real experience with all electric

pecmsg

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

propane grill on the deck. propane Coleman camping stove. Recharge my Riobi flashlights in the truck using the little inverter. We survived a week with no heat one October and it was cold.

No LP

Electric truck

Its going to be a cold october!

WMno57

random12345 said:

People may have a change of heart about this yet...All those people who are pushing for gas bans on one hand and also make a big deal about "affordable housing" for minorities and low-income earners on the other are going to have to face the fact that they can't have their cake and eat it too unless the added cost of the gas ban for those people, where it exists, is paid for some other way.

I know exactly how "those people who are pushing" intend to pay for it. It's a new tax. A tax we have never had in this country. A tax that is a terrible idea economically. A tax that other countries have tried, realized was a mistake, and repealed. A tax that the followers of "those people" think will never apply to them or affect them, but it will. Green is the new Red. History repeats itself because we as humanity do not learn from our mistakes.

hot_rod

Or maybe some of this taxpayer money gets shifted to electrification

vtfarmer

To steer this thread back to the original topic: "real experience with all electric", I will contribute my own real experience with all electric. The short version: it works great if your power is cheap and has a stable rate case (ie: the price won't go up easily), you keep your heat set pretty high, you can work on heat pumps, and your power either doesn't go out of you have a giant diesel generator with on site fuel storage.

The long version:

A couple of years ago I moved from Vermont, where electricity was about $0.18/kWh when I left and where I heated a drafty old 2600 sq ft farmhouse with an outdoor wood boiler and used about $200 of electricity and maybe $20 of LP for the stove and dryer per month, on average. I spent roughly the month of May every year felling, skidding, bucking, splitting, and stacking the 12-15 cords of wood I would need to feed the forest eater for the following winter. I heated my DHW with an indirect off the wood boiler in the winter (October-May in VT) and a homemade heat pump water heater in the summer (which was really fun to build but a terrible water heater as it took ~3 hours to recover the 50 gallon tank and made the basement cold and clammy, by August most summers I would cave in and switch it to resistance heat). When the power went out in the winter I could run my wood boiler and associated circulator pumps on a cheap-o 3500 watt generator.

In 2020 I moved to the Blue Ridge Mountains in Virginia where I ended up in a larger house (~8000 sq ft of insulated indoor space, maybe 4500-5k of that is finished and probably 6k is heated). I have an electric kitchen, electric dryer, two 50 gallon electric water heaters, two ducted heat pumps, a PTAC, and a cassette type minis split, and electric baseboard in some smaller areas. To maintain the level of comfort we used to have with CI radiators in VT set at 68 we need to keep the gaggle of heat pumps set at 72. Last winter in February we used 4.4 megawatt hours of electricity at a cost of about $470 (good ole Dominion smashing those atoms and burning that coal). This winter the price for electricity has gone up 14%, but that is supposedly (I read the rate case) locked in for 3 years. I professionally traded power in PJM (the wholesale market that Dominion in VA and the mid-Atlantic in general) is part of) for many years and believe Dominion can maintain this rate since they have the capacity to do it.

We get ice, snow, and summer storms here for which I have a PTO driven 15 kW generator that I can run from my tractors if needed. This won't carry the ~25 kW of resistance heat in the place but it should keep a couple of the HPs running if needed. The property is a farm so I have several tractors and bulk diesel fuel storage which I try to always have mostly full going into the winter when I'm done harvesting crops in the fall.

Oh, and the maintenance: I installed and serviced my wood boiler and the backup oil boiler in VT more as a matter of pride than for any other reason. In VA I've had two of my heat pumps have issues shortly after buying the place and had so much trouble finding someone willing to work on them ("they're 17 years old, you should replace them") for a reasonable price ($CEN,SORED.00 to replace a TXV!) that I ended up going to the local community college to get my EPA 608 cert and get a base understanding of how to work on these systems, bought a recovery machine and hundreds of dollars of other tools, and successfully made the repairs myself. I probably broke even on the cost if you discount my time, but it was a lot of fun to learn about refrigeration and I can fix my systems in the future if need be.

random12345

That's an interesting story. Mind if I ask why you moved from VT to VA?

pedmec

I really believe that the people who push the hardest for this are the least informed people. The amount of energy required just to run your common everyday appliance in your residence is truly astounding. Where i live its just not feasible. If you have a conventional heat pump with resistance heaters your screwed. Some of the bills customers get are over $1000 a month in the heating season. $1000 a month electric bills is more than their real estate taxes. Developments that installed all electric get flipped all the time. The only ones that like it are the real estate agents. Nobody stays for more than two years. Probably cost more money this year too considering everything has skyrocketed. I'll start getting calls anyday now with people crying (really crying) about their electric bill.

I understand we ain't going to install conventional heat pumps anymore. Heat pump now uses inverter technology, vrf . But i don't think they make a heat pump clothes dryer or a heat pump stove. You just can't solve this overnight.

GGross

@pedmec

Not all inverter heat pumps are considered a VRF, VRF refers to a pretty specific type heat pump that is capable of simultaneous heating and cooling from a single outdoor unit. They are not common at all in residential, and to be sure none of my manufacturers even offer one in residential (yet, they will be here next year roughly)

vtfarmer

random12345 said:

That's an interesting story. Mind if I ask why you moved from VT to VA?

High taxes, cold winters, and increasingly nutty local politics.

pedmec said:

I understand we ain't going to install conventional heat pumps anymore. Heat pump now uses inverter technology, vrf . But i don't think they make a heat pump clothes dryer or a heat pump stove. You just can't solve this overnight.

You can still buy single speed, simple systems but agreed they're not as common anymore. The real cliff for me will be when R410a is phased out.

And they do make heat pump dryers, I installed one in the inlaw apartment at my place back in VT and it worked surprisingly well, but took ~2 hours to dry a small load of laundry, needed to have the HX cleaned with a little brush every time you used it, and it cost a lot of money.

Sal Santamaura

JUGHNE said:

Sal, I assume you have all of that hardware at your house, will it also charge your EV?

You've been following along and posting in a number of threads where we've disagreed on anthropogenic global warming, so you already know that I don't own an EV. And you know why, namely, that given the very small number of miles I drive since retirement, replacing my IC-powered vehicle would, over my actuarially probable remaining lifetime, result in more CO emissions, not fewer.
The local utility, San Diego Gas & Electric, sends out individualized "energy reports" several times each year. Every time one arrives, it indicates that our house uses less than 1/3 the kWh our neighbors do. I have not invested in photovoltaics yet, but might nonetheless as prices of them continue to fall.
Utility power failures here over the last 44 years have been extremely rare. When they do occur, given the heating design day for this city is around 37 degrees F, and that's rarely if ever attained (especially as the climate warms), I have no concerns about pipes freezing. The only real risk might be food spoilage, but we know enough to keep the appliance's doors closed and eat things that are normally stored outside it until power is restored. We've never lost a scrap of food or gone hungry. Nonetheless, if we move to a new home or build one, an induction range as well as battery power backup will be included.

Implying hypocrisy because I don't currently own "all of that hardware" is a rather lame attempt to use whataboutism against mandates that drive electrification. It doesn't consider the time frames and newly-installed nature of those regulations. It feels like desperate flailing. And the entire opposition on this forum reeks of heating professionals who just don't want to adapt. Those who refuse will be left behind and not stem the tide. That will ensure they become as irrelevant after the transition as Fotomat did in this age of cell phone cameras.

JakeCK

pedmec said:

But i don't think they make a heat pump clothes dryer or a heat pump stove. You just can't solve this overnight.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/LG-Electronics-24-in-W-4-2-cu-ft-Compact-Ventless-Stackable-Electric-Dryer-with-Dual-Inverter-HeatPump-Technology-in-White-DLHC1455W/316457781
Heat pump clothes dryers have been in Europe for years, maybe even decades if I'm not mistaken. 

And while not a heat pump, induction stoves are up to 10% more efficient than traditional electric stoves and up to 3x more efficient then gas stoves as well. 

JakeCK

vtfarmer said: but took ~2 hours to dry a small load of laundry, needed to have the HX cleaned with a little brush every time you used it, and it cost a lot of money.

This smells of exaggeration. I've heard of complaints about the whirlpool model needing it's coils cleaned after about a year and the whole unit needs to be torn down to effectively get to it, but the other models on the market I have heard no such complaints. I believe LG even has a self cleaning feature. Unfortunately that whirlpool model is also the only full size 7cu ft model in the US currently, that is the only reason I'm holding off right now.

vtfarmer

JakeCK said:

vtfarmer said: but took ~2 hours to dry a small load of laundry, needed to have the HX cleaned with a little brush every time you used it, and it cost a lot of money.

This smells of exaggeration.

I had the Samsung, I can provide runtime proof in the form of meter data from the SCADA system I had on my house if you'll believe me that the particular load profile I say belongs to the HP dryer actually does belong to it. The small load size can be proven by comparing drum volume with conventional dryers and the manual itself instructs the end user to clean the HX after I think five or so loads, but I was in the habit of doing it after every load because it did pick up gunk fairly quickly.

To be clear, the HP dryer was great for a retiree who does a load of laundry once a week; for a family with multiple children not so much (or you would need about three of them).

Hot_water_fan

There’s no reason to use heat pump dryers if you don’t want to since electric dryers already exist. 

WMno57

@Sal Santamaura How about an electric resistance water heater and a simple electric resistance (not induction) oven. I have both and like them. If you do this, you could shut off your gas outside at the meter all summer. Might get better insurance rates. Might make your house easier to sell someday. You do live in area prone to earthquakes.

Sal Santamaura

WMno57 said:

@Sal Santamaura How about an electric resistance water heater and a simple electric resistance (not induction) oven. I have both and like them...

All kitchen appliances are original to this 29-year-old house, which we purchased new. The wall oven is electric resistance, and we like it. The gas cooktop is like new, since we're not big cooks. One of the benefits of living here is that I grill in the back yard year-round. When that grill reaches its end of service life, I'll seriously consider an electric replacement. Replacing the cooktop is just like my IC-powered car. It gets used so little, I'd likely increase, rather than decrease, CO emissions by replacing it.
The water heater in the garage is the first replacement. It's now over 17 years old. If it goes before 2030, I'll likely take advantage of the state's rebate for the necessary electrical work and have a heat-pump type installed. Before then, let's see just how long it will last.

WMno57 said:

...If you do this, you could shut off your gas outside at the meter all summer. Might get better insurance rates. Might make your house easier to sell someday. You do live in area prone to earthquakes.

Unlike most others around here, decades ago I took advantage of Southern California Gas Company's offer and had a seismic shutoff installed at the meter. Also, per code, the replacement water heater was very securely strapped to structure when installed. My insurance rates already include all the discounts available.

JakeCK

Hot_water_fan said:

There’s no reason to use heat pump dryers if you don’t want to since electric dryers already exist. 

Wrong, heat pump dryers are ventless. If you are really chasing after as low of an energy use house as possible not venting large amounts of conditioned air to the great outdoors is always a good thing. They are also great for right places or laundry in areas where venting would be difficult or impossible. 

Hot_water_fan

Wrong, heat pump dryers are ventless. If you are really chasing after as low of an energy use house as possible not venting large amounts of conditioned air to the great outdoors is always a good thing. They are also great for right places or laundry in areas where venting would be difficult or impossible.

Fair enough. What's the MCA for these units? Avoiding a panel upgrade would be another benefit.

Larry Weingarten

Hi @Sal Santamaura About your water heater... It essentially will last as long as you keep a working anode in it. At 17 years it just might be time to check that!

Yours, Larry

JakeCK

Hot_water_fan said:

Wrong, heat pump dryers are ventless. If you are really chasing after as low of an energy use house as possible not venting large amounts of conditioned air to the great outdoors is always a good thing. They are also great for right places or laundry in areas where venting would be difficult or impossible.

Fair enough. What's the MCA for these units? Avoiding a panel upgrade would be another benefit.

They still require the same amperage circuit as far as I know. 30 amps if I'm not mistaken. 

JakeCK

vtfarmer said:

vtfarmer said: but took ~2 hours to dry a small load of laundry, needed to have the HX cleaned with a little brush every time you used it, and it cost a lot of money.

This smells of exaggeration.

I had the Samsung, I can provide runtime proof in the form of meter data from the SCADA system I had on my house if you'll believe me that the particular load profile I say belongs to the HP dryer actually does belong to it. The small load size can be proven by comparing drum volume with conventional dryers and the manual itself instructs the end user to clean the HX after I think five or so loads, but I was in the habit of doing it after every load because it did pick up gunk fairly quickly. To be clear, the HP dryer was great for a retiree who does a load of laundry once a week; for a family with multiple children not so much (or you would need about three of them).

Then provide the usage data. 

However you just admitted you were cleaning the coils 5x as often as recommended by the owners manual. 

As far as the size is concerned that is the reason I am not buying one yet. All of the models currently at market are 4cu ft save one that has a lot of complaints about the coils getting gunked up after about a year and there is no easy way to access it. A really big design flaw from the sounds of it. I know one of the smaller models has a cleaning feature where it flushes the recovered water over the coils to clean them.

WMno57

Sal Santamaura said:

the state's rebate for the necessary electrical work and have a heat-pump type installed.

Those rebates will probably get a lot bigger next year. Details should be coming this Fall. This is due to the Inflation Reduction Act. I was and am not in favor of the IRA2022. I actually think the name is tragically ironic. But this is Heating Help. People come to The Wall to gather information so they can make better financial decisions for their families. My family has two homes that are possible candidates to go all electric. That's why I started a thread titled HEERAH. My intent is to keep Post 2 in that thread updated as the Department of Energy issues rules to the State programs.
HEERAH is an acronym for High Efficiency Electric Home Rebate Act.
If anyone else has information about HEERAH, please add it to that thread:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/189316/

JakeCK

WMno57 said: I actually think the name is tragically ironic.

It is isn't it? Lol long term there is a chance it could save homeowners money. Short term, market forces namely supply and demand are going to have their way with this.

Sal Santamaura

Larry Weingarten said:

Hi @Sal Santamaura About your water heater... It essentially will last as long as you keep a working anode in it. At 17 years it just might be time to check that!

Yours, Larry

Thanks for prompting me, Larry. I just looked into what it takes to replace the rod. Given that our city's distribution system delivered water averages pH 8.1, my laziness means motivation to do it right now is lacking. Let me think about things a bit longer; I might reconsider.

DJDrew

jumper said:

This is a lesson of more general value to American society at a time when we seem to be lurching head- long toward the disaster of being solely reliant on the electric grid by orphaning natural-gas appliances and the utilities that service them.
DAVID L. NICANDRI
Tumwater, Wash.

The cast iron boiler in my basement needs electricity to run. My neighbors gas instantaneous hot water heater needs electricity to run. All the gas hot air furnaces need electricity to run.

We already are, even with primarily using gas and oil for heating, reliant on the electric grid to run the said gas heating appliances. The ship has sailed on if we should be so reliant on electricity, we already are. The time is now to be building out the electric grid, adding capacity and redundancy.

neilc

but in an outage i can run my gasoline generator and power my nat gas furnace, and tankless domestic,
I'll need much more generation to "electrify" comfortably

fugmin

Being rural, we have no NG. Already all electric with coal/wood stove.

JakeCK

That's a lota coulda, woulda, maybe. Not all that many people actually have generators or even the ability or know how to use them correctly and safely. Or even that much fuel storage on hand. Most have maybe a stale five gallon gas can for the lawn mower in the middle of January. That will get them all of one night of power with a generator regardless of what kind of heat they have. 

And then they have to have a transfer switch or interlock kit, or a boiler/furnace that isn't hard wired so they can use an extension cord and hopefully they have a long enough one so they can get the thing far enough away from the house not to kill themselves...

All that said a 30 amp 240 generator can deliver 7200watts. Which if you are getting a COP of 2  on a heat pump is around 49k btuh. In theory if I could get that level of performance at design(7f) out of a heat pump I could just about heat my house. In fact that is a tall order and it would fall far short of that. And of course I won't be running anything else. That is also worst case scenario. If it's only say 35f outside I might very well be getting a COP above that, the heat won't have to run the whole hour and the house wouldn't need anywhere near 50k btuh to stay warm. 

Also the closer an engine runs to full output the more efficient it actually is. That same generator only powering a single light bulb is really inefficient.

Personally if I'm going to go the all electric route I'm going get my old fireplace up to snuff and install an insert and have that as a backup form of heat that isn't dependant on any type of infrastructure, electric or NG.

Also want to add that this was in theory. I know that a 30amp generator would probably never be able to even start up a heat pump big enough for the whole house. The in rush current would kill it. But a smaller mini split would be possible.

My 30amp 120v inverter gen can power my RV's 15k btuh ac and microwave along with most everything else at the same time. It's working hard for sure but it handles it.

Jamie Hall

As usual, different strokes for different folks. I entirely agree with @JakeCK the most people -- in fact, a vast majority! -- either do not have a generator at all, or it isn't big enough to power much, or it isn't set up to be hooked up safely -- or all of the above. Never mind having fuel on hand or actually running the thing from time to time to see if it actually starts and puts out any juice.

On the other hand, some folks (the wealthy -- these things aren't cheap!) have automatic generators powered by natural gas, which is great so long as there is natural gas.

Then there are farmer folks like us, who have a two 16 KW gasoline generators plus a 50 KW power takeoff driven generator (frequency stability is lousy -- but it puts out a lot of power), and the fuel on hand and the cables and transfer switches to make use of the power.

The only real moral is -- have a plan B for what you are going to do when the power fails. In fact several -- 20 minutes? Live with it. 10 days? How much fuel do you have on hand? etc.

random12345

JakeCK said:

Personally if I'm going to go the all electric route I'm going get my old fireplace up to snuff and install an insert and have that as a backup form of heat that isn't dependant on any type of infrastructure, electric or NG.

And this is exactly why I'm concerned that if gas is banned, and electricity prices continue to increase significantly faster than inflation, people are going to realize that an EPA certified wood stove or an efficient fireplace insert is a great deal. It'll potentially save you some money in the dead of winter when your heat pump is on resistance, and it's an excellent, relatively cheap backup in case the power goes out. What's not to like? Of course anyone who does this will be releasing thousands of times more pollution than they otherwise would burning gas and in a densely populated (sub)urban area where the public health damages could be much higher than the avoided climate damages from not burning gas.

https://theguardian.com/environment/2021/oct/22/pollutionwatch-the-solvable-problem-of-home-wood-burners

I would agree with you though that the whole "What happens when the grid goes down?" argument against gas bans doesn't make much sense to me. Are there any gas boiler/furnaces/dryers that don't use electricity as well as gas?

Hot_water_fan

According to the EIA, 40% of US homes with space heating are already electric, so it’s a “problem” many Americans will probably never pay attention to.

JakeCK

random12345 said:

Personally if I'm going to go the all electric route I'm going get my old fireplace up to snuff and install an insert and have that as a backup form of heat that isn't dependant on any type of infrastructure, electric or NG.

And this is exactly why I'm concerned that if gas is banned, and electricity prices continue to increase significantly faster than inflation, people are going to realize that an EPA certified wood stove or an efficient fireplace insert is a great deal. It'll potentially save you some money in the dead of winter when your heat pump is on resistance, and it's an excellent, relatively cheap backup in case the power goes out. What's not to like? Of course anyone who does this will be releasing thousands of times more pollution than they otherwise would burning gas and in a densely populated (sub)urban area where the public health damages could be much higher than the avoided climate damages from not burning gas. https://theguardian.com/environment/2021/oct/22/pollutionwatch-the-solvable-problem-of-home-wood-burners I would agree with you though that the whole "What happens when the grid goes down?" argument against gas bans doesn't make much sense to me. Are there any gas boiler/furnaces/dryers that don't use electricity as well as gas?

I wouldn't be too concerned about that. The thing about using wood as a primary heat source is that it is a lot of work. From cutting, splitting, storing and drying the wood to the actual maintenance of the fireplace it's self... It's a pita. Growing up that was what we used most of the winter because propane was so expensive. It sucked and I hated it. People talk to me about the ambiance of a crackling fireplace and I still roll my eyes. 

Most will be fully cured of that delusion once they have to put in the work. 

And if not just wait until they find the critters that make the wood stack their home. Ever piss off a wasps nest? Or as you are carrying in load of wood find that gigantic spider you watched all summer hitched a ride too and is now crawling up your arm? Lol

WMno57

MikeAmann said:

WMno57 said:

Make that an Impossible Whopper. Meat is bad for the planet.

Who told you that? A cow?

I was being sarcastic. I live next to a small cow-calf operation. One bull, seven cows, and every spring seven calves. From my viewpoint they appear to have an idyllic life loafing around their pasture. I've never had an Impossible Whopper and probably never will. I suspect the sodium in that monstrosity would be a deal breaker for me. I am trying to make my diet more plant based to keep the arthritis in check and lose weight. But that's my personal decision. Everyone else should eat what they want.

random12345

JakeCK said:

I wouldn't be too concerned about that. The thing about using wood as a primary heat source is that it is a lot of work. From cutting, splitting, storing and drying the wood to the actual maintenance of the fireplace it's self... It's a pita. Growing up that was what we used most of the winter because propane was so expensive. It sucked and I hated it. People talk to me about the ambiance of a crackling fireplace and I still roll my eyes. 

Most will be fully cured of that delusion once they have to put in the work. 

And if not just wait until they find the critters that make the wood stack their home. Ever piss off a wasps nest? Or as you are carrying in load of wood find that gigantic spider you watched all summer hitched a ride too and is now crawling up your arm? Lol

True, and that part is encouraging, but I gotta tell you there is an awful lot of wood smoke in my neighborhood. In urban areas, there a lot of people who like ambiance burning. Just go down to the local supermarket and buy a package of cordwood. It's all taken care of. Or you could buy a bag of wood pellets. A 40 pound bag from Home Depot is $6.48. In bulk, it's probably even cheaper. The work is in cleaning out the ashes in the stove/fireplace, and the cost of getting the chimney swept every year...

Jamie Hall

I thought, just for the sake of amusement, to think about... heating a bit.

Over the course of the last 80 years or so, I've had occasion to live in and care for residences -- mostly houses, a condo and an apartment -- with various heating sources, and come to have some opinions.

All personal, for what they're worth.

Wood heat (stoves): this is young person's game. It's very satisfying and pleasant-- to come in on a cold winter night to a nice hot wood stove is wonderful. But it is a young person's game, unless you par someone else to cut, stack, season, split, and deliver your wood.

Forced hot air: simple in principle. Unsatisfying in terms of feeling "warm" unless the thermostat is cranked well up there.

Gravity hot air: like forced hot air, but a good bit harder to control (that was powered, by the way, by a coal fired furnace)

Electric resistance (baseboards): the easiest to install and care for, lends itself to room by room control. Very very pricey in much of the US to run.

Heat pump: the jury is still out (just installed this summer. Sorry. Let yet you know later).

Forced hot water: Fussy, but easy to control if done right. Good comfort with radiators, so so with baseboards (I've had both)

Gravity hot water: incredibly simple and reliable, but hard to control. Very comfortable.

Passive solar: hard to control, but very comfortable and simple. Lowest running cost (like... zero)

And last: STEAM! I've never yet found a heat source as comfortable to be around (except wood stoves). Simple, reliable. Much my favourite.

Fuels: wood, as noted above, is a young man's game. Coal -- I have no experience with automatic stokers. Hand firing is, again, a young man's game. Oil -- never had a supply problem as such (though I've hit a few somewhat unreliable suppliers). Gas -- where you can get it and it's reliable, nice. LP -- I'd not use in preference to oil, but it's generally simpler equipment. Price quite variable. Electricity -- electric rates are incredibly variable. If electricity is cheap, it's a pretty good energy source. If it's not, it's not.

WMno57

Jamie Hall said:

Heat pump: the jury is still out (just installed this summer. Sorry. Let yet you know later).

Please give us a full report with pictures. Very interested in your Engineer's opinion of it. That would make a great thread in the AC & heatpump section. Have you named Cedric's little sibling yet? May I suggest Bernie, Jennifer, Liz, or Alexandria?

Jamie Hall

WMno57 said:

Jamie Hall said:

Heat pump: the jury is still out (just installed this summer. Sorry. Let yet you know later).

Please give us a full report with pictures. Very interested in your Engineer's opinion of it. That would make a great thread in the AC & heatpump section. Have you named Cedric's little sibling yet? May I suggest Bernie, Jennifer, Liz, or Alexandria?

Will do.

Wellness

It's not just the risk of storms and hurricanes that puts mass electrification at risk, the nation's infrastructure, and the world's for that matter, can't handle universal adoption of all-electric homes especially when you throw EVs into the mix.

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

As usual, different strokes for different folks. I entirely agree with @JakeCK the most people -- in fact, a vast majority! -- either do not have a generator at all, or it isn't big enough to power much, or it isn't set up to be hooked up safely -- or all of the above. Never mind having fuel on hand or actually running the thing from time to time to see if it actually starts and puts out any juice.

On the other hand, some folks (the wealthy -- these things aren't cheap!) have automatic generators powered by natural gas, which is great so long as there is natural gas.

Then there are farmer folks like us, who have a two 16 KW gasoline generators plus a 50 KW power takeoff driven generator (frequency stability is lousy -- but it puts out a lot of power), and the fuel on hand and the cables and transfer switches to make use of the power.

The only real moral is -- have a plan B for what you are going to do when the power fails. In fact several -- 20 minutes? Live with it. 10 days? How much fuel do you have on hand? etc.

So,
Farmers are rich?

Jamie Hall

ChrisJ said:

Jamie Hall said:

As usual, different strokes for different folks. I entirely agree with @JakeCK the most people -- in fact, a vast majority! -- either do not have a generator at all, or it isn't big enough to power much, or it isn't set up to be hooked up safely -- or all of the above. Never mind having fuel on hand or actually running the thing from time to time to see if it actually starts and puts out any juice.

On the other hand, some folks (the wealthy -- these things aren't cheap!) have automatic generators powered by natural gas, which is great so long as there is natural gas.

Then there are farmer folks like us, who have a two 16 KW gasoline generators plus a 50 KW power takeoff driven generator (frequency stability is lousy -- but it puts out a lot of power), and the fuel on hand and the cables and transfer switches to make use of the power.

The only real moral is -- have a plan B for what you are going to do when the power fails. In fact several -- 20 minutes? Live with it. 10 days? How much fuel do you have on hand? etc.

So,
Farmers are rich?

Hardly. One of the 16KW is young, at 25 years. The other -- came with my son in law -- is a little older at 30. The PTO driven one we acquired when we still did dairy, to power the milkers and the coolers when the power went out. That was in... 1958.

None of them is automatic by any means. Power goes out, wait a while and see if it was somebody hitting a pole, cuss, fire up a generator to let it warm up, drag out the cables, hook them to the transfer switch, throw switch.

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

ChrisJ said:

Jamie Hall said:

As usual, different strokes for different folks. I entirely agree with @JakeCK the most people -- in fact, a vast majority! -- either do not have a generator at all, or it isn't big enough to power much, or it isn't set up to be hooked up safely -- or all of the above. Never mind having fuel on hand or actually running the thing from time to time to see if it actually starts and puts out any juice.

On the other hand, some folks (the wealthy -- these things aren't cheap!) have automatic generators powered by natural gas, which is great so long as there is natural gas.

Then there are farmer folks like us, who have a two 16 KW gasoline generators plus a 50 KW power takeoff driven generator (frequency stability is lousy -- but it puts out a lot of power), and the fuel on hand and the cables and transfer switches to make use of the power.

The only real moral is -- have a plan B for what you are going to do when the power fails. In fact several -- 20 minutes? Live with it. 10 days? How much fuel do you have on hand? etc.

So,
Farmers are rich?

Hardly. One of the 16KW is young, at 25 years. The other -- came with my son in law -- is a little older at 30. The PTO driven one we acquired when we still did dairy, to power the milkers and the coolers when the power went out. That was in... 1958.

None of them is automatic by any means. Power goes out, wait a while and see if it was somebody hitting a pole, cuss, fire up a generator to let it warm up, drag out the cables, hook them to the transfer switch, throw switch.

I find it hard to believe you cuss.