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New pressuretrol and settings

Fmassarotto_9
Fmassarotto_9 Member Posts: 94
edited October 2022 in Gas Heating
Is this a good setting for pressuretol? 2 story house, the second floor is always cold. so i'm trying to make it warmer. the old pressuretol always got stuck and never refired the boiler 

Comments

  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,084
    that should work,

    is the pigtail clear all the way back into the boiler?
    did you blow back thru it? easily?
    known to beat dead horses
  • Fmassarotto_9
    Fmassarotto_9 Member Posts: 94
    edited October 2022
    neilc said:
    that should work, is the pigtail clear all the way back into the boiler? did you blow back thru it? easily?
    i took the pigtail and additional piping off and ran it under hot water. it went through clean. and then i flushed the water through the nut on the bottom of the sight glass which was absolutely black.
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,084
    post a picture of how the pigtail connects to the boiler, or to the sightglass,
    known to beat dead horses
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,352
    Pressutrol has nothing to do with uneven heating, it's all in the venting.

    I noticed in a previous thread you said you have no main venting, that will be the most likely cause of the problem. It is certainly the start of the solution for uneven heating.

    The varivalves you are using are extremely aggressive vents and just about every person I've seen come here with them ends up having issues, water and spitting being high on that list. I have no first hand experience with them, but have yet to see someone report good service from them.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • Fmassarotto_9
    Fmassarotto_9 Member Posts: 94
    edited October 2022
    KC_Jones said:
    Pressutrol has nothing to do with uneven heating, it's all in the venting. I noticed in a previous thread you said you have no main venting, that will be the most likely cause of the problem. It is certainly the start of the solution for uneven heating. The varivalves you are using are extremely aggressive vents and just about every person I've seen come here with them ends up having issues, water and spitting being high on that list. I have no first hand experience with them, but have yet to see someone report good service from them.

    on the other hand, vari valves are the only things i've ever used. before me and my family moved in a very well talked about hvac guy use to live here. he installed the boiler prior to us moving in around 2006. He's always used varivalves and from 2006 to 2021/2022 i never ever ever had issues. my issue started february of 2022 and no expert has been able to figure it out. Main vents have never existed in this house. Whether they should be is a different story. i just know that in my 16 year living here i've never had any issues like this which is why i'm having a hard time believing the lack of venting is causing this issue
  • Fmassarotto_9
    Fmassarotto_9 Member Posts: 94
    neilc said:
    post a picture of how the pigtail connects to the boiler, or to the sightglass,



  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,084
    I think we all missed a crumb in that old thread,
    ~ " the upstairs hiss for 20 seconds then shut off with no heat in the rad",
    and that's the aggressive speed KC mentions above,
    steam is jetting thru the rad right to the vent and closing the vent before it displaces enough air in the rad to heat it,


    pecmsg said:

    Are the vents working at all?

    yes the upstairs vent they make a noise for 20 seconds and they shut but the rads barely get hot, by the time the lower portion by the inlet valve gets hot the thermostat shuts off 


    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/187785/no-heat-on-second-floor#latest
    known to beat dead horses
  • Fmassarotto_9
    Fmassarotto_9 Member Posts: 94
    neilc said:
    I think we all missed a crumb in that old thread, ~ " the upstairs hiss for 20 seconds then shut off with no heat in the rad", and that's the aggressive speed KC mentions above, steam is jetting thru the rad right to the vent and closing the vent before it displaces enough air in the rad to heat it,
    pecmsg said:
    Are the vents working at all?

    yes the upstairs vent they make a noise for 20 seconds and they shut but the rads barely get hot, by the time the lower portion by the inlet valve gets hot the thermostat shuts off 

    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/187785/no-heat-on-second-floor#latest

    i am by no means a steam specialist but i believe the reason this is happening is one of the following 
    1) The thermostat is new, it's a digital thermostat  model # 

    TH6110D1005. 

    When the thermostat reaches a temperature let's say 65. The boiler continues to run. I use to have one of the dial thermostats, with those as soon as it hit the temperature the boiler shut off and only came on when it fell below the set temp

    Or possible 2)
    The pressuretrol use to be set higher, the house use to heat quicker and warmer, the boiler never ran long and all 2nd floor rooms were warm. 

    Could be a number of things, but this started soon after the thermostat change

  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,352


    Couple things to consider.
    1. Steam should be absolutely 100% silent at all times, if it's not you have a problem.
    2. Vents should never ever hiss. You stated in one of your first threads "I know they always hiss", that is false and indicates to me you've had a problem since day 1.
    3. Changing vents may address water usage issues, but they would have to be bad to the point of your house being a steam bath in order to be the sole cause of excess water usage. You shouldn't use more than about a gallon per month, preferably less. More than that and you should be looking for leaks.
    4. Main vents are a one of the most critical components to even heating. Can you get semi even heating without them? Perhaps, but it's going to be very very touchy, one tiny change and it will be all over the place.
    5. Aggressive radiator vents will almost always cause problems on a typical system. Noise, spitting, uneven heating, not just the house, but an individual radiator heating in odd ways.
    6. Setting the pressurtrol higher is a cover up for improper venting. Keep this in mind, that is a pressure safety limit, not an operating control. The pressure of the system is a function of the boiler size, to system size, and the venting capacity. The pressure is back pressure, it isn't made at the boiler, it's the air in the system pushing against the flow of steam, higher pressure, slower steam, uneven heating. Setting it higher is never ever the solution for anything. It will make differences, but it's not a proper fix. If it was set higher for years, then it was wrong for years. BTW setting it higher will use more fuel to do the same job that could be accomplished at lower pressure with proper venting.

    A thermostat is an on off switch, that's it. It won't make uneven heating, but it can bring to light existing problems you have had with the system for years, that, as you indicate, you think you didn't have.

    I would suggest you've actually had problems for years, that when all put together gave you some reasonable heat. Now that one little thing has changed, a bunch of other problems have come to light, that were there the whole time.

    Don't do anything with the thermostat.
    Get main venting sorted out.
    Turn all the varivalves way down, including the second floor. With proper main venting you shouldn't need all that speed.
    Verify you don't have any leaks in the system.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,084
    from the other thread,
    all vents downstairs are mostly closed ,
    and upstairs open,
    try closing the upstairs somewhere between mostly and 3/4s closed,
    remember, those are aggressive fast inaccurate vents,

    vent the mains (which you don't have) fast,
    vent the rads slow,

    and if you think it's the thermostat,
    try jumping the thermostat at the boiler and let the boiler run,
    will it heat evenly now?
    is the thermostat in a room with a hot radiator?
    close that vent tight,
    and or pull that vent and plug that rad vent hole, temporarily to test,
    known to beat dead horses
  • Fmassarotto_9
    Fmassarotto_9 Member Posts: 94
    KC_Jones said:
    Couple things to consider. 1. Steam should be absolutely 100% silent at all times, if it's not you have a problem. 2. Vents should never ever hiss. You stated in one of your first threads "I know they always hiss", that is false and indicates to me you've had a problem since day 1. 3. Changing vents may address water usage issues, but they would have to be bad to the point of your house being a steam bath in order to be the sole cause of excess water usage. You shouldn't use more than about a gallon per month, preferably less. More than that and you should be looking for leaks. 4. Main vents are a one of the most critical components to even heating. Can you get semi even heating without them? Perhaps, but it's going to be very very touchy, one tiny change and it will be all over the place. 5. Aggressive radiator vents will almost always cause problems on a typical system. Noise, spitting, uneven heating, not just the house, but an individual radiator heating in odd ways. 6. Setting the pressurtrol higher is a cover up for improper venting. Keep this in mind, that is a pressure safety limit, not an operating control. The pressure of the system is a function of the boiler size, to system size, and the venting capacity. The pressure is back pressure, it isn't made at the boiler, it's the air in the system pushing against the flow of steam, higher pressure, slower steam, uneven heating. Setting it higher is never ever the solution for anything. It will make differences, but it's not a proper fix. If it was set higher for years, then it was wrong for years. BTW setting it higher will use more fuel to do the same job that could be accomplished at lower pressure with proper venting. A thermostat is an on off switch, that's it. It won't make uneven heating, but it can bring to light existing problems you have had with the system for years, that, as you indicate, you think you didn't have. I would suggest you've actually had problems for years, that when all put together gave you some reasonable heat. Now that one little thing has changed, a bunch of other problems have come to light, that were there the whole time. Don't do anything with the thermostat. Get main venting sorted out. Turn all the varivalves way down, including the second floor. With proper main venting you shouldn't need all that speed. Verify you don't have any leaks in the system.
    in other words you are saying the issues have possibly been here forever, but have been hidden? they've been unnoticed?
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 4,915
    edited October 2022
    Interesting.... you say the problem started around the same time the new thermostat was installed... Hmm.

    Maybe that is the last place you should look!

    because finding anything like finding the the solution to this problem is always in the last place you look. LOL

    Just a dumb question... in the Installer Setup Menu... is option 5 set to #1?

    If no, then set it on #1
    If yes then try #2.

    So change all the vents, repipe for at least 1 main vent, maybe even replace all the controls on the boiler. Safety limits, Low Water Cut Off, vent damper if it has one, you might even consider a complete new boiler. But after all that money is spent and time wasted on unsuccessful repairs, then it is time to look at the last thing! ...and that is free

    I hope this bit of sarcasm was entertaining and helpful

    Mr. Ed
    Edward Young Retired HVAC Contractor & HYDRONICIAN Services first oil burner at age 16 P/T trainer for EH-CC.org
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,421
    Maybe we should all require restore points, like computer updates... so when something goes wrong we can go back to the last working condition? Like, in this case, reinstall the old thermostat and see if the problem goes away?
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    EdTheHeaterMan
  • Fmassarotto_9
    Fmassarotto_9 Member Posts: 94
    Maybe we should all require restore points, like computer updates... so when something goes wrong we can go back to the last working condition? Like, in this case, reinstall the old thermostat and see if the problem goes away?

    good plan, will give it a try

  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 10,278
    edited October 2022
    In the pressure control, is the pendulum arrow hanging above the lower mark indicating that it is plumb?

    Is you turn the settings too low the linkage will disengage and not restart the boiler, I think you mentioned that happens.

    The gauge should be protected by a pigtail. The original was "internal syphon protected" and was not on the pigtail.

    Is the opening into the boiler clear for the pigtail connection?

    Maybe we should look at the big picture of your complete boiler piping from floor to ceiling.

    Stand back far enough so all the piping is shown....several angles please.

    If your wet returns are somewhat plugged (after some years) water could be backing up in the main giving you wet steam.

    PS: you are asking for 2 PSI or less of operation.
    A 0-30 gauge is almost useless for reference.

    You need a 0-5 PSI also (above pigtail) ....the 0-30 is code required and must remain on the boiler (above a pigtail BTW).
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,352
    I think you all are missing that the thermostat isn’t the only change.  They stated the pressure used to be higher set also.  We all know what happens to a system with improper venting and too high pressure, and then the pressure is lowered.  This has been discussed at great length on this forum and in Dan’s books.

    Ignoring that detail is a huge mistake in proper diagnosis IMHO.

    The OP has made multiple posts on this system and reading them all will give the full story on this.  I stand with my assessment, the thermostat is a red herring.

    To the OP, yes I’m saying you’ve had issues of some kind for 16 years that are now coming to light, and now you have the opportunity to do proper fixes.  To reiterate, without main venting you’ve been burning excess fuel to heat your home that entire time.  The amount most likely would have paid for main vents several times over.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • Fmassarotto_9
    Fmassarotto_9 Member Posts: 94
    KC_Jones said:
    I think you all are missing that the thermostat isn’t the only change.  They stated the pressure used to be higher set also.  We all know what happens to a system with improper venting and too high pressure, and then the pressure is lowered.  This has been discussed at great length on this forum and in Dan’s books.

    Ignoring that detail is a huge mistake in proper diagnosis IMHO.

    The OP has made multiple posts on this system and reading them all will give the full story on this.  I stand with my assessment, the thermostat is a red herring.

    To the OP, yes I’m saying you’ve had issues of some kind for 16 years that are now coming to light, and now you have the opportunity to do proper fixes.  To reiterate, without main venting you’ve been burning excess fuel to heat your home that entire time.  The amount most likely would have paid for main vents several times over.

    I get what you are saying, but i find it incredibly hard to believe there have been issues. Simply because as i mentioned earlier the previous owner of this house was a big steam guy, he installed the boiler before he sold the house. He's done yearly inspections on it up until his passing in 2017 from heart attack. He never had main vents and when i moved in he gave me a packet of papers with all the information. on the paper i have in front of me it has the boiler model number, the year of manufacture (2005) the new radiator vents he installed and piping. I have photographs that also show straight piping with absolutely 0 vents. So i find it hard to imagine that the main vents are the cause. Another reason i'm struggling to believe it is because the 2nd floor rads use to heat up the rooms a lot, sometimes to hot. This all
    changed following the thermostat change. It very well could be the issues were there and now they are coming to light but i just find it hard to think that

  • Fmassarotto_9
    Fmassarotto_9 Member Posts: 94
    JUGHNE said:
    In the pressure control, is the pendulum arrow hanging above the lower mark indicating that it is plumb? Is you turn the settings too low the linkage will disengage and not restart the boiler, I think you mentioned that happens. The gauge should be protected by a pigtail. The original was "internal syphon protected" and was not on the pigtail. Is the opening into the boiler clear for the pigtail connection? Maybe we should look at the big picture of your complete boiler piping from floor to ceiling. Stand back far enough so all the piping is shown....several angles please. If your wet returns are somewhat plugged (after some years) water could be backing up in the main giving you wet steam. PS: you are asking for 2 PSI or less of operation. A 0-30 gauge is almost useless for reference. You need a 0-5 PSI also (above pigtail) ....the 0-30 is code required and must remain on the boiler (above a pigtail BTW).