I'm all for LED's but really?

ChrisJ

In 2012 I installed a Panasonic bath fan with a CFL light, actually I'm not sure if that counts as a CFL, it's a special 4 pin setup, but I've had no complaints with it. The fan is super quiet, works great, the light is bright etc.

HOWEVER, In 2019 I installed a newer Panasonic fan in our main bathroom and it has an LED light and night light. The main light failed yesterday so I looked into replacing it.

$140......... for a fan I paid $130 for.
The LED has a 5 year warranty but I'm currently trying to work that out with Panasonic and my hopes aren't very high because I did my own work.

I'm not sure what I'm goin to do if they won't cover it under warranty, or, for that matter if it fails again in a few years. Which I'm sure it will. It just seems silly.......

Something isn't great with this setup. A $140 LED isn't saving me enough money and it's performance isn't good enough to justify it's existence in this form.


Has anyone else run into this ridiculousness?

ethicalpaul

I have what appears to be a custom LED light in my new ceiling fan which I don't care for (which I assume is similar to your fan situation). If it fails similarly I will probably try to replace it with a home-brewed one using standard LED boards or something.

ChrisJ

ethicalpaul said:

I have what appears to be a custom LED light in my new ceiling fan which I don't care for (which I assume is similar to your fan situation). If it fails similarly I will probably try to replace it with a home-brewed one using standard LED boards or something.

That's what I'm thinking.
I guess my only concern is fire safety in that regard. It does appear to be a 120VAC powered light.

DJD775

This can't be right? I thought LED lights were supposed to last 20 years?

mattmia2

DJD775 said:

This can't be right? I thought LED lights were supposed to last 20 years?

They do. The power supply that they saved 5 cents on doesn't.

You could probably repair the power supply, look for smd electrolytics, probably were improperly constructed devices or were not specified correctly for the actual voltages and temps. I have seen the cases themselves fail in some Cree LEDs where the filters lost their bond to the device.

ethicalpaul

They also overdrive LEDs for the brightness (and possibly to purposely limit their lifetime)

Look for the "Big Clive" youtube channel where he reverse-engineers LED circuits to show how many watts they are pushing through them and he talks about special low power lights that one middle eastern country mandated to get their actual life out of them.

Jamie Hall

Oh yes. 20 years? I find that LEDs except the little ones as indicators ;don't last more than a few years. I suspect it is, as @mattmia2 said, the power supplies (which often run astonishingly hot), but whatever it is they may save energy, but they are no bargain. We have LEDs almost everywhere now (gave up on CFLs pretty darned fast, particularly outdoors and in the barns) but are resigned to replacing them at least as often, if not more often, than the incandescents they replaced.

mattmia2

I just looked at some middle atlantic rack fans where we are having all of them make a squealing noise. Turns out they just straight up screwed up the engineering with designing a fan to be driven by dc only and using a pwm controller to control it.

mattmia2

You kind of get what you pay for too. I have some ones from Phillips and Cree that have lasted a lot longer than an incandescent but I also have had house branded and lamps from brands that no longer manufacture anything that have failed very quickly.

ChrisJ

mattmia2 said:

You kind of get what you pay for too. I have some ones from Phillips and Cree that have lasted a lot longer than an incandescent but I also have had house branded and lamps from brands that no longer manufacture anything that have failed very quickly.

The exact behavior it's doing right now is strange to me.
If it sits off, it'll turn on full brightness and after awhile go dim, not out, just dim and steady. If I flick it with my finger it goes back to normal brightness.

Bad solder joint? The dim part is what confuses me, that doesn't sound like a bad solder joint.

The night light appears to light up a totally different spot, like a small LED off to the side, so it's not related to that in any way.

mattmia2

Sounds like solder joints. They may be in series/parallel combinations to match the junction voltage to the supply voltage. Could be losing half a wave of the rectification too. I had a light like that, open it up, reflow some solder joints that didn't really look like they were bad, it would seem better for a while. I eventually just replaced the fixture. It also sort of looked like the LEDs got to around the melting point of the solder too.

The Steam Whisperer

mattmia2 said:

You kind of get what you pay for too. I have some ones from Phillips and Cree that have lasted a lot longer than an incandescent but I also have had house branded and lamps from brands that no longer manufacture anything that have failed very quickly.

Yep, this is the pattern I've seen. When they where newer in the U.S. market I stuck with the more expensive Phillips LED and got good life... just like the Phillips CFL's vs the Menards no namers. I had Phillips CFLS last more that 10 years... we actually moved them from our old home to our new home. Now that the U.S. market is finally catching up some, it seems that good life is more the norm. Out of the thousand or so LED's I've installed ( I've relamped nearly my whole church facility) I only installed a couple fixtures that have built in LED's. You sacrifice some light output in older fixtures, but having a standard screw in base or bi pin connection allows easy replacement of the LED. So far I've not had a single failure in the church, including the exit sign lights that have been lit nearly continuously for 4 years and a street sign back light that is lit sundown to sun up for 2 to 3 years ( we were burning out flourescents about every year). I've had a couple of bulbs fail at home that were rated for open enclosures only, but were in an enclosed fixture. Now that enclosed fixture rated bulbs are in there, no more failures.

These lighting upgrades, along with replacing a circulator with a more efficient model and adding a relay, have reduced the church's base electrical usage over 60%. We increased electrical draw with new power burner boilers, but still saw this huge decrease. Last month's electric bill for the 17,000 sq ft facility was only $135.00. Payback time on most of the lighting upgrades was from a couple months to a couple years....so most of the improvements have already been paid for. I just replaced the big HPS parking lot lights with brighter LED's and saw an immediate reduction in usage (Chicago has a smart grid so I can monitor electrical usage in the facility on an hour by hour basis).

These upgrades, along with some conventional technology HVAC upgrades and air tightening and insulating, have allowed the congregation to no longer be dependent on cheap energy for survival.

Hot_water_fan

The Cree's I first installed about a decade ago are going strong! Have saved about $120/bulb. Can any investment top that? About 75% annual rate of return.

hot_rod

I write the date on the bulb when I install them10 years seems to be average with a name brand bulb. I,be used them in can lights, outdoor floods and table lamps 

New vehicles seem to be all LED now.

Larry Weingarten

Hi, I'll add that LEDs with the energy star rating seem to hold up much better.

Yours, Larry

Hot_water_fan

I write the date on the bulb when I install them10 years seems to be average with a name brand bulb. I,be used them in can lights, outdoor floods and table lamps

@hot_rod Ha! I did the same and kept the receipts. The novelty has worn off and now I just put them in.

JUGHNE

We had a new fire hall built several years ago.
I was involved in the designing of electrical, plumbing and HVAC.

I suggested all interior lighting to be T-8 lamps, (old school by today's standard), we might go into the building for 1-2 hours per week.
The added cost for LED, at the time, did not seem to be justified.

Also the high bay fixtures are about 20' off the floor and guess who would be expected to do fixture maintenance.

However outside wall packs were spec to be LED.
A brand and model was chosen which had proved itself reliable.

The old hall had HPS packs which proved to be a constant PITA.

But within one month most of the new LED wall packs went thru various stages of failure.
They were all replaced under warranty....the complete wall pack.

Even though they were Lithonia brand, apparently they had a bad batch of fixtures.

And so far not a single T-8 fluorescent lamp has failed.

ChrisJ

If you get what you pay for this $144 replacement Panasonic LED should outlast any LED in existence.



https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/product/~product_id=FV-0510VSL1#replacement-parts-container

$152 fan with a $144 light.

ratio

We went from fixtures with cheap, inefficient, replaceable lampies to fixtures with somewhat-efficient, non -replaceable lampies. I'm sure that someone's the winner in this deal, I just don't feel like it's me.

NB: I do like, & use, LEDs.

PC7060

I think @ChrisJ could start a thread on toilet paper and get 50 responses!

The Steam Whisperer

ChrisJ said:

If you get what you pay for this $144 replacement Panasonic LED should outlast any LED in existence.



https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/product/~product_id=FV-0510VSL1#replacement-parts-container

$152 fan with a $144 light.

I hate to say it, but even 30 years ago when I was renovating our previous home, a $150.00 bath fan was still not a high grade fan. Lots of flash, but not a solid long life design... chosen exactly for the typical U. S. consumer mentality of cheaper is better.

JakeCK

My bathroom didn't even have an exhaust fan when I bought the house. :P

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

My bathroom didn't even have an exhaust fan when I bought the house. :P

Neither did mine.

Now both bathrooms have them.

ChrisJ

The Steam Whisperer said:

If you get what you pay for this $144 replacement Panasonic LED should outlast any LED in existence. https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/product/~product_id=FV-0510VSL1#replacement-parts-container $152 fan with a $144 light.

I hate to say it, but even 30 years ago when I was renovating our previous home, a $150.00 bath fan was still not a high grade fan. Lots of flash, but not a solid long life design... chosen exactly for the typical U. S. consumer mentality of cheaper is better.

As far as I know these Panasonic fans are considered fairly decent.  But you're right $150 isn't expensive for a fan.

However I was commenting on the LED price not the fan price. 

Solid_Fuel_Man

I'd say Panasonic will come good for it. They better, I've had excellent experience with all of their products. 

Refrigerator lights are the same thing @ChrisJ factory installed LED for that almighty energy star rating....and then the chiniesum driver fails and you are stuck replacing the whole light module for $100 or more. I can't remember if I've ever replaced any of the incandescent lights in my fridge from 1996.... very little run time. 

I've lucked out on replacing the LED modules on a customer's fridge when I found out they just send 120v to it. Cobbled in a standard socket and they screwed in whatever bulb they wanted. Just the way it should be. 

mattmia2

It seems like around the 15 year mark I have found myself looking for an appliance lamp...

ChrisJ

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

I'd say Panasonic will come good for it. They better, I've had excellent experience with all of their products. 

Refrigerator lights are the same thing @ChrisJ factory installed LED for that almighty energy star rating....and then the chiniesum driver fails and you are stuck replacing the whole light module for $100 or more. I can't remember if I've ever replaced any of the incandescent lights in my fridge from 1996.... very little run time. 

I've lucked out on replacing the LED modules on a customer's fridge when I found out they just send 120v to it. Cobbled in a standard socket and they screwed in whatever bulb they wanted. Just the way it should be. 

My fridge has a 15W incandescent.  I just couldn't make my self put an LED there.  

I think I bought 6 or 12 of them so id never run out.  It's a smaller style Edison base bulb.

ChrisJ

@Erin Holohan Haskell Am I seeing things or is the thank button a thumbs down now?

JakeCK

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

I'd say Panasonic will come good for it. They better, I've had excellent experience with all of their products. 

Refrigerator lights are the same thing @ChrisJ factory installed LED for that almighty energy star rating....and then the chiniesum driver fails and you are stuck replacing the whole light module for $100 or more. I can't remember if I've ever replaced any of the incandescent lights in my fridge from 1996.... very little run time. 

I've lucked out on replacing the LED modules on a customer's fridge when I found out they just send 120v to it. Cobbled in a standard socket and they screwed in whatever bulb they wanted. Just the way it should be. 

That's what I don't get, why did they have to change the design of the fridge lighting to have LEDs. A standard socket works just fine with an LED bulb in it.

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

I'd say Panasonic will come good for it. They better, I've had excellent experience with all of their products. 

Refrigerator lights are the same thing @ChrisJ factory installed LED for that almighty energy star rating....and then the chiniesum driver fails and you are stuck replacing the whole light module for $100 or more. I can't remember if I've ever replaced any of the incandescent lights in my fridge from 1996.... very little run time. 

I've lucked out on replacing the LED modules on a customer's fridge when I found out they just send 120v to it. Cobbled in a standard socket and they screwed in whatever bulb they wanted. Just the way it should be. 

That's what I don't get, why did they have to change the design of the fridge lighting to have LEDs. A standard socket works just fine with an LED bulb in it.

Cosmetics.  The socket both costs money and may even need to be required to work with an incandescent because someone may install one.  That's where those funky twist pin CFLs came from, they could make the entire fixture much cheaper because you couldn't use an incandescent.

Right now I'd much rather have a bulge in this fart fan and a replaceable lamp than the low profile flat look its got.

Sal Santamaura

ChrisJ said:

If you get what you pay for this $144 replacement Panasonic LED should outlast any LED in existence.



https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/product/~product_id=FV-0510VSL1#replacement-parts-container

$152 fan with a $144 light.

Scrolling down to the bottom of that linked product page one sees a Panasonic exhaust fan with no lamp. It seems anyone doing new construction seeking a quiet fan might learn from your experience and use that one instead, then install a separate can light. Even the term "can" light is appropriate for a bathroom.

ChrisJ

Sal Santamaura said:

If you get what you pay for this $144 replacement Panasonic LED should outlast any LED in existence. https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/product/~product_id=FV-0510VSL1#replacement-parts-container $152 fan with a $144 light.

Scrolling down to the bottom of that linked product page one sees a Panasonic exhaust fan with no lamp. It seems anyone doing new construction seeking a quiet fan might learn from your experience and use that one instead, then install a separate can light. Even the term "can" light is appropriate for a bathroom.

I can't say the same thing didn't occur to me last night.   But I really do like the night light in these. But not $144 worth.

Maybe it's a fluke.  Maybe most of them out last their owners.   But somehow I wasn't surprised when it died.  Just surprised by the price.  $20-30 I could see but $8 less than a new fan? 


I'd almost welcome the classic (walk in the bathroom turn on light, incandescent bulb flashes, burns out and trips the breaker) that I always hated.   Hated that in the bathroom and the basement when I was young. 

Erin Holohan Haskell

ChrisJ said:

@Erin Holohan Haskell Am I seeing things or is the thank button a thumbs down now?

Nope. Good catch! We're working on the fix. Thanks!

mattmia2

ChrisJ said:

Cosmetics.  The socket both costs money and may even need to be required to work with an incandescent because someone may install one.  That's where those funky twist pin CFLs came from, they could make the entire fixture much cheaper because you couldn't use an incandescent.

Right now I'd much rather have a bulge in this fart fan and a replaceable lamp than the low profile flat look its got.

I think those had a ballast in the fixture so it wasn't at all a standard 120v socket.

I can see the 40w or so of heat being undesirable in the fridge depending on how long people stand wit the door open.

the problem isn't the proprietary led, the problem is the race to the bottom in price. the refrigeration system probably will leak within a decade too.

Steamhead

Years ago, before it became "cool" to do so, I got hold of a lot of cast-off traditional fluorescent fixtures and installed them at my house. Here's how I dressed up a circular one:







I never have to replace the tubes in these things as much as some of you have had to replace your LEDs!

Skyline

mattmia2 said:

ChrisJ said:

Cosmetics.  The socket both costs money and may even need to be required to work with an incandescent because someone may install one.  That's where those funky twist pin CFLs came from, they could make the entire fixture much cheaper because you couldn't use an incandescent.

Right now I'd much rather have a bulge in this fart fan and a replaceable lamp than the low profile flat look its got.

I think those had a ballast in the fixture so it wasn't at all a standard 120v socket.

I can see the 40w or so of heat being undesirable in the fridge depending on how long people stand wit the door open.

the problem isn't the proprietary led, the problem is the race to the bottom in price. the refrigeration system probably will leak within a decade too.

The chances are, that standing front of the fridge with open door(s) for longer time period will result in the ambient air temperature being more of an issue, than the 40W incandescent light bulb.

On the other hand, the incandescent light bulb in the fridge can be used as a heat source too. Most of the fridges in location with no heat, like porch, garage, etc., will not work well in the winter, especially the freezer. I learned on the hard way, when put my replaced, still working Whirlpool side-by-side fridge into the porch, mainly for bulk purchased drinks and overflow storage for the inside fridge. It was fine most of the year, except at winter time.

I rewired the light bulb circuit with an on/off switch, that resulted in the light bulb to stay on, even when the door was closed. After some experiments, adjustments like adding a 15W light bulb, the fridge works just fine with the switch turned on in the winter. This Whirlpool is 20-25 years old and still going strong.

ChrisJ

Skyline said:

mattmia2 said:

ChrisJ said:

Cosmetics.  The socket both costs money and may even need to be required to work with an incandescent because someone may install one.  That's where those funky twist pin CFLs came from, they could make the entire fixture much cheaper because you couldn't use an incandescent.

Right now I'd much rather have a bulge in this fart fan and a replaceable lamp than the low profile flat look its got.

I think those had a ballast in the fixture so it wasn't at all a standard 120v socket.

I can see the 40w or so of heat being undesirable in the fridge depending on how long people stand wit the door open.

the problem isn't the proprietary led, the problem is the race to the bottom in price. the refrigeration system probably will leak within a decade too.

The chances are, that standing front of the fridge with open door(s) for longer time period will result in the ambient air temperature being more of an issue, than the 40W incandescent light bulb.

On the other hand, the incandescent light bulb in the fridge can be used as a heat source too. Most of the fridges in location with no heat, like porch, garage, etc., will not work well in the winter, especially the freezer. I learned on the hard way, when put my replaced, still working Whirlpool side-by-side fridge into the porch, mainly for bulk purchased drinks and overflow storage for the inside fridge. It was fine most of the year, except at winter time.

I rewired the light bulb circuit with an on/off switch, that resulted in the light bulb to stay on, even when the door was closed. After some experiments, adjustments like adding a 15W light bulb, the fridge works just fine with the switch turned on in the winter. This Whirlpool is 20-25 years old and still going strong.

In the 1930s GE had a patent to tie a thermostat in with the interior light on a monitor top refrigerator to turn the bulb on to help heat the cabinet if it started dropping in temperature below a set temperature.

Skyline

ChrisJ said:

Skyline said:

mattmia2 said:

ChrisJ said:

Cosmetics.  The socket both costs money and may even need to be required to work with an incandescent because someone may install one.  That's where those funky twist pin CFLs came from, they could make the entire fixture much cheaper because you couldn't use an incandescent.

Right now I'd much rather have a bulge in this fart fan and a replaceable lamp than the low profile flat look its got.

I think those had a ballast in the fixture so it wasn't at all a standard 120v socket.

I can see the 40w or so of heat being undesirable in the fridge depending on how long people stand wit the door open.

the problem isn't the proprietary led, the problem is the race to the bottom in price. the refrigeration system probably will leak within a decade too.

The chances are, that standing front of the fridge with open door(s) for longer time period will result in the ambient air temperature being more of an issue, than the 40W incandescent light bulb.

On the other hand, the incandescent light bulb in the fridge can be used as a heat source too. Most of the fridges in location with no heat, like porch, garage, etc., will not work well in the winter, especially the freezer. I learned on the hard way, when put my replaced, still working Whirlpool side-by-side fridge into the porch, mainly for bulk purchased drinks and overflow storage for the inside fridge. It was fine most of the year, except at winter time.

I rewired the light bulb circuit with an on/off switch, that resulted in the light bulb to stay on, even when the door was closed. After some experiments, adjustments like adding a 15W light bulb, the fridge works just fine with the switch turned on in the winter. This Whirlpool is 20-25 years old and still going strong.

In the 1930s GE had a patent to tie a thermostat in with the interior light on a monitor top refrigerator to turn the bulb on to help heat the cabinet if it started dropping in temperature below a set temperature.

That explains why the GE fridge from mid-60s in the porch prior to the Whirlpool one worked just fine in the winter. I learned something new today, thanks @ChrisJ ...

ChrisJ

Skyline said:

ChrisJ said:

Skyline said:

mattmia2 said:

ChrisJ said:

Cosmetics.  The socket both costs money and may even need to be required to work with an incandescent because someone may install one.  That's where those funky twist pin CFLs came from, they could make the entire fixture much cheaper because you couldn't use an incandescent.

Right now I'd much rather have a bulge in this fart fan and a replaceable lamp than the low profile flat look its got.

I think those had a ballast in the fixture so it wasn't at all a standard 120v socket.

I can see the 40w or so of heat being undesirable in the fridge depending on how long people stand wit the door open.

the problem isn't the proprietary led, the problem is the race to the bottom in price. the refrigeration system probably will leak within a decade too.

The chances are, that standing front of the fridge with open door(s) for longer time period will result in the ambient air temperature being more of an issue, than the 40W incandescent light bulb.

On the other hand, the incandescent light bulb in the fridge can be used as a heat source too. Most of the fridges in location with no heat, like porch, garage, etc., will not work well in the winter, especially the freezer. I learned on the hard way, when put my replaced, still working Whirlpool side-by-side fridge into the porch, mainly for bulk purchased drinks and overflow storage for the inside fridge. It was fine most of the year, except at winter time.

I rewired the light bulb circuit with an on/off switch, that resulted in the light bulb to stay on, even when the door was closed. After some experiments, adjustments like adding a 15W light bulb, the fridge works just fine with the switch turned on in the winter. This Whirlpool is 20-25 years old and still going strong.

In the 1930s GE had a patent to tie a thermostat in with the interior light on a monitor top refrigerator to turn the bulb on to help heat the cabinet if it started dropping in temperature below a set temperature.

That explains why the GE fridge from mid-60s in the porch prior to the Whirlpool one worked just fine in the winter. I learned something new today, thanks @ChrisJ ...

I don't know if they ever actually implemented that feature into anything.
I just know it was an idea they had.



https://patents.google.com/patent/US2152486A/en?oq=2152486


Snips from it.

Skyline

ChrisJ said:

In the 1930s GE had a patent to tie a thermostat in with the interior light on a monitor top refrigerator to turn the bulb on to help heat the cabinet if it started dropping in temperature below a set temperature.

That, or something similar had to be in my old GE fridge, that even in the cold winter month kept it working like it's in the summer month.

Thanks for the link...

kflory

ChrisJ said:

Sal Santamaura said:

If you get what you pay for this $144 replacement Panasonic LED should outlast any LED in existence. https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/product/~product_id=FV-0510VSL1#replacement-parts-container $152 fan with a $144 light.

Scrolling down to the bottom of that linked product page one sees a Panasonic exhaust fan with no lamp. It seems anyone doing new construction seeking a quiet fan might learn from your experience and use that one instead, then install a separate can light. Even the term "can" light is appropriate for a bathroom.

I can't say the same thing didn't occur to me last night.   But I really do like the night light in these. But not $144 worth.

Maybe it's a fluke.  Maybe most of them out last their owners.   But somehow I wasn't surprised when it died.  Just surprised by the price.  $20-30 I could see but $8 less than a new fan? 


I'd almost welcome the classic (walk in the bathroom turn on light, incandescent bulb flashes, burns out and trips the breaker) that I always hated.   Hated that in the bathroom and the basement when I was young. 

I have replaced some GFCI outlets in my kitchen with GFCIs that have a built-in nightlight, that might be a relatively inexpensive way to add a nightlight to your bathroom and use a different exhaust fan.