiler to replace the old new boiler.

ethicalpaul

I strongly advise caution. An undersized boiler is as rare as a tax error in your favor, especially if the guy doing the measuring hasn't heard of EDR

KC_Jones

bmearns said:

Well, they finally sent someone out to actually measure the radiators. He wasn't familiar with the term EDR but he did have some handy dandy book that gave him some charts and formulas and he came up with the required BTUs and found that the brand new boiler was undersized. So they're getting us a new new boiler to replace the old new boiler.

In all seriousness, we can help you calculate this to double check. It's super easy to do. And the fact that you say he didn't know about EDR is a red flag the size of Texas.

I'm with Paul on this one and undersized boiler is rare and in my opinion highly unlikely.

If it is undersized, great you've confirmed things and they will change it out. If it's not undersized they will change everything out, you will still have all the problems you do now, and the new problem of an oversized boiler.

pecmsg

bmearns said:

Well, they finally sent someone out to actually measure the radiators. He wasn't familiar with the term EDR but he did have some handy dandy book that gave him some charts and formulas and he came up with the required BTUs and found that the brand new boiler was undersized. So they're getting us a new new boiler to replace the old new boiler.

If he doesn’t know what EDR is tell him to leave!

I’ve got $100 says it’s NOT undersized!

mattmia2

It would have to be grossly undersized for your problem to be size. If it is a little undersized it might cause a little bit of a balance problem.

bmearns

Thanks for the feedback folks. The only reason I'm less skeptical that the rest of you is because they never measured the radiators in the first place! But your point(s) stand, so I'm going to doublecheck the sizing.

Is this an accurate resource or can anyone recommend a better one? https://smithfieldsupply.com/company_info/forms/radiatorest.pdf

bmearns

Just to elaborate a little: the explanation is that system doesn't have enough power for the steam to make it all the way to the end of the main or the far radiators before it cools off and condenses. Now, with my limited understanding of all of this, that makes some sense to me. I'm imagining the difference between a wisp of steam and a heavy stream of steam: the wisp (from an undersized boiler?) isn't going to have as much energy to give up to the pipes before it cools and condenses; a heavy stream starts with a lot more energy, so it can afford to give some up to the pipes and still have enough to remain steam all the way out.

Now you're saying an undersized boiler is unlikely to cause the problems we're having, and I believe you. But I'd like to understand what I (and the heating company) am missing about this. I'm reading "The Lost Art of Steam Heating", but I haven't made it very far yet.

mattmia2

That will get you in the ballpark if you correctly match up your radiators to that style. There are people here that can find you the exact table from the manufacturer if you post pictures and sizes. If they are all the same style and just different sizes if you post one someone can probably find you the table for that series.

This has most of the tables in it but maybe you can get someone else to look it up for you if you only need it once:
https://heatinghelp.com/store/detail/e-d-r-ratings-for-every-darn-radiator-and-convector-youll-probably-ever-see

I think there is a thread of tables for radiators that aren't in the book here somewhere too.

mattmia2

I don't remember, do you know what size the old boiler was? Unless this is significantly smaller and it was the correct size, once again, size isn't the problem.

bmearns

Unfortunately, I don't know the size of the old boiler. I know physically the old boiler was a bit larger, but I'm assuming that doesn't have much significance.

The one that's currently there (the "old new" one) is the Burnham Independence IN4I from U.S. Boiler (datasheet). If I'm reading this right, it's rated to produce 87,000 BTUs per hour, which probably won't mean very much until I can measure all my radiators, which I'm hoping to do tonight or tomorrow.

KC_Jones

https://www.weil-mclain.com/sites/default/files/field-file/Weil-McLain_BoilerReplacementGuide_WM2012-web_0.pdf

There are more options in this one, start on page 9.

They don't know EDR, the obviously don't know venting, I'm sure the list of what they don't know is longer than what they do.

I would trust exactly zero of what they say. I'd say I have a better chance of diagnosing your problem than they do, without even coming to your house.

EDR, is like the very first thing anyone learns about steam. And to elaborate further, EDR is a thing for hot water systems too. This is an extremely common thing.

If you went to a mechanic with your car, would you trust them if they said they didn't know what wheels were? Yes that's where you are with this system right now. EDR is like the wheels on a car, seriously.

Let's get a proper EDR calculation and see where you are at. It may be undersized, but even if it is, doing it yourself will ensure the guy that doesn't know what he's doing, accidently did it correctly or not.

KC_Jones

It doesn't work this way, but out of curiosity, how many square feet is the house?

bmearns

KC_Jones said:

It doesn't work this way, but out of curiosity, how many square feet is the house?

Around 1800~1900 square feet. I finished measuring the second floor radiators, came up with 206 square feet of EDR. I'll be surprised in the first floor is less than that. If it's 240 BTUH per sq ft EDR, I'm close to, if not over 100 MBH requirement. So it does seem (to me) that the boiler they put in is likely undersized at 87 MBH. Whether or not that's the only problem, I'm guessing not.

mattmia2

You also have to be very careful about how you use the generic charts, getting the wrong style or measuring from the wrong points can throw your calculations way off.