Anybody Know a Steam Contractor in Baltimore Other Than Steamhead?

SlowYourRoll

So I passed along the message about the Hartford Loop close nipple. I even sent them this diagram I made showing them the pipe that's too long, as well as a link to (https://www.pmmag.com/articles/96529-top-10-facts-about-the-harford-loop) explaining the necessity of a short length of pipe there (item #6 in the article).



Anybody wanna see what they sent me back?




I called to have them fix it but they'd already left the site, which means they spent almost no time skimming. Can anyone give me an estimate of how long you think properly skimming a ~100k BTU boiler would take? It's a Weil McLain Series 5 if that helps. That would help me describe to them what I expect (in case they don't understand what "continue skimming until discharge is clear" means). What a shame all around.

KC_Jones

I spent about 4 hours skimming mine, but I also washed it out with a wand for a few hours before skimming. About halfway through the season after more oil worked back to the boiler I skimmed again for about 2 hours.

If they do that reduction in the vertical they can put the elbow at the tee, but I don’t see it happening. I can see that working with 4 fittings and being right, they have what looks like 6 to make it wrong. Good luck.

SlowYourRoll

thanks KC. i asked if they can maybe send a different installer out next time.

 has anybody worked with ProPress copper before? I'm not a plumber, just a homeowner. it seems to me like the rubber gasket groove is seated at least an inch from the end of the pipe, and I'm guessing that inner pipe would have to extend another quarter inch or half inch to be a proper seal. this is a completely amateur guess, but it seems like they're creating difficulty by trying to use ProPress here. seems like it could be much more compact if they just use threaded steel. I feel like ProPress would be better used when you didn't need to do so much in a compact space.

SlowYourRoll

I will give this company credit in that they seem to want to get it right. I'll keep everybody posted, but I do get the sense that they will keep at this until they get it right. so that's good news I guess. and we've got it in the contract that they are to install this according to the manufacturer's installation instructions. 

SlowYourRoll

i think i see 10 different fittings in there. looks like one above the tee, one below the tee, the tee itself, two on that horizontal run including what looks like a reducer on the horizontal run, the ell, looks like two 45s and possibly another fitting in between to get back over to the pipe riser, then the final fitting for the pipe riser.

like i said, I'm not a plumber/contractor, but that seems like A LOT of fittings. and they're ProPress fittings so I'm guessing they cost 2-3x more than normal copper fittings.

i understand an advantage to copper is cost, but I'm not even sure that this conga line of specialized fittings would cost less than threaded steel.

Ironman

Threading black iron pipe requires the use off cutting oil on every joint. A lot of it can get inside the pipe and fittings and work it’s way back to the boiler. That’s the main reason that skimming is needed, as well as what’s inside the boiler from manufacturing. 

The only plus side of them using copper is that there’s no oil used in making the joints, so the amount of skimming that’s required should be less.
 

We spray Brake Clean on the pipe to remove the oil when threading and then wash it hot water with Dawn to remove the residue of the Brake Clean.

You’ll need it to be skimmed after installation and the again after a few days of running.

KC_Jones

All my wet returns are soldered copper.  Frank and Gordo do it on some of their installs as far as I know.

The wet returns stay much cleaner with copper, mine basically looks like drinking water all the time.  The old boiler with steel had tons of sludge all the time.

As far as the propress it’s a great system, I wouldn’t use it on steam line, but wet returns don’t seem like a big deal to me.  That said, I think they need to do more training with their pipe fitters when using it.  Those fittings are quite spendy.  

ScottSecor

See page 17, figure 18 for near boiler piping.  Show it to them (especially the "short nipple" part).
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/ay7mZrv6uqAz

EBEBRATT-Ed

The tee in the equalizer is the issue. They could have turned it 180 put a close pc of copper in drooped down and gone under the boiler connection.

They crimped that tee in first then realized they didn't have enough room without doing all the zig zagging.

Fixing it now is 2 slip couplings and a tee in the equalizer plus some other fittings.

That's one reason I don't like PP. In this instance it all could have been avoided by better planning.


But sometimes with PP you need to make changes.


We ran a new 3" PP city water line on a job and when we turned it on it leaked at 1 joint. I had 2 plumbers working for me and he admitted "I probably cut the O rig it was real hard getting the fitting on". I couldn't blame him it was in a tight spot jammed between some other pipes and he admitted it.

trouble is it cost 13" pp 90 and 2 45s to fix it. This was probably 10 years ago. At that time the PP 90 was like $120 don't remember what the 45s cost plus some copper pipe

SlowYourRoll

ScottSecor said:

See page 17, figure 18 for near boiler piping.  Show it to them (especially the "short nipple" part).
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/ay7mZrv6uqAz

i already did. this is what they delivered AFTER i pointed them to figure 18...

SlowYourRoll

okay, I'm totally new to PP. never heard of it until 3 days ago. here's what I don't get. can't you basically mock up with everything in place before you even crimp one joint? I mean you'd have to cut some sections of plain pipe that end up not being used, but it seems to me like you should basically be able to fit the whole thing together in place prior to crimping, just to see if it works. but again, I don't know if this is how PP actually works, it's just what I'm imagining

ScottSecor

In their defense,  they got the heat on just before a serious cold snap and right before Christmas.   

After Christmas, ideally on a mild day, ask them to do the following:
Drain the boiler. 
Cut the vertical copper pipe (equalizer) a few inches above the offending tee.
Cut the vertical copper pipe (equalizer)  a few inches below the tee.
Cut the series if reducing couplings in half.
Remove all of this piping and hang it on the wall as a reminder not to do this again. 
Install new pp tee at correct height,  with new small pieces of vertical pipe and two slip couplings.
Then on the bull (side in your case) of the new tee,  install a pp street elbow with the fitting end facing the floor.
Install pipe, pp coupling and pp fittings as needed to tie in return.
Refill boiler,  clean,  skim and add rust inhibitor.
Set pressuretrol to lowest reliable settings.

I doubt they will be willing to do all of this for free.

randers2015

Gosh, so much excitement going on in Baltimore; glad to hear about this resolution but i do have a question: how do you drain the plumbing and what pipe do you insulate? my whole system is shut off but I did not drain the plumbing. where and what do i do? basement is very insulated right now and is comfy with just a coat on. i just left the two sinks running low right now. I would appreciate some help about draining the plumbing. thanks

SlowYourRoll

ScottSecor said:

In their defense,  they got the heat on just before a serious cold snap and right before Christmas.

After Christmas, ideally on a mild day, ask them to do the following...........

I doubt they will be willing to do all of this for free.

I am grateful for that. And I really have had a very positive experience with the two reps who came and did the boiler sizing, which they did properly, at least to and amateur homeowner steam guy. I felt like we were on the same page and they understood what I was talking about and vice versa. I may not be the best judge of character (see backstory about ex-wife) but I do actually think they really want to get this right. I have a good feeling about this, oddly enough. I think this will be an eye opener for them on their end, but probably a welcome one.

of course I have it in the contract that the boiler will be installed according to the manufacturer's instruction manual and they assured me that the installers will go through the checklist for cleaning after the install. I could be wrong, but as long as what I'm asking for is in the installation manuals, I've got a feeling they won't be charging. 

SlowYourRoll

randers2015 said:

Gosh, so much excitement going on in Baltimore; glad to hear about this resolution but i do have a question: how do you drain the plumbing and what pipe do you insulate? my whole system is shut off but I did not drain the plumbing. where and what do i do? basement is very insulated right now and is comfy with just a coat on. i just left the two sinks running low right now. I would appreciate some help about draining the plumbing. thanks

hey Randers, I'm not really qualified to answer your question, but I think you should start a new thread with this question so that people will see it better and get you an answer. maybe with a title like "Keeping boiler pipes from bursting with power out"... best of luck to you! you came to the right place.

SlowYourRoll

randers2015 said:

Gosh, so much excitement going on in Baltimore; glad to hear about this resolution but i do have a question: how do you drain the plumbing and what pipe do you insulate? my whole system is shut off but I did not drain the plumbing. where and what do i do? basement is very insulated right now and is comfy with just a coat on. i just left the two sinks running low right now. I would appreciate some help about draining the plumbing. thanks

and while you wait for an answer you might want to start googling "buried wet return lines" or searching this site. I'm not a pro, but I'm guessing that the biggest question people will have for you is whether or not your wet return line is buried or exposed. that's jusy a guess, you might be fine either way, like i said im not a pro

SlowYourRoll

ScottSecor said:

Remove all of this piping and hang it on the wall as a reminder not to do this again. 

🤣🤣🤣

SlowYourRoll

KC_Jones said:

All my wet returns are soldered copper.  Frank and Gordo do it on some of their installs as far as I know.

The wet returns stay much cleaner with copper, mine basically looks like drinking water all the time.  The old boiler with steel had tons of sludge all the time.

that's an interesting observation. I'll have to ponder that more. any idea why that is?

Mad Dog_2

I understand now.  Well. You can have the. Cone un later for corrections if needed. Mad Dog

Mad Dog_2

Send that judge on a little "discovery" foray to The Wall. We'll school him and "edumacate" and learn him on The Steam.  Mad Dog

Mad Dog_2

Steamhead and Gordo are gentlemen and when they DO come, you will get 110% from them. Mad Dog

CLamb

Is it even possible to do the equivalent of a close nipple with Pro-Press?

Danny Scully

CLamb said:

Is it even possible to do the equivalent of a close nipple with Pro-Press?

Street el. 

mattmia2

Danny Scully said:

CLamb said:

Is it even possible to do the equivalent of a close nipple with Pro-Press?

Street el. 

It also sort of isn't required, a close nipple in copper is just a short piece of pipe.

mattmia2

Also note, the instructions will show where the skim port is. sometimes you have to cut a new hole in the jacket for it.

SlowYourRoll

mattmia2 said:

Also note, the instructions will show where the skim port is. sometimes you have to cut a new hole in the jacket for it.

If the installer has never installed a skim port before i'm not sure how i feel about letting them use my boiler for training purposes.

SlowYourRoll

Things are getting worse and worse over here. They're now talking about sending pictures to Weil-McLain to sign off on rather than fixing the NBP and skimming the boiler. I wonder who WM has a financial incentive to side with??? Does anyone know if there's a way for me to contact WM and specifically point out the issues with the NBP and send a picture of the sight glass, which is already dirty after a week of operation?

JUGHNE

IIWM, I would try to get the cell number of the foreman or owner and give it to the EX. "This is who you would call if there are boiler problems".

The less you are aware of the causes the less you have to answer.

Maybe worth a shot?

SlowYourRoll

JUGHNE said:

IIWM, I would try to get the cell number of the foreman or owner and give it to the EX. "This is who you would call if there are boiler problems". The less you are aware of the causes the less you have to answer. Maybe worth a shot?

it's actually my house and I'll be moving back mid-2025, so I'm trying to get it done right. i thought our contract was clear enough in specifying that they follow the installation manual. but I won't be giving them another cent over the contract and i might be headed to court to recoup what i paid for but didn't receive, so giving their number to the ex is a no-go.

basically I'm going to try to get them to honor what I've paid for as far as NBP and skimming/cleaning, and beyond that the only two people who are allowed anywhere near my boiler are @Steamhead and @Gordo.

and the moral of this thread is to only use All Steamed Up if you live in Baltimore, unless circumstances force you into a situation where you have to go in another direction, and if that's the case may the Heating Gods have mercy on your soul, and PM me if you want to know who not to use.

gfrbrookline

If she got the house and you were forced out of it how is maintaining the home not your ex wife's problem. I totally get the need to take care of your children but if your ex took the house she also took on responsibility for maintaining the assets, even if you have shared responsibility she is equally responsible no?

Sorry just saw previous post.

SlowYourRoll

gfrbrookline said:

If she got the house and you were forced out of it how is maintaining the home not your ex wife's problem. I totally get the need to take care of your children but if your ex took the house she also took on responsibility for maintaining the assets, even if you have shared responsibility she is equally responsible no?

Sorry just saw previous post.

I own 100% of the house (and consequently 100% of the boiler). She wanted to stay in the house so bad that I just pay my mortgage and a few other expenses instead of paying her any alimony.

gfrbrookline

I wish you all the best just take care of your kids and make the best of it you can.

EBEBRATT-Ed

As far as propress goes you're not supposed to butt two fittings together with the shortest piece of copper possible.....there is a minimum crimp distance, I forgot what it is and am too lazy to look.

But I have seen plenty of joints butted together with apparently no issue

SlowYourRoll

yeah it turns out i signed an "estimate" not a "contract" and my lawyer tells me it's basically unenforceable, so the hour i spent walking through the house getting them to agree to this and that (basically all the stuff in WGSH) i could've been speaking Mandarin or Klingon and it wouldn't have made any difference. so that's the end of that i guess.

I'll get Frank and Gordo out in a couple years when I move back in to fix the piping and skim it and do combustion analysis and all that good stuff. for now the house has heat. and I learned a valuable lesson. Time for me to move on from this boiler project.

SlowYourRoll

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

As far as propress goes you're not supposed to butt two fittings together with the shortest piece of copper possible.....there is a minimum crimp distance, I forgot what it is and am too lazy to look. But I have seen plenty of joints butted together with apparently no issue

yeah I was trying to get them to go the street ell route. I actually thought "nipple" only applied to threaded pipe because that's the only nipples we had when I worked in a plumbing supply house. but I guess it makes sense that we didn't sell 2 inch long sections of copper pipe.

SlowYourRoll

gfrbrookline said:

I wish you all the best just take care of your kids and make the best of it you can.

thanks buddy, things are looking up. 

mattmia2

it is still a nipple, it just doesn't have to be threaded

SlowYourRoll

mattmia2 said:

it is still a nipple, it just doesn't have to be threaded

it makes sense now!

but I wasn't really learning plumbing by working at the plumbing supply house, I was just sort of learning the names of things, and after stocking thousands of nipples and pulling hundreds for orders, in my mind a nipple was a threaded pipe. the closest thing we sold to unthreaded nipples were slip couplings. I guess if people needed copper close nipples they just cut them on site. We might have sold shorter lengths of copper, but I don't recall that. that was almost 20 years ago.

MaxMercy

SlowYourRoll said:

i could've been speaking Mandarin or Klingon and it wouldn't have made any difference.

If it was Klingon, you'd be all set. Klingons are ill-tempered, but they value honor..

Hope everything turns out well for you. You come across as a decent guy.

neilc

maybe I missed it, but,
is there anywhere in this thread, or your other, where there is hammering or noise from that incorrect hartford loop "nipple" ?
I'm not saying that the copper or length is correct,
but, if it isn't broken , , ,