Question about using Traps as a "crossover" in a Two Pipe System

TheClevelandSteamer

Background & Equipment

Home:

• built in 1770 (252 years ago)
  
• We are heading into our 2nd winter here
  
• Balloon framed, 3 stories, well insulated
  
• 3rd floor is insulated but not conditioned
  

Heating System:

• Weil-McLain EG55PIDN Series 4 Boiler
  
• Natural Gas powered
  
• installed in 2000 and working well
  
• Twin pipe system
  
• 15 Cast Iron radiators
  
• Brand new valves on all rads
  
• Brand new traps on all rads (New Old Stock Hoffman 17C)
  
• All radiators heating very nicely
  
• 
  

--------------------------------------

Question:

During an inspection following replacement of all valves and traps, I found 3 Hoffman 17C traps that are connected to both the condensate pipe and steam pipe. Almost like they are a crossover or a loop of some sort. I'm not quite sure what the purpose of these would be.

I'm going to replace them due to their age. But before doing so, I wanted to see if someone could kindly advise me of what their purpose might be.

Thanks Guys.

mattmia2

Are there other vents on your mains? They are how your mains are vented, the air passes through the crossover trap in to the return where it vents out the vent on the return. They have to be working for your mains to vent properly.

What kind of valves were on the radiators? This may be a vapor system.

Jamie Hall

Those are crossover traps. As @mattmia2 said, they are the main vents for your steam mains - much more capacity than anything other than a BigMouth. However... they do require that the dry returns be adequately vented. Usually on these systems all the dry returns are connected together near the boiler, high up, and a big vent or vent antler is mounted there.

Do NOT put any other vents on the system!!!

There also has to be provision for condensate return. Most commonly this will be a wet return at or very near floor level and it will be connected to the dry return by a drip -- and I think I see the top of one in the pictures. Probably the steam main also has a drip to that wet return. Note that the wet return MUST be below the boiler water line!

TheClevelandSteamer

Hello, thanks for the timely reply.

My apologies if I left out a few details.

It is a steam system.

Here are some of the 15 valves, or at least, what's left of them. Not a single one of the 15 functioned properly, as I verified with my Flir camera. They were all either stuck open or closed, and not a single one came off without the torch and/or the saw.



There is an ancient Lytton device attached to the pipes Series 70JR. I'm unsure of what it's supposed to do, and whether or not it works.

mattmia2

That is a vapor system and those are special metering valves that only open enough to let in the amount of steam the radiator can condense when they are adjusted properly.

JUGHNE

So steam main air vents thru the cross over trap into the dry return.

Rad traps vent air into the dry return.

Where does the air vent out of the dry return, especially if it drops down into a wet return?

So there must be a way to vent the dry return.

Unless there is a vented cond or feeder pump and no wet return to that.

Jamie Hall

I'm weeping. Those wrecked Hoffman Specialty valves are easily maintained or repaired, and had you taken the time to figure out how to do it you could have. There were worth a small fortune. You managed to destroy probably well into the high four figures worth of hardware there.

Further, they were matched to the radiators to which they were attached, including the spuds in the radiators. Those will all have to be removed and replaced, with ones matching new valves -- but you can't replace the old valves in kind, they don't exist. You have an interesting and major job on your hands.

That Lytton device is an essential part of the proper functioning of your system, and should not require maintenance.

Put away the saw and the torch before you wreck anything else, and either learn how your system was supposed to work before you do any more damage, or find someone who does understand it.

What a tragedy.

Jamie Hall

And, for @JUGHNE , that Lytton device has something to do with properly venting the system and controlling system differential pressure.

EBEBRATT-Ed

The litton is probably a boiler return trap. need more pictures of the piping around it

Gordo

I could use some of those Hoffman #7s radiator valves if you don't want them.

TheClevelandSteamer

@Jamie Hall

Thanks for the advice.

Taking the time to research how to maintain broken hardware isn't much of an option when your house and family are cold, winter is approaching, and there aren't any contractors in a 25 mile radius that will service your system. Not to mention difficulty finding service parts for those old valves.

So in a perfect world, maybe they could have or would have been saved. But unfortunately, each of the previous homeowner(s) neglected them to the point where they were all completely unusable.

I did the best I could, and every radiator that previously didn't work, now does, and my kids aren't cold anymore.

I'd be real interested to see a place online where those items sell for the kind of money you're stating. Or maybe some examples of previously sold ones.

Otherwise, if you send me your address, I'll mail the broken Hoffman valves up to you, so you can give them a proper funeral or cannibalize them. Otherwise, off they go to the scrapyard this weekend, and I can promise you I won't shed a tear for them then.

Gordo

@TheClevelandSteamer:
Please PM me re: the #7 valves

KC_Jones

Judging by your name I'll assume you are in Cleveland. One of the number one steam guys in the country works in the Cleveland area and hangs out on this forum. @gerry gill If you ever need a professional, I strongly suggest calling him, one of the very best, has written some of the reference material many of us use.

https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/g-w-gill-plumbing-and-heating
https://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/

So, not only is there someone, it's one of the best.

As far as the valves. The point of the metering valves you had is that they control how much steam enters the radiators on a 2 pipe. You are now running wide open and can not control that, so balance may become an issue as you get into the winter, that will remain to be seen on your end. If a room ends up at 80° you will either have to deal with that, or turn it completely off and be back to cold. The only other option is to do more research, learn how orifice systems work, the re engineer what you have to be an orifice system. Again, you might be ok, you might be way out of balance.

@Gordo can speak way more intelligently than I on the specific function of those particular valves and how big that issue may or may not be.

Jamie Hall

Son, all I can say is that had you asked here first before hacking away, I'd venture that we could have helped you get all those valves working properly in about two days. Yeah.. about that. They take about half an hour to disassemble, clean and lubricate, and reassemble.

But, what's done is done.

I would add, however, that there are other parts and aspects to your system which you need to figure out how they work and why they are there. Properly cared for, you can have a very efficient, quiet, system which heats your house exactly as you want it. Otherwise, it will be just another d___ned steam system to rip out and replace with hot air. Your choice.

Steamhead

@TheClevelandSteamer , the Lytton system is mentioned in @DanHolohan 's book "The Lost Art of Steam Heating Revisited". You can get a copy on the site's store. It mentions the return trap, which I'm sure is what's in your picture, as well as how they vented the dry (overhead) returns. You're looking for a main vent, somewhere on the dry return close to the boiler.

Steamhead

More on Lytton. Turns out they were in Virginia, just like Wiley-Simplex:

https://mycompanies.fandom.com/wiki/Lytton_Manufacturing_Corporation

TheClevelandSteamer

@Jamie Hall

I have nearly 12,000 lbs of radiators in this house that have been here for over 125 years. They’re not going anywhere. My house is older than this nation and it’s not going anywhere either.

Don’t go calling me “Son” either. 

You might have nearly 20,000 posts here, and while I guess that’s kind of impressive(?) it sure as heck doesn’t empower you to be condescending. And if that’s how this place works, well then, screw that.

And if you’re sad about a pile of broken valves getting cut up, that’s a bit dramatic. Maybe I’ll melt them down and piss on the molten metal to help cool it off. 

Frankly I don’t particularly care about them, and I don’t need the money from them. They would have been mildly interesting if they’d worked, but not a single one of them did.

 

JUGHNE

Too bad, I won't beat you up....what is done is done.

However, please ship those remains to Gordo. He makes excellent Utubes on steam components, we all learn from the Gordo videos.

FWIW, I came across a system that had been really butchered.

It was a Kalmac/Kellog/Macnay system, some of the radiator valves resembled your old ones.

Not nearly the quality of your Hoffman valves.

Broken parts inside and non movable stems.
Stripped out union nuts and valve male threads producing leaks.
Most of the traps had no guts inside, just an open passage.

The basement air venting device was long gone due to a boiler change.

I put working standard radiator valves on the rads.
Then put cup orifices in each valve union.
There are no elements in the traps.

The orifice size based on heating only 80% of each radiator and maximum system pressure.
I drill on the small size, thinking it can be increased if needed.

I had never seen this system run and had to take a WAG for pressure, used 18 ounces as a guide.
It turned out quite well. System runs in the lower ounces......a vapor stat pressure control is necessary (HG in my case, BTW).

Boiler is over size and the near piping is terrible.
But worked like a dream. I was surprised.

End of steam mains were vented each with 2 Gorton #2.
Dry return had venting also, though in theory an open pipe would have sufficed in a perfect world.

So you can throttle the steam with your new valves, however these are usually to loose internally to stay where you put them. And you may be chasing them all winter.
With a fixed orifice, once you get the right size in place, the tstat will cycle the system as needed.

I have done this with other projects also.

Jamie Hall

My apologies for being overwrought. My business (if you could call it that -- it's all charity work) is taking care of and restoring old buildings -- mostly much older than yours -- and when I see a completely avoidable -- and unrestorable catastrophe -- I get upset. I should, however, be used to it, since it is very common.

@JUGHNE has -- as usual -- good advice as to how to get the best out of what you have now.

JUGHNE

Thank you Jamie, I consider that high praise from someone with your experience and talents.
(I feel like a young nubee here sometimes)


So Cleveland, as you may have surmised, this is pretty well a steam heating preservation site.
I too am on a museum board and do a fair amount of charity work.
Tomorrow I make a 300 mile round trip drive to a small private school to continue troubleshooting their steam system over the weekend....I am "semi-retired" at 73.

It hasn't been mentioned, but we are glad you did not tear everything out and go to forced air.

Back to your basement there has to be some method to vent the air out of the dry return, some vent of sorts near the Lytton device or there may be difficulty in heating.

ChrisJ

I don't think his name has to do with his location

TheClevelandSteamer

ChrisJ said:

I don't think his name has to do with his location

You are correct sir.

Erin Holohan Haskell

TheClevelandSteamer said:

@Jamie Hall

I have nearly 12,000 lbs of radiators in this house that have been here for over 125 years. They’re not going anywhere. My house is older than this nation and it’s not going anywhere either.

Don’t go calling me “Son” either. 

You might have nearly 20,000 posts here, and while I guess that’s kind of impressive(?) it sure as heck doesn’t empower you to be condescending. And if that’s how this place works, well then, screw that.

And if you’re sad about a pile of broken valves getting cut up, that’s a bit dramatic. Maybe I’ll melt them down and piss on the molten metal to help cool it off. 

Frankly I don’t particularly care about them, and I don’t need the money from them. They would have been mildly interesting if they’d worked, but not a single one of them did.

 

@TheClevelandSteamer, knowing @Jamie Hall for as long as we have, he did not intend to be condescending and he has apologized. Jamie has a big heart and a whole lot of knowledge that he has generously shared in those 20,000 posts. I understand that you are frustrated with your heating system, but let's all give one another the benefit of the doubt instead of going on the attack. We may not always agree with each other's opinions here, but we do maintain a culture of mutual respect. Thank you.

Gordo

@Clevelandsteamer

Would you be able to put those Hoffman #7 valves & spud nuts on eBay?

reggi

It must be a fine house...it predates what I believed was Balloon Framing start in Chicago in the early 1830's by 50 years .. but the odds are someone thought of earlier.. Must be quite spectacular.. feel free to share more heating photos..

Steamhead

TheClevelandSteamer said:

ChrisJ said:

I don't think his name has to do with his location

You are correct sir.

So where are you located?

ChrisJ

reggi said:

It must be a fine house...it predates what I believed was Balloon Framing start in Chicago in the early 1830's by 50 years .. but the odds are someone thought of earlier.. Must be quite spectacular.. feel free to share more heating photos..

Ballooned framed with dimensional lumber in the 1700s...


I don't think so Tim

reggi

ChrisJ said:

reggi said:

It must be a fine house...it predates what I believed was Balloon Framing start in Chicago in the early 1830's by 50 years .. but the odds are someone thought of earlier.. Must be quite spectacular.. feel free to share more heating photos..

Ballooned framed with dimensional lumber in the 1700s...


I don't think so Tim

Me ? Who am I to say that It's NOT 252 years old, Balloon Frame AND the 3 Rd floor, unconditioned .,.. isn't what is usually called a Attic ?
I do wonder what was the heat source before the Hoffman was installed 100 or so years ago 

ChrisJ

reggi said:

ChrisJ said:

reggi said:

It must be a fine house...it predates what I believed was Balloon Framing start in Chicago in the early 1830's by 50 years .. but the odds are someone thought of earlier.. Must be quite spectacular.. feel free to share more heating photos..

Ballooned framed with dimensional lumber in the 1700s...


I don't think so Tim

Me ? Who am I to say that It's NOT 252 years old, Balloon Frame AND the 3 Rd floor, unconditioned .,.. isn't what is usually called a Attic ?
I do wonder what was the heat source before the Hoffman was installed 100 or so years ago 

Considering why Balloon framing got it's name it I feel it's safe to say there were no balloon framed structures in the 1700s. I have a feeling there were very few in the 1830s as well overall. As far as I'm aware it became popular in the 1850s and up.

In my case, a balloon framed house from the 1860s, it was originally heated by several wood/coal stoves. Two on the 2nd floor, one in the kitchen and one in the basement best I can tell. The house next door built around the same time by the guy's brother used fire places.

TheClevelandSteamer

I know this is a heating forum, but in case some of you are interested in construction, you might appreciate this:

We have photos dating back to the late 1800s. It is indeed a balloon framed house, built entirely from Old Growth White Oak. When I say "entirely", I mean as in, every single piece of structural lumber. The grain patterns are unlike anything I've ever seen. Joinery is mortise & tenon, Roman numerals on everything, hand-forged nails throughout, some as long as 6". Molding/casing profile is also White Oak throughout and doesn't match any of the 2000+ profiles I've researched.

A few other noteworthy items:

• Main beams are 12"x12"x40' long. Think about that for a moment.
  
• Floor joists are 3"x12". Many are rift & quartersawn
  
• Outer walls are 3"x6"x20+' high
  
• Interior walls vary but are typically 3"x4"
  
• Firestops were nonexistent on any walls. We added them throughout.
  
• Exterior insulation was non nonexistent. We added a fire-retardant type throughout.
  
• Electrical was knob & tube throughout and was required to be replaced.
  
• Flooring is 6/4 Longleaf Yellow Pine, Old Growth, between 8-20" wide throughout.
  
• There are *9* fireplaces between basement and all 3 floors, all inspected and in working order.
  
• Previous boiler was oil-fired, and prior to that, possibly coal-fired
  
• The 15 radiators are all American Radiator floral pattern and they all work.
  
• The house was struck by lightning *TWICE* and has scorch marks to prove it.
  

We're doing our part here to preserve a rather unique home, but I can't say I'm particularly disturbed or bothered by having to replace some dead Hoffman radiator valves.

ChrisJ

TheClevelandSteamer said:

I know this is a heating forum, but in case some of you are interested in construction, you might appreciate this:

We have photos dating back to the late 1800s. It is indeed a balloon framed house, built entirely from Old Growth White Oak. When I say "entirely", I mean as in, every single piece of structural lumber. The grain patterns are unlike anything I've ever seen. Joinery is mortise & tenon, Roman numerals on everything, hand-forged nails throughout, some as long as 6". Molding/casing profile is also White Oak throughout and doesn't match any of the 2000+ profiles I've researched.

A few other noteworthy items:

• Main beams are 12"x12"x40' long. Think about that for a moment.
  
• Floor joists are 3"x12". Many are rift & quartersawn
  
• Outer walls are 3"x6"x20+' high
  
• Interior walls vary but are typically 3"x4"
  
• Firestops were nonexistent on any walls. We added them throughout.
  
• Exterior insulation was non nonexistent. We added a fire-retardant type throughout.
  
• Electrical was knob & tube throughout and was required to be replaced.
  
• Flooring is 6/4 Longleaf Yellow Pine, Old Growth, between 8-20" wide throughout.
  
• There are *9* fireplaces between basement and all 3 floors, all inspected and in working order.
  
• Previous boiler was oil-fired, and prior to that, possibly coal-fired
  
• The 15 radiators are all American Radiator floral pattern and they all work.
  
• The house was struck by lightning *TWICE* and has scorch marks to prove it.
  

We're doing our part here to preserve a rather unique home, but I can't say I'm particularly disturbed or bothered by having to replace some dead Hoffman radiator valves.

Just out of curiosity, and many of us here appreciate old buildings as much as heating systems, can you share some pictures of the framing?

What you've described does not sound like balloon framing, which got it's name from being "So light it'll float away".

KC_Jones

Sounds like timber frame to me. The mortise and tenon would be the dead giveaway, none of that going on in balloon framing.

mattmia2

That sounds like post and beam which is what I would expect for late 18th century.

Jamie Hall

If I am back in acceptable, if not good, graces... yes, post and beam. A few things to help date, but they are local in nature -- the timing changes from region to region. The biggest one is how the various timbers were cut and shaped. Adze work is very early, and may be on the bigger beams but not on the smaller timbers. Next came up and down saw work. Circular saw work was usually quite a bit later.

Is there a subfloor under the traffic floors? That would indicate a bit later -- but also would suggest a higher end quality of construction.

Plaster finish? Accordion lathe (split lathe, often ash in New England) or sawn lathe (much later)?

Heavy main central chimney? Possibly with a side oven?

Lots of things to look at and ponder.

reggi

ChrisJ said:

ChrisJ said:

reggi said:

It must be a fine house...it predates what I believed was Balloon Framing start in Chicago in the early 1830's by 50 years .. but the odds are someone thought of earlier.. Must be quite spectacular.. feel free to share more heating photos..

Ballooned framed with dimensional lumber in the 1700s...


I don't think so Tim

Me ? Who am I to say that It's NOT 252 years old, Balloon Frame AND the 3 Rd floor, unconditioned .,.. isn't what is usually called a Attic ?
I do wonder what was the heat source before the Hoffman was installed 100 or so years ago 

Considering why Balloon framing got it's name it I feel it's safe to say there were no balloon framed structures in the 1700s. I have a feeling there were very few in the 1830s as well overall. As far as I'm aware it became popular in the 1850s and up. In my case, a balloon framed house from the 1860s, it was originally heated by several wood/coal stoves. Two on the 2nd floor, one in the kitchen and one in the basement best I can tell. The house next door built around the same time by the guy's brother used fire places.

I was at 1830's Chicago....why are you dragging me into the 1700's ? I know about balloon framing and brought the point up first about the discrepancy of 50 years..
10 + years ...read the thread before you jump in... it's easy..

mattmia2

TheClevelandSteamer said:

Molding/casing profile is also White Oak throughout and doesn't match any of the 2000+ profiles I've researched.

Before molding was made in mills it was made on site using a set of molding planes, each plane was a profile of a different section of the molding so the final profile was up to how the carpenter that made it used those planes.

ChrisJ

reggi said:

ChrisJ said:

ChrisJ said:

reggi said:

It must be a fine house...it predates what I believed was Balloon Framing start in Chicago in the early 1830's by 50 years .. but the odds are someone thought of earlier.. Must be quite spectacular.. feel free to share more heating photos..

Ballooned framed with dimensional lumber in the 1700s...


I don't think so Tim

Me ? Who am I to say that It's NOT 252 years old, Balloon Frame AND the 3 Rd floor, unconditioned .,.. isn't what is usually called a Attic ?
I do wonder what was the heat source before the Hoffman was installed 100 or so years ago 

Considering why Balloon framing got it's name it I feel it's safe to say there were no balloon framed structures in the 1700s. I have a feeling there were very few in the 1830s as well overall. As far as I'm aware it became popular in the 1850s and up. In my case, a balloon framed house from the 1860s, it was originally heated by several wood/coal stoves. Two on the 2nd floor, one in the kitchen and one in the basement best I can tell. The house next door built around the same time by the guy's brother used fire places.

I was at 1830's Chicago....why are you dragging me into the 1700's ? I know about balloon framing and brought the point up first about the discrepancy of 50 years..
10 + years ...read the thread before you jump in... it's easy..

I was agreeing with you..... And for some reason even that ended up painful

TheClevelandSteamer

Gordo said:

@Clevelandsteamer

Would you be able to put those Hoffman #7 valves & spud nuts on eBay?

No, because I'd prefer you not know my identity or location. A completed transaction with you would reveal both. I'm not interested in that.

They're getting melted down and sold for scrap. I don't care about them or their value.

ChrisJ

Trolling level : Expert.

Ignore him @Gordo

ethicalpaul

> They're getting melted down and sold for scrap. I don't care about them or their value.

I recommend selling them for scrap and let the scrapper them melt them down. With the cost of fuel today you'll come out behind if you try it.

KC_Jones

ethicalpaul said:

> They're getting melted down and sold for scrap. I don't care about them or their value.

I recommend selling them for scrap and let the scrapper them melt them down. With the cost of fuel today you'll come out behind if you try it.

I don't think he's worried about that because....

https://youtu.be/C6PNc9KN50M