I Think I Have A Problem.

ChrisJ

An insulated liner would be best if it fits no?

JakeCK

Charlie from wmass said:

are able to maintain temperature due to their higher velocity through the chimney liner without the mix in of excessive envelope air that is cooling down the flue gases.

That's a good explanation. 

I still believe control over the combustion air in the boiler needs to be directly achieved. A liner doesn't ensure that. How much air moves through even a smaller flue will be influenced by things temperature differences, wind. What happens when there is a 30mph wind when it's 5f outside? Will that liner still be able to control the boiler?

WMno57

Internal Combustion is not DIY. You guys should seek assistance from your local speed shop.

There may be a car analogy here. Years ago single exhaust would last longer than dual exhaust. A single muffler and tailpipe would get hotter, sooner and not rot as quickly. Most cars today have stainless exhaust.

ChrisJ

@WMno57 catalytic converters and the removal of leaded fuel greatly extended the life of exhaust systems.

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

Charlie from wmass said:

are able to maintain temperature due to their higher velocity through the chimney liner without the mix in of excessive envelope air that is cooling down the flue gases.

That's a good explanation. 

I still believe control over the combustion air in the boiler needs to be directly achieved. A liner doesn't ensure that. How much air moves through even a smaller flue will be influenced by things temperature differences, wind. What happens when there is a 30mph wind when it's 5f outside? Will that liner still be able to control the boiler?

I'm far from an expert, I'm sure you know that.

But my understanding of a drafthood is it literally disconnects the boiler from the flue.  So the boiler burns as if there's no chimney or vent even connected.  The drafthood in that way makes it so draft changes and even downdrafts do not effect the burner.  

It's like putting a kitchen exhaust hood near the boiler to capture the fumes but I'm no way encourage or effect flow through the boiler.

Some claim this isn't how they actually behave in real life.   I don't know if it's true or not. 

Mine behaves as claimed by the manufacturer best I can tell.

JakeCK

Maybe that is the correct path forward. Hopefully tomorrow we'll find out. Remember I am not doing the work my self.

So far I have only paid half the costs to resolve the venting problem. At the end of the day I'm paying to fix the problem whatever the solution maybe. If it turns out the barometric cannot be made to work, the balance won't be paid until a solution that will work is completed. 

Basically I won't pay the balance until it is burning and venting correctly. I hope the barometric is the solution, but you know what they say about hoping. Or is it wishing? Lol

captainco

Jake you seem to have a better understanding of equipment operation than some of these responses. I will be talking to the service tech when he is there and to his boss.

Forget combustion and just look at certain scientific laws. "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" The draft in the flue changes, something in the room will change.

I am sure every chart I have read, whether it is airflow, water flow, electrical flow will show that the larger the pipe, the wire etc., the better the flow the more the flow. Flues are not heat exchangers and are not meant to be heated. It is the air inside that needs to be hot so that it can be displaced by cold air. Why does a 30' tall flue have more draft than a 10' tall flue. Not because the flue is hotter, but because there is more cold air displacing the hot air. Not in40+ years and tens of thousands of installations, I have never found a flue that was to big, only to small.

We are the only industry that has the ability to train inanimate objects to behave. Put a hole in the wall and tell it to bring in air and it does. Tell it to take air out and it does. Run a pipe through the roof and you tell it to take air out or bring air in.

Equipment doesn't behave, it must be controlled. Equipment has no idea or mechanical means to control combustion air to the burners. Draft controls combustion air and venting. Equipment that is not connected to a flue, just a hole near by, is playing Russian Roulette. This opens up the operation of equipment to be communicating with indoor pressures and activities.

REPORT NO. FT-C-07-93
ON PERFORMANCE OF DRAFTHOOD EQUIPPED
GAS APPLIANCES MODIFIED BY THE
ADDITION OF BAROMETRIC DAMPERS

A.G.A. LABORATORIES
FIELD TEST PROGRAM

PREPARED FOR
THE FIELD CONTROLS COMPANY



CONCLUSION

Testing herein described indicates a trend toward improved gas appliance
combustion efficiency and reduction in carbon monoxide emissions when original equipment draft hoods were replaced by double acting barometric
dampers. Indications are that use of barometric dampers for gas appliance
designs is a viable alternative for the traditional draft hood.

Use of barometric dampers resulted in improved performance for appliances tested for all conditions in the field. (Exception-a downdraft condition performed in a lab test. Passed test later when a Star Kap was added).

JakeCK

Now now, I'm not trying to get anyone in trouble.

MikeAmann

@captainco

captainco said:

I am sure every chart I have read, whether it is airflow, water flow, electrical flow will show that the larger the pipe, the wire etc., the better the flow the more the flow.

Would this be a better way to phrase this (easier to understand)? I am sure every chart I have read, whether it is airflow, water flow, electrical flow will show that the larger the pipe, the wire etc., will give less resistance to that flow.

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

Now now, I'm not trying to get anyone in trouble.

Dan's main rule was always to be kind and respectful to others from the beginning.
Erin has the same rules and I try to follow them the best I can.

Charlie from wmass

Flow through a pipe is based on the volume of material put into the pipe. Adding 20 gallons per minute to a 3/4-in pipe will result in a higher speed flow than adding 20 gallons per minute to a 6-in pipe. Seems to be a basic misunderstanding of how chimneys function and why larger is not better. As my final comment on this thread I will say the chimney is too large and is causing condensing issues this is exasperated by the fact that it is an exterior chimney. There is nothing more to be added to the conversation that does not amount to the equivalent of making perpetual motion machines. Knowing scientific terms and understanding their function in the world are often very disconnected.

captainco

If you have a steam boiler that is operating at 8 oz. going into a 3" pipe, what would happen if you reduced the pipe to 2"? According to Dan, the steam would move much slower and take longer to get to the farthest point.

Good news Jake, is that Henry will be the one coming to your house today!

ChrisJ

captainco said:

If you have a steam boiler that is operating at 8 oz. going into a 3" pipe, what would happen if you reduced the pipe to 2"? According to Dan, the steam would move much slower and take longer to get to the farthest point. Good news Jake, is that Henry will be the one coming to your house today!

That depends on a lot.....
If the boiler is producing only enough volume for a 2" pipe to work acceptably nothing will happen, but your losses will drop because there's significantly less surface area to radiate heat.

JakeCK

ChrisJ said:

JakeCK said:

Now now, I'm not trying to get anyone in trouble.

Dan's main rule was always to be kind and respectful to others from the beginning.
Erin has the same rules and I try to follow them the best I can.

I was talking to Jim saying I wasn't trying to get anyone in trouble at the company that is working on my boiler. Lol but yes we all need to be respectful. Something that has gotten much harder to be these past few years.

JakeCK

captainco said:

Good news Jake, is that Henry will be the one coming to your house today!

Yea I got the text message. I'm glad too because I've been half tempted to shut it down and turn on a couple space heaters. I just do not like the way it is burning right now. 

JakeCK

Charlie from wmass said:

Flow through a pipe is based on the volume of material put into the pipe. Adding 20 gallons per minute to a 3/4-in pipe will result in a higher speed flow than adding 20 gallons per minute to a 6-in pipe. Seems to be a basic misunderstanding of how chimneys function and why larger is not better. As my final comment on this thread I will say the chimney is too large and is causing condensing issues this is exasperated by the fact that it is an exterior chimney. There is nothing more to be added to the conversation that does not amount to the equivalent of making perpetual motion machines. Knowing scientific terms and understanding their function in the world are often very disconnected.

But why now? What changed? This boiler has been installed in this house on that flue for almost 40 years. 12 of those years owned by me. It only started turning white this past year.

neilc

what else changed?
new doors/windows? insulation? air sealing? fireplace or insert? water heater? gas meter? work on the street?

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

Charlie from wmass said:

Flow through a pipe is based on the volume of material put into the pipe. Adding 20 gallons per minute to a 3/4-in pipe will result in a higher speed flow than adding 20 gallons per minute to a 6-in pipe. Seems to be a basic misunderstanding of how chimneys function and why larger is not better. As my final comment on this thread I will say the chimney is too large and is causing condensing issues this is exasperated by the fact that it is an exterior chimney. There is nothing more to be added to the conversation that does not amount to the equivalent of making perpetual motion machines. Knowing scientific terms and understanding their function in the world are often very disconnected.

But why now? What changed? This boiler has been installed in this house on that flue for almost 40 years. 12 of those years owned by me. It only started turning white this past year.

Rain water most certainly causes efflorescence.
It contains salt, calcium and other minerals.

captainco

Remember Jake they also found your gas meter was bad.

WMno57

WMno57

JakeCK said:

But why now? What changed? This boiler has been installed in this house on that flue for almost 40 years. 12 of those years owned by me. It only started turning white this past year.

Great question Jake.

captainco said:

Remember Jake they also found your gas meter was bad.

If the gas meter was sending too much gas to the boiler:

• flue gas in chimney might be hotter
  
• un-burned methane might be present (unlikely with external combustion, but possible)
  

If the gas meter was sending too little gas to the boiler:

• flue gas in chimney might be cooler (closer to condensing temp)
  

WMno57

I hope @Jamie Hall is OK. His absence in this thread has me concerned.

pedmec

You will never get a complete picture of whats going on without the complete readout from the combustion analyser.

If your getting high excess air plus condensation that really doesn't make sense. Excess air does nothing but pull heat out of the boiler which should result in a higher flue gas temperature, warmer chimney and a dilute flue gas. Makes me question original techs whether they were measuring in the right location. 0ppm on CO? with a bad gas meter. Something is not adding up.

JakeCK

We do not know when the gas meter started to go bad. It might not have been having problems last winter.

I have added insulation to the basement, and new storm windows. But that was this summer so could not have caused this. I did replace my gas water heater with an electric hybrid and abandoned and tore down the old chimney it used. But I would have thought this would help venting on the chimney/flue the boiler uses.

JakeCK

captainco said:

Remember Jake they also found your gas meter was bad.

I'm just glad it was discovered while it was being looked at and worked on and it didn't just happened randomly while I was working a 12hr shift. With the way it was firing who knows what that would have messed up.

The burners were cutting in and out. 

captainco

Thank goodness Henry was the one that showed up. His 20 years of doing combustion testing helped discover another unknown discrepancy. I am not sure someone without his experience would have understood the problem. There was a separation inside the boiler where the drafthood originally connected. He has to get some additional material to resolve this. When he is done, I believe Jake you will be quite impressed. He will be back to finish on Wednesday.

WMno57

random12345 said:

Germany is a terrible example to follow.

A little geothermal drilling mishap. Fortunately the Germans have "gut" duct tape.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staufen_im_Breisgau#Geothermal_drilling_controversy

but not "gut" enough

MikeAmann

All fixed.

pedmec

So that's what the German lettering translates to. "Add bandaid here" lol.

WMno57

@JakeCK , any updates on "Combustion in Cleveland"?

JakeCK

No real updates yet. 

The numbers aren't horrible right now but not the best. Next week the tech working on it is going to be coming back out. 

WMno57

Charlie from wmass said:

Flow through a pipe is based on the volume of material put into the pipe. Adding 20 gallons per minute to a 3/4-in pipe will result in a higher speed flow than adding 20 gallons per minute to a 6-in pipe. Seems to be a basic misunderstanding of how chimneys function and why larger is not better.

I would like to have a better understanding of fluid dynamics in larger vs smaller chimneys.
Air behaves as a fluid. Larger diameter pipes means less friction against the walls. True for water traveling through pipes. If Jake installed a 36 inch diameter chimney on his house:

• Would the hot combustion gasses have any interaction with the chimney walls?
  
• Would there be less draught to suck combustion gasses through Jake's atmospheric boiler?
  
• Would Charlie's father say draught beer or draft beer?
  

Air inputs can enter through the burner, barometric, and/or the chimney opening.
Paging @Jamie Hall to the classroom.

ChrisJ

The original complaint was condensation. Cooling the flue gasses causes them to condense.

The original complaint, I thought, had little if anything to do with actual draft.

I personally still think it's rain water leaking in the top of the chimney.
I would've wanted an insulated liner and the top of the chimney looked at and sealed / repaired as necessary and I would have left the boiler as the manufacturer made it.

It's not stupid if it works.

JakeCK

The original idea is if the flue gases aren't hot enough in the first place it doesn't matter how well insulated it is. Initial stack temperature is determined in the firebox not the flue. 

captainco

Chimneys are inanimate objects. They are chases not heat exchangers. Draft is created by the hot flue gases being displaced by cold air. Yes, when the flue is larger the gases make less contact with the surface, less friction of the flue and stay hotter.

Why do tall flues have higher draft? Not because they are warmer, but because there is more cold air exerting a force on the hot air.

Jamie Hall

Just for the sake of giggles, two exercises for the assembled multitude. First, what is the difference between an exhaust and a flue in a chimney (there is one, and it's important) and second, go look up Rumford fireplace. I can assure you that the latter work, and work without smoke in the house.

captainco

Sounds like a Bob Harper question. He is the fireplace guru and chimney master. But I do know a flue has to be vertical and an exhaust can be in any direction. An exhaust must have mechanical means to vent where a flue can be either mechanical or natural.

Sounds like the Rumford fireplace is a unique design but how does any flue know how many logs are burning? If the flue is not removing heat from the house then it isn't removing the CO2 either and possibly CO. I am not sure I always believe Extremist Predicting Armageddon (EPA).

JakeCK

Where it's at now. Not too shabby.

JakeCK

Also @captainco I clocked the meter again. I do not think it was as overfired as I thought originally. When I tried to clock it again today with these results I got an even higher reading initially which was not possible since we actually backed off on the gas pressure a good bit. What I discovered is that the half cu ft dial isn't moving smoothly enough. I had to use the 2 cu ft dial and that came out to almost exactly 140k btu which is what this boiler is rated for. 

MikeAmann

@JakeCK
Are you interested in posting the final solution?