Interesting (Webster) System Problems Today.

JohnNY

This system is unique in that it was converted many years ago from being energized by an oil fired boiler now to NYC's Con Edison district steam. According to the owners, aside from the unexpected high cost of the steam, the system has "worked well for years". Everyone has their own definition of working well. Some don't have anything to compare it to.
Lately, the system has been spewing lots of steam and condensate out of the air vents accompanied by a great deal of noises that are new to the residents.
This one's going to be interesting and I'm looking forward to getting it straightened out as best I can considering I may be limited to how low I can get the pressure and the fact that all the condensate is dumped into the sewer at every cycle.

Jamie Hall

You do get the winners, don't you?

Steamhead

@Gordo has a lot of experience with these- Baltimore has district steam too.

Mad Dog_2

I love 💘 it...you'll figure it out, John. Looks like asbestos...that always complicates things  ..Keep us apprised .  Mad Dog

mattmia2

Wonder how many people thinkin about keeping the water line in the returns up high enough to keep the water seals when dumping the condensate in the sewer.

mattmia2

I wonder if one could solve the problems of corrosion and pressure with a steam to steam hx and keeping the house system a mostly closed system and using the higher pressure district steam to make steam in the house system through a hx.

Mad Dog_2

Cutting my teeth in thr World Famous Rockefeller Center in the mid 80s,  it always bothered me, as a Water Conservationist , the copius amount of waste steam and condensate that occurred.  Can't we do SOMETHING with all the condensate besides waste it in to the NYC sanitary system AND overload the Sewage treatment plants??  The newer codes have addressed this and some buildings are up to speed and re-purposing the waste water.  Eager to see what you find Johnny NY.  Mad Dog

Mad Dog_2

I LOVE that original mixing valve thingee on that tank.  If you cut it out, I will personally take it out to the Heating museum at Suffolk CC.  Mad 🐕 Dog

JohnNY

Mad Dog_2 said:

Cutting my teeth in thr World Famous Rockefeller Center in the mid 80s,  it always bothered me, as a Water Conservationist , the copius amount of waste steam and condensate that occurred.  Can't we do SOMETHING with all the condensate besides waste it in to the NYC sanitary system AND overload the Sewage treatment plants??  The newer codes have addressed this and some buildings are up to speed and re-purposing the waste water.  Eager to see what you find Johnny NY.  Mad Dog

Matt, a lot of people, including we at the General Society of Mechanics and Tradesmen run the hot condensate through a pre-heater heat exchanger donated by Taco before the cold water gets to our electric water heater, which now never turns on. We recover enough heat from our condensate that we never need to make domestic hot water with any other source (in the heating months).

Mad Dog_2

That's what I like to hear, Johnny. I still haven't gotten to see that basement steam handiwork you, Alex the Wire Nut and Dan did at The General Society....I hope we have time to finally see it the next we're both at a Lecture. It would be cool. Mad Dog

jumper

mattmia2 said:

I wonder if one could solve the problems of corrosion and pressure with a steam to steam hx and keeping the house system a mostly closed system and using the higher pressure district steam to make steam in the house system through a hx.

Works better than pressure reducing station. Control is similar but condensate from high pressure supply is handled easier. Plus one never knows what is in steam supply.

SgtMaj

Sorting through a Warren Webster system in KC. Waiting on additional parts to get it dialed back in. So far so good. Good luck on your project.

JohnNY

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1743325#Comment_1743325

We use high pressure steam through large heat exchangers to energize circulating hot water systems and DHW frequently. The high pressure stuff is dangerous and I'm happy to convert it to something easier to deal with as quickly as possible.

jumper

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1744042#Comment_1744042

Heat exchangers also can generate lower pressure steam. Some industrial facilities use pressure reducing stations instead. How condensate is handled gets complicated when they're staged to successively reduce pressure. When steam was big business people experimented with different designs for those steam to steam heat exchangers.

European district heating distributes high temperature water so I imagine somebody has hot water to steam generators?

mattmia2

A HX would let you keep the same water in the system so you're adding a lot less oxygen to the iron in the system.

The Wire Nut

@Mad Dog_2 Love to catch up with you and give you tour of the basement with John. Lots of things going on at the GSMT and it gets better and more beautiful as time goes on.

They are currently rebuilding the library skylight but they are still running lectures. Let us know when you think you'll be there!

Alex, the Wire Nut!

Mad Dog_2

I thought you'd neva ask Dahling!! Ha ha. Sounds good. Ill bring the popcorn & Bon Bons....I hope to be at Next Lecture.Mad Dog

JohnNY

2-Pipe Steam Bonus Feature: Heating from both ends of the radiators.

Steamhead

Looks like steam getting into the returns somewhere, along with bad traps.

mattmia2

and only the ends. increase the pressure, then a little more of the ends will heat...

(others reading this, don't actually do that)

Mad Dog_2

Infrared...don't lie!  Mad Dog 

JUGHNE

And no one has suggested taping an air vent in the top center of the rad??