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Interesting (Webster) System Problems Today.

JohnNY
JohnNY Member Posts: 3,230
This system is unique in that it was converted many years ago from being energized by an oil fired boiler now to NYC's Con Edison district steam. According to the owners, aside from the unexpected high cost of the steam, the system has "worked well for years". Everyone has their own definition of working well. Some don't have anything to compare it to.
Lately, the system has been spewing lots of steam and condensate out of the air vents accompanied by a great deal of noises that are new to the residents.
This one's going to be interesting and I'm looking forward to getting it straightened out as best I can considering I may be limited to how low I can get the pressure and the fact that all the condensate is dumped into the sewer at every cycle.





Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
Consulting & Troubleshooting
Heating in NYC or NJ.
Classes
Mad Dog_2mattmia2ttekushan_3Solid_Fuel_Man

Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,276
    You do get the winners, don't you?
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Mad Dog_2Solid_Fuel_Man
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,832
    @Gordo has a lot of experience with these- Baltimore has district steam too.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    Mad Dog_2mattmia2
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,919
    I love 💘 it...you'll figure it out, John. Looks like asbestos...that always complicates things  ..Keep us apprised .  Mad Dog

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,632
    Wonder how many people thinkin about keeping the water line in the returns up high enough to keep the water seals when dumping the condensate in the sewer.
    Mad Dog_2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,632
    I wonder if one could solve the problems of corrosion and pressure with a steam to steam hx and keeping the house system a mostly closed system and using the higher pressure district steam to make steam in the house system through a hx.
    Mad Dog_2ttekushan_3
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,919
    edited March 2023
    Cutting my teeth in thr World Famous Rockefeller Center in the mid 80s,  it always bothered me, as a Water Conservationist , the copius amount of waste steam and condensate that occurred.  Can't we do SOMETHING with all the condensate besides waste it in to the NYC sanitary system AND overload the Sewage treatment plants??  The newer codes have addressed this and some buildings are up to speed and re-purposing the waste water.  Eager to see what you find Johnny NY.  Mad Dog
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,919
    I LOVE that original mixing valve thingee on that tank.  If you cut it out, I will personally take it out to the Heating museum at Suffolk CC.  Mad 🐕 Dog
    Long Beach Ed
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,919
    That's what I like to hear, Johnny. I still haven't gotten to see that basement steam handiwork you, Alex the Wire Nut and Dan did at The General Society....I hope we have time to finally see it the next we're both at a Lecture. It would be cool. Mad Dog
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,245
    mattmia2 said:

    I wonder if one could solve the problems of corrosion and pressure with a steam to steam hx and keeping the house system a mostly closed system and using the higher pressure district steam to make steam in the house system through a hx.

    Works better than pressure reducing station. Control is similar but condensate from high pressure supply is handled easier. Plus one never knows what is in steam supply.

  • SgtMaj
    SgtMaj Member Posts: 75

    Sorting through a Warren Webster system in KC. Waiting on additional parts to get it dialed back in. So far so good. Good luck on your project.

    JohnNYttekushan_3
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,230

    We use high pressure steam through large heat exchangers to energize circulating hot water systems and DHW frequently. The high pressure stuff is dangerous and I'm happy to convert it to something easier to deal with as quickly as possible.

    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
    Heating in NYC or NJ.
    Classes
    ethicalpaulMad Dog_2Solid_Fuel_Man
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,245

    Heat exchangers also can generate lower pressure steam. Some industrial facilities use pressure reducing stations instead. How condensate is handled gets complicated when they're staged to successively reduce pressure. When steam was big business people experimented with different designs for those steam to steam heat exchangers.

    European district heating distributes high temperature water so I imagine somebody has hot water to steam generators?

    Mad Dog_2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,632

    A HX would let you keep the same water in the system so you're adding a lot less oxygen to the iron in the system.

  • The Wire Nut
    The Wire Nut Member Posts: 420

    @Mad Dog_2 Love to catch up with you and give you tour of the basement with John. Lots of things going on at the GSMT and it gets better and more beautiful as time goes on.

    They are currently rebuilding the library skylight but they are still running lectures. Let us know when you think you'll be there!

    Alex, the Wire Nut!

    "Let me control you"

    Lost in SOHO NYC and Balmy Whites Valley PA
    Mad Dog_2Erin Holohan Haskell
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,919

    I thought you'd neva ask Dahling!! Ha ha. Sounds good. Ill bring the popcorn & Bon Bons....I hope to be at Next Lecture.Mad Dog

  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,230
    2-Pipe Steam Bonus Feature: Heating from both ends of the radiators.



    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
    Heating in NYC or NJ.
    Classes
    mattmia2Mad Dog_2Long Beach Ed
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,832
    Looks like steam getting into the returns somewhere, along with bad traps.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    JohnNYmattmia2Mad Dog_2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,632
    and only the ends. increase the pressure, then a little more of the ends will heat...

    (others reading this, don't actually do that)
    Mad Dog_2JohnNY
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,919
    Infrared...don't lie!  Mad Dog 
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,060
    And no one has suggested taping an air vent in the top center of the rad?? >:)
    Mad Dog_2JohnNYLong Beach Edttekushan_3