Buzzing Boiler
Comments
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There look to be only 2 components in that compartment.
I suspect the gas valve, can you feel the vibration/buzz when it is on?
The transformer in the upper right might buzz, but it is energized all the time.
Just so that when the buzzing stops and the gas valve closes, does the flame go completely out, other than the pilot light?1 -
Hello AshlynDL,
This is coming from a novice, but it sounds like a stuck solenoid.
Is this steam boiler using a manual ignition system to light a pilot light for the steam boiler?
The transformer that is on the right side of the boiler should not make any noise.
If the noise is coming from the gas control valve which I think it is, it should be looked and possibly replaced.
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@leonz thank you so much for offering your expertise. How can I identify if it is a manual ignition system? Do you recommend keeping the heat off completely until the gas control valve is replaced (as mentioned, it doesn’t “buzz” all the time)? Supposedly a sensor and gas valve were replaced in 2020 (according to the previous owner whom we purchased the house from). Is this a safety issue?0
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Sounds like a bad solenoid, must be in gas valve (item in center).If you have a screwdriver you can use as makeshift but effective stethoscope. Pace the screw tip on the metal body of the relay (away from wires) and position you ear close to the handle. If the gas solenoid is making the noise, you will clearly hear it. If the valve is silent, repeat for the transformer on right.
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Hello AshlynDL,
I am not much of an expert but there should be no buzzing at all. Ashlyn, I would have it replaced if it were me.
If the steam boiler has a gas pilot light/flame it requires you to relight it manually ONLY if it goes out.
If its anything like my old 30 gallon water heater gas pilot lighting system the red button is depressed
for 30 seconds and you light the pilot gas jet with a match held in a match holder, long matchstick or a long handle butane lighter.
If you can find the owners manual for the boiler or if the builder's plate is visible you will have the information you need to identify it and to talk to someone about the boiler.
If you can see the builders Identification plate it will have the manufacturers name, the boilers serial number, firing rate which is the British Thermal Units (BTU's) burned per hour and the steam heating square footage the boiler is rated for.
Copy all the information on the builders plate so you have it in front of you when you call the plumber as ask them to come by for a service call because of the buzzing.
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You have the most basic of gas valves.
It is for a standing pilot light with thermocouple (sensor) safety system.
Old school, should have lasted more than 2 years though.
You can touch it with the back side of your fingers and maybe feel the buzz.
Those wire are only 24 volts.
I take a rubber handle screwdriver and "thump" the side of the valve with the rubber part of the handle.
That sometimes will stop or start the buzz.
Again make sure the flame goes off when the boiler is off.
Do you see the main gas stop valve?
If you shut it off the pilot will also go off and need relighting.
You can post a picture of the entire boiler.
Show all the components from a distance back.
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Facts
1. New gas valve in 2020.
2. Reason for replacing the valve in 2020 is unknown.
3. This is on a steam boiler according to the owner. (can't tell from the pictures and Homeowners sometimes make mistakes on what is and is not steam)
4. No other relays are involved on this boiler (which is a possibility on steam boilers)
5. 24 volt transformer
6. 24 volt thermostat.
If all this is true, then the gas valve is the source of the noise. I agree that this type of gas valve is basic and should last longer than 2 years. Assume that the previous gas valve was replaced because of the same noise, then perhaps the old valve was not the problem.
The transformer may be the source of the problem, or the wires from the transformer to the thermostat and back to the gas valve. One of those wires may have some corrosion buildup or some other reason for providing abnormal resistance and less power than necessary to fully open the valve. Once the valve uses up the restricted energy, the valve fails and closes, allowing for the restricted energy to try to open the valve again. The restricted energy condition still exists so, when the valve tries to open again the valve fails to fully open again and the condition repeats. This happens rapidly over and over again like an alarm bell or buzzer might be designed to operate.
This partially open and closing valve may allow enough gas to the burners to have a fire that might heat the home, BUT it is vary annoying. The safety part of the valve will is not associated with the electrical side of the valve, but there are other things that can go wrong.
Now if the problem is in the wires from the thermostat to the boiler, and you replace the transformer and the gas valve. the problem may not be resolved. A good technician may be able to rule out the wires one at a time by using a jumper to bypass them one at a time. This will be time consuming and they will need to be paid for their time. But this is the only way to find the problem.
Unrelated and off topic but to the point.
After 3 years of trying to solve a problem with an oil burner with plugged nozzle problems that included new filter, new fuel lines, even a new fuel tank, I finally found the nozzles were being plugged by the rust from the high pressure tube that connected the high pressure line to the nozzle adaptor. This is located after all the filters and parts that I changed over the previous 2 seasons.. The customer did not have a lot of money and really could not afford all that unnecessary work. I felt so bad about my incompetence, I did not charge for the actual parts that I needed to replace. I also did not charge for any service call or maintenance for the next 5 years.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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I see that there is an electronic Low Water Cut Off (LWCO) in the system. That adds more fun to the mix. Is there a possibility that the LWCO control has something to do with the reduction of the power to the gas valve? Could the noise be coming from that control? Could the control also have a similar noise that is not as loud? When was the last time the probe for that control checked for cleanliness. (it is right next to Godliness if you are looking). Recommended every 5 years for this inspection.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@EdTheHeaterMan the probe was cleaned last season - in fact the entire LWCO was replaced in 2020! The sound did not appear to be coming from it at all, but I will check again.Wow! I just read your previous response. Thank you so much for being so thorough; I truly appreciate it. So, if you were to triage our situation, would you replace the gas valve first? Is the transformer separate and can it be replaced? Or would you test the wires first? It’s strange that it does not make the noise every time.0
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@AshlynDL - changing the transformer is probably one of the easiest things to do. But @EdTheHeaterMan is correct, you need a tech with some knowledge and a voltmeter to get a better understanding of the problem.0
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oh let's try another thought,
when did this buzzing start ?
any chance you changed a thermostat to a modern, wifi, remote control, nest, type?
has anything else been changed when this started ?known to beat dead horses1 -
If you know the person who installed this boiler, never let them in your house again. They should lose their license, if they had one.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
@ethicalpaul it was installed long before we purchased the home. Please advise regarding what needs to be changed! We don’t want our safety compromised!@neilc we changed the thermostat location to a walk about two feet from where it originally was (kitchen renovation). Same thermostat. Didn’t run the heat this season prior to the location change to know if that’s what triggered.0
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There are those that will change parts until the problem goes away. They are called "parts changers" and have no real business doing repair service. They usually don't have a full understanding of how exactly the part they are changing actually works. The true tech understands the inner workings of the part and can perform tests to diagnose if that pare is actually the reason for the problem. Replicating the problem is the first step. Then, once the problem is happening, doing the tests to rule out possible causes. We do that with tools and meters to prove the fault source. Then we recommend the proper repair for the problem.AshlynDL said:@EdTheHeaterMan the probe was cleaned last season - in fact the entire LWCO was replaced in 2020! The sound did not appear to be coming from it at all, but I will check again.
Wow! I just read your previous response. Thank you so much for being so thorough; I truly appreciate it. So, if you were to triage our situation, would you replace the gas valve first? Is the transformer separate and can it be replaced? Or would you test the wires first? It’s strange that it does not make the noise every time.
Some are very illusive, as you can read with my oil tank customer, I started with the lowest cost obvious causes then eventually ended up with a very expensive repair. I missed one of the easiest repairs for 2 years.
I would start with checking every wire connection. the thermostat connections behind the wall, all the limit switches, all the wire nuts and all the screw terminals. every wire i can get my hand on would be pulled and shaken to see if I could get the wire to break, be loose or make a better connection. That is all free (no Parts) to the technician doing the diagnosis. Only labor and that can be completed within 1 hour on that boiler. (Since you will be paying a minimum service call fee, all that testing should not be costing much more).
If nothing is found in the wires, then I might do the transformer first and the gas valve second. Then perhaps a new LWCO as a last resort. (that is in the order of cost of the repair) There are those that will be able to pinpoint the problem before the "guessing which part to start with" version of this starts. I would hope that I have learned to be one of them, but that is after over 40 years of doing this stuff. A good tech with 3 years experience might not have ability to do that and will get the the part changing sooner than later.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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I just can't resist...
Did you check to see if there is a beehive behind the inspection door?
https://media.giphy.com/media/SCa5tmBGJgRTnBxShG/giphy-downsized-large.gif
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
3 -
5 years ago at start of heating season I got the buzzing noise from my gas valve. It ws intermittent and just before I was about to do something it stopped doing it for the rest of the season. The next year again at the start of the season it started buzzing but was a bit more persistent. Had the valve replaced (nothing else) and it has been fine ever since. Recently on this forum another individual seemingly had the same thing. Link below:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/189260/utica-peg112did-steam-boiler-not-firing-super-loud-buzzing
My thought is that the intermittency and perhaps more important the seeming improvement with use after start of heating season (that first year) could be consistent with a sticky solenoid in the gas valve, but, I am not a pro or expert. Just speaking from my experience. May just be a lot of poor gas valves out there.1 -
so that thermostat, and location change, becomes suspect,AshlynDL said:@neilc we changed the thermostat location to a walk about two feet from where it originally was (kitchen renovation). Same thermostat. Didn’t run the heat this season prior to the location change to know if that’s what triggered.
post a picture of the stat on the wall,
are there batteries? are they fresh?
are there additional wire nuts( as Ed questions and suggests under my 1st reply)
double check all wire nuts that you can
was a new wire run?
some modern stats are power consuming,
and might be stealing from the required power to keep that gas valve quiet,
can you check voltage at the valve, while it's chattering?
(for Paul)
can we get a better look at the pipes above the boiler?
one or 2 shots, boiler to ceiling,
I don't suspect unsafe, but, perhaps sloppy and not to spec
known to beat dead horses0 -
What @neilc said:so that thermostat, and location change, becomes suspect,I would try disconnecting that thermostat and see if the buzzing goes away.8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab1 -
I will upload some more pictures @neilc! Thank you ALL so much for all of this wonderful advice! @Alan (California Radiant) Forbes the thermostat was brand new last season because we had a short cycling issue that ended up being tied to our previous thermostat! A very very basic model.0
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even very basic models can be power stealing nowadays,
if it's a nest, we won't hold it against you,
but we kinda need to know what it is to help you along,
picture?
and the idea to disconnect the stat wire at the boiler, and to jump it there to rule out the stat or wire is worth the try,
known to beat dead horses
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Any relay or solenoid has a lower voltage limit for pull in, if the voltage drops below that the device will chatter.
Years ago I worked on a series of radar power supplies that used chunky 30A relays and some of those would chatter if turned on at the lower limit of their voltage range. When testing these supplies you ran them at the lower and upper limit of the input range (=/- 10% commercial or +/- 20% military). On a production run these devices will have a range of operation that distributes itself along a curve from low to high. We ended up having to select relays at the upper range to make sure they would pull in if snapped on at the test low voltage.
Your relay or solenoid may may just be at that upper range of the operational curve, mechanically tired, or your incoming power may be dipping low and causing the problem. You would have to measure the voltage across the coil to determine what the problem is. Gas valves do exhibit this operation more than relays.
BobSmith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
3PSI gauge0 -
Yeah sorry I didn’t want to distract from this thread about buzzing except to make sure you weren’t working with the installer, who piped it without a header at all. If you have banging or water getting to your radiators or shooting out of your radiators start a new thread for that and post some pictures of the big pipes near the boiler
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
Bumping this thread as I seem to have a very similar issue with my propane-fired Slant/Fin Victory VSPH-180 boiler that was newly installed in 2019 in the basement. The buzzing occurs only while the boiler is running, for the full term of that particular heating session, but only about a quarter of the heating sessions does the buzzing noise occur. It's pretty loud - I can hear it from upstairs in the house.
I have a video, but need to figure out a way to upload since I can't upload directly. It seems to be coming from the side of the boiler where the direct-vent fan is located, but I couldn't determine exactly what device on the boiler was making the noise.
Everything seems to be functioning fine. I recall first hearing this noise towards the end of the heating season a few months ago.
While I'm not a HVAC tech, I'm reasonably technically proficient. I just recently fixed my 2-zone A/C system which had two independent failures in each zone - a motor failure in one, and a capacitor in the other.
Appreciate any suggestions.
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Best to create a new thread. recycling old ones gets confusing.
Include a link to this one if it contains useful information
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Here's a link to the video of the boiler as it was making the buzzing noise. I'm not so sure of my guess that it's coming from the blower. Also, it's probably rather normal that the blower housing is hot.
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Make sure there are no obstructions in the venting. I think I hear a scraping noise behind the loud noise. Is the fan rubbing on the housing? If you find it and fix it, take an amp reading on the motor to make sure its okay. They usually draw about 1.5 amps. If it needs replacement, it comes as a whole assembly (motor, fan, housing, gasket). Check the I&O manual.
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Sorry for the delayed response - thanks for the feedback. I'm certain now that the noise is NOT coming from the fan area. I've had the shroud off for the last week and when it finally made the buzzing noise yesterday I ran downstairs to investigate. Using the "redneck stethoscope" (a long screwdriver), I was able to determine that the noise is indeed coming from the solenoid atop the gas valve, as pictured below. I tried tapping on it from multiple sides and it didn't really effect the buzzing.
Can this be replaced without venting the fuel line? Yes, I see the warning label. But I also know in today's world we need warning labels on everything.
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Unfortunately, that isn't a solenoid on top of the gas valve, that is the gas valve. Mechanically speaking, replacing it isn't especially difficult—although it may be tedious—but the new one should be set up with instruments, especially a combustion analyzer. The combustion adjustments aren't a DIY-friendly job because of the costs involved.
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And, by the way, that is one warning label — unlike Proposition 65 and so many others — which really means it.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like I'll be calling someone in - most likely the place that installed it. Pretty sad that it didn't even last 5 years, don't ya think?
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Yeah, that's not a very long run. The good news (?) is that there aren't a lot of external events that will cause a gas valve to chatter like last, so it's not likely to reoccure.
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Actually, there is one problem you might have them check — low voltage or poor connections.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
Well, I should be able to do that. I'm seeing black, white, red, and green wires coming into the unit. I'm thinking there's probably "at rest" and "powered" tests I can be doing with a multi-meter. The easy one would simply be re-seating all the connections and adding a bit of Kopr-Shield to each of the contact points..
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Go for it.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0
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