No heat on second floor

Fmassarotto_9

Hi
if you remember my last thread regarding the the spitting and gurgling air vents, that issue is solved, no more problems with that. But now i have no heat coming to the second floor. Vari Valves are on, fully open. the inlet valves are fully open. the two bedrooms which are on the top floor are like ice boxes. i'm not sure if this has to do with the reorientation of the pigtail, it use ti be with the loop on the side and you were able to see head on. now it's orientated that head on you see the loop. I also cleaned out the pig tail piping on the side of the boiler, which now causes the boiler to run way less then before. 

Could this be a pressure issue and the pressure isn't high enough to push the steam to the higher rooms or a venting issue?

The vents on the first floor are vari valves as well and they are mostly, if not closed 

Hap_Hazzard

About how long does your boiler stay on when heating, how long is it off between cycles, and what is your current outdoor temperature?

Is your basement unusually warm?

What kind of thermostat do you have, and have you changed its settings recently?

Fmassarotto_9

Hap_Hazzard said:

About how long does your boiler stay on when heating, how long is it off between cycles, and what is your current outdoor temperature? Is your basement unusually warm? What kind of thermostat do you have, and have you changed its settings recently?

lately it would run 15 to 20 minutes. it would go off and come back on 3-5 x a hour currently outside it 24 degrees F the thermostat is a 

Honeywell Home RTH6450D1009

it's setting were changes in october 

Hap_Hazzard

It sounds like it's cycling to fast to heat the upstairs radiators. It's probably shutting down just as the steam gets to them. If you still have the owner's manual for the thermostat, go through the steup procedure on pp 9 & 10. Make sure it's set for "heat only, gas/oil steam or gravity system."

Jamie Hall

And no, it's not a pressure issue.

neilc

set all the first floor venting to closed, tight,
or closed enough that heat just barely gets in,

what do you have for main venting in the basement?
link to that other thread?

Fmassarotto_9

neilc said:

set all the first floor venting to closed, tight, or closed enough that heat just barely gets in, what do you have for main venting in the basement? link to that other thread? 

no main venting at all

neilc

Fmassarotto_9 said:

no main venting at all

well?
you need some,

is there any capped tees at the end of your main(s) ?
or back at the boiler?
pictures?

and or post picture of upstairs rads,
maybe a way to vent the risers or speed vent at rad,

mattmia2

Jamie Hall said:

And no, it's not a pressure issue.

But higher pressure could be masking another issue like air unable to get out or trapped water somewhere.

Fmassarotto_9

neilc said:

no main venting at all

well? you need some, is there any capped tees at the end of your main(s) ? or back at the boiler? pictures? and or post picture of upstairs rads, maybe a way to vent the risers or speed vent at rad,

attached is the link from previous thread, pictures are attached 

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1692345#Comment_1692345

mattmia2

Oh, this is the one where we couldn't find a main vent. Unless there is one where we can't find it and it is working and large enough, that is still your problem.

Hap_Hazzard

I still think the immediate problem is the cycle length. 15–20 minutes isn't long enough to get steam upstairs even with adequate main venting. Make sure the thermostat is set up right, then add some main vents as soon as possible.

mattmia2

Hap_Hazzard said:

I still think the immediate problem is the cycle length. 15–20 minutes isn't long enough to get steam upstairs even with adequate main venting. Make sure the thermostat is set up right, then add some main vents as soon as possible.

it is probably both.

EBEBRATT-Ed

The OP says the boiler is running lees now and the two rooms are not heating. Can't have everything

neilc

speed vents, valve side, on the rads,
or riser venting,
post an upstairs rad

Fmassarotto_9

neilc said:

speed vents, valve side, on the rads, or riser venting, post an upstairs rad

vari valve fully open, vent in this pic is on the left. vent in the other room is on the right. 
the picture where it is half is a room that was an add on back in 1990 by the original owners, it's has 12 inches on each side and aboit 10 in the wall. but the rooms were warm up until thursday night. the other room where it is full was also warm until a week ago. i can't get a better picture of the radiator because the covering is nailed to the walls and i dont wnana do more damage 

Fmassarotto_9

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

The OP says the boiler is running lees now and the two rooms are not heating. Can't have everything 

last week i cleaned the sight class, petcock, pigtail, the 90 degree elbow where the pressure gauge connects, i changed the  pressure gauge and on a new one and i blew out the pigtail a few times by adding water and kissing and blowing, i also checked for clogs by using the sight glass protector rods. the piping on the side of the pig tail "the elbow, small 1/4 pipe" were clogged, then i reoriented the pig tail because i read and was told for a mercury pressuretrol the pig tail should be oriented with the loop striaght not to the side. since then the boiler doesn't run long at all, it runs 15 minutes less then before 

Fmassarotto_9

Hap_Hazzard said:

I still think the immediate problem is the cycle length. 15–20 minutes isn't long enough to get steam upstairs even with adequate main venting. Make sure the thermostat is set up right, then add some main vents as soon as possible.

this is how it's set

pecmsg

Are the vents working at all?

Fmassarotto_9

pecmsg said:

Are the vents working at all?

yes the upstairs vent they make a noise for 20 seconds and they shut but the rads barely get hot, by the time the lower portion by the inlet valve gets hot the thermostat shuts off 

Fmassarotto_9

mattmia2 said:

Oh, this is the one where we couldn't find a main vent. Unless there is one where we can't find it and it is working and large enough, that is still your problem.

i dint think it's a main vent issue, it could be and i'm not denying it but these rooms were warm up until last week. this all started after i cleaned the pig tail and replaced that piping on the side that connects to the pigtail and pressure gauge. there's a new pressure gauage, new 90 degree elbow new 1/4 pipe it's all new. everything in this pic is brand spanking new, the old piping was clogged and i tried boiling them but it was rock solid what. ever since replacing these parts the boiler runs for way less as mentioned. the vents that were originally spitting water no longer spit. so that issue that you were helping me with a week ago is solved. it could still be a main vent issue but i find it hard to believe since this is a new problem. since i've lived here since 2007 i never had this issue. and this is the first time these pipes on the pressuretrol have been touched since 2014

pecmsg

Fmassarotto_9 said:

mattmia2 said:

Oh, this is the one where we couldn't find a main vent. Unless there is one where we can't find it and it is working and large enough, that is still your problem.

i dint think it's a main vent issue, it could be and i'm not denying it but these rooms were warm up until last week. this all started after i cleaned the pig tail and replaced that piping on the side that connects to the pigtail and pressure gauge. there's a new pressure gauage, new 90 degree elbow new 1/4 pipe it's all new. everything in this pic is brand spanking new, the old piping was clogged and i tried boiling them but it was rock solid what. ever since replacing these parts the boiler runs for way less as mentioned. the vents that were originally spitting water no longer spit. so that issue that you were helping me with a week ago is solved. it could still be a main vent issue but i find it hard to believe since this is a new problem. since i've lived here since 2007 i never had this issue. and this is the first time these pipes on the pressuretrol have been touched since 2014

Why is the gauge not connected to the pigtail?

Fmassarotto_9

pecmsg said:

Fmassarotto_9 said:

mattmia2 said:

Oh, this is the one where we couldn't find a main vent. Unless there is one where we can't find it and it is working and large enough, that is still your problem.

i dint think it's a main vent issue, it could be and i'm not denying it but these rooms were warm up until last week. this all started after i cleaned the pig tail and replaced that piping on the side that connects to the pigtail and pressure gauge. there's a new pressure gauage, new 90 degree elbow new 1/4 pipe it's all new. everything in this pic is brand spanking new, the old piping was clogged and i tried boiling them but it was rock solid what. ever since replacing these parts the boiler runs for way less as mentioned. the vents that were originally spitting water no longer spit. so that issue that you were helping me with a week ago is solved. it could still be a main vent issue but i find it hard to believe since this is a new problem. since i've lived here since 2007 i never had this issue. and this is the first time these pipes on the pressuretrol have been touched since 2014

Why is the gauge not connected to the pigtail? 

this is the set up, i just replaced the piping and connected everything how it was and how it always was. 

Hap_Hazzard

Fmassarotto_9 said:

this is how it's set

So far, so good, but you need to go into the advanced settings and set it for "steam or gravity system." If you don't have the manual, see http://homeappliance.manualsonline.com/manuals/mfg/honeywell/rth6450d1009e1.html?p=9

This thermostat looks way too complicated for a steam system, and it seems to default to a very short cycle. The best type to use with a steam system lets you specify a two-degree swing between when the heat comes on and when the thermostat is satisfied, or one that lets you specify cycles per hour. This one doesn't do either directly. You might need to call the help line at 1-800-468-1502 or, if it's not possible to increase the duration of the heating cycle, you might need a different thermostat.

Fmassarotto_9

@Hap_Hazzard

my mistake i gave you the wrong thermostat, idk how i made that mistake, this is the one i have. i don't see a setting for gravity or steam 

Honeywell TH4110D1007 - Digital Thermostat Manuals

Hap_Hazzard

Fmassarotto_9 said:

@Hap_Hazzard

my mistake i gave you the wrong thermostat, idk how i made that mistake, this is the one i have. i don't see a setting for gravity or steam 

Honeywell TH4110D1007 - Digital Thermostat Manuals

You can find the setup instructions on page 6 here: https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/Pro4000Install.pdf

They're not in the user manual, because why would a user want to set up their thermostat? 🙄

According to the manual, the default settings assume you have a furnace and sets the cycle rate to 5 cycles per hour. That's way to high. For steam you want 1 cycle per hour. This is setup option 5 on page 6. Either no one set this up correctly when it was new, or the settings went back to the defaults last time the batteries died. You need to re-set everything every time you change the batteries.

Again, this is a lot more complicated than you need for a steam system. You don't have air conditioning or a heat pump; you don't have a fan, and you don't need to program anything. Setting it to lower the temperature at night doesn't really save much if any money—certainly not enough to pay for the fancy thermostat or the time you waste fiddling with it.

Maybe I'm biased, but I used to have a thermostat like this. It was installed by my house's previous owner. I put up with it for years before getting fed up and replacing it with the old reliable round Honeywell mercury switch thermostat. No buttons to push; no batteries to replace. Just turn it up or down and then ignore it.

Fmassarotto_9

Hap_Hazzard said:

@Hap_Hazzard

my mistake i gave you the wrong thermostat, idk how i made that mistake, this is the one i have. i don't see a setting for gravity or steam 

Honeywell TH4110D1007 - Digital Thermostat Manuals

You can find the setup instructions on page 6 here: https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/Pro4000Install.pdf They're not in the user manual, because why would a user want to set up their thermostat? 🙄 According to the manual, the default settings assume you have a furnace and sets the cycle rate to 5 cycles per hour. That's way to high. For steam you want 1 cycle per hour. This is setup option 5 on page 6. Either no one set this up correctly when it was new, or the settings went back to the defaults last time the batteries died. You need to re-set everything every time you change the batteries. Again, this is a lot more complicated than you need for a steam system. You don't have air conditioning or a heat pump; you don't have a fan, and you don't need to program anything. Setting it to lower the temperature at night doesn't really save much if any money—certainly not enough to pay for the fancy thermostat or the time you waste fiddling with it. Maybe I'm biased, but I used to have a thermostat like this. It was installed by my house's previous owner. I put up with it for years before getting fed up and replacing it with the old reliable round Honeywell mercury switch thermostat. No buttons to push; no batteries to replace. Just turn it up or down and then ignore it.

i took pictures of every set up, i think it's right can you just double check for me with the link you showed so two people are sure. i appreciate it

Hap_Hazzard

Fmassarotto_9 said:

i took pictures of every set up, i think it's right can you just double check for me with the link you showed so two people are sure. i appreciate it

These are correct:
1: 0
5: 1
14: 0
The rest are irrelevant.
Are your upstairs radiators heating now?

Fmassarotto_9

Hap_Hazzard said:

i took pictures of every set up, i think it's right can you just double check for me with the link you showed so two people are sure. i appreciate it

These are correct: 1: 0 5: 1 14: 0 The rest are irrelevant. Are your upstairs radiators heating now?

warmer then it was no doubt 

Hap_Hazzard

Now get after those main vents. You'll see a big improvement.

AdmiralYoda

And it might not be a bad idea to install some new vents in the radiators too. I like Maid O' Mist valves. They are cheap and good enough quality and have orifices that you can change out for more or less venting.

Main venting is very important, and sometimes it is worth venting risers to the second floor if they are long enough.

Fmassarotto_9

Hap_Hazzard said:

Now get after those main vents. You'll see a big improvement.

will do, quick  question, is a glycerin filled pressure gauge ok for boilers, that what i installed and some say it's bad and hazardous some say it's great. i wont to make sure 

Fmassarotto_9

AdmiralYoda said:

And it might not be a bad idea to install some new vents in the radiators too. I like Maid O' Mist valves. They are cheap and good enough quality and have orifices that you can change out for more or less venting. Main venting is very important, and sometimes it is worth venting risers to the second floor if they are long enough.

i tried those, i got 6 and they all filled with water, never shut and kicked out steam causing my walls to turn damp and causes other damages. i went to the varivalve and never had issues since. gorton, maid o mist had it rough this go around i spent lots of money on them to no avail 

Hap_Hazzard

Fmassarotto_9 said:

is a glycerin filled pressure gauge ok for boilers, that what i installed and some say it's bad and hazardous some say it's great.

I don't know what would be hazardous about it. It would probably be better damped, but I've never used one, so you have more experience than I do. How do you like yours?

Fmassarotto_9

Hap_Hazzard said:

is a glycerin filled pressure gauge ok for boilers, that what i installed and some say it's bad and hazardous some say it's great.

I don't know what would be hazardous about it. It would probably be better damped, but I've never used one, so you have more experience than I do. How do you like yours?

i just installed mine a day ago, it seems ok but apparently some say the oil can pose a fire hazard 

Hap_Hazzard

Fmassarotto_9 said:

apparently some say the oil can pose a fire hazard

Well, technically it is flammable, but so are the stickers they put on boilers. The flashpoint of glycerin is 390° F, so it's not the most volatile organic compound you might have lying around. Somewhere in your boiler's installation manual, they should have a list of products you're not supposed to store in your boiler room. I'm pretty sure glycerine isn't on that list.

Jamie Hall

And furthermore, that flashpoint (which is not the auotignition temperature -- that's much higher) is above any exposed material around your boiler, except possibly the breeching immediately next to the boiler.

And there's very little glycerine in the gauge anyway. So supposing you get a leak in the gauge, and the pressure is off the charts so that you get a spray rather than a drip, and the casing of the gauge is ruptured so that the spray can get around back to the breeching... you'll still get at most a brief poof.

There are other things to worry about...

Hap_Hazzard

Thanks, Jamie. Maybe I should have included the definition of flashpoint, but we're all smart people here, so I assume we all know. Good to point out, though, that because it's such a small amount, even at the flashpoint, the vapor pressure still probably wouldn't be enough to combust, and it wouldn't amount to a popcorn fart even if it did.

I'm looking forward to hearing how it performs. We've often talked about the problem of fluctuation affecting both readability and longevity. Maybe a glycerine filled gauge is an answer to that.