I Think I Have A Problem.

captainco

We are talking about gas double acting barometrics not oil. Oil has to be set always. The gas barometrics are factory balanced for -.02" w.c. below them.

Charlie from wmass

Your comment is factually inaccurate and misleading. Please refer to the paper supplied with the barometric damper. 

captainco

Having worked with Field Controls engineers for over 30 years and helping contractors set up thousands of these I know their operation. What I stated was at that location it is set for almost every atmospheric furnace, water heater and boiler we have ever set up. Different locations may cause some necessary adjustments.
Just for the record Charlie, how many drafthood pieces of equipment have you modified with a barometric? That is very important when trying to teach others how to do it. The instructions also say check with the manufacturer or local gas company for the proper CO2 reading. With very few exceptions those instructions were written in the 1930's, by someone who has never installed one in the field. The CO2 reading is not the main criteria!!
We do teach how to verify they are set correctly with a combustion analyzer and when adjustments are necessary. A draft gauge is useless in setting them up.

Charlie from wmass

I have never modified a draft Hood piece of equipment with a barometric damper because it is a colossal waste of time and it causes more problems and introduces mechanical devices where they are not needed. I do not perform any work that voids the warranty on the equipment that I install.

Charlie from wmass

As to your comment that a draft gauge is useless for setting up a device that is designed to control draft definitely has me scratching my head. The modifications that you are making would also infringe upon any UL testing of the equipment and for my understanding of the code book, having been licensed for well over 30 years, these modifications also mean you were creating code violations to the national fuel code.

captainco

Why would you comment and mislead people on something that you know. absolutely nothing about? That is not the purpose of this site. I am sure you are more knowledgeable than me on air conditioning and other things but I would leave combustion out of it.
Sorry Erin if this is too harsh. Not trying to belittle but to keep misinformation from being presented,

captainco

Equipment is AGA or CGA approved not UL. A gas barometric has a AGA/CGA approval. The Code book does say they are useable when a drafthood doesn't work. In 1993 I spent a week in the field with the top AGA test engineer and we tested randomly 18 pieces of equipment with drafthoods. All of them tested dangerous with drafthoods. All of them tested safe with the drafthoods eliminated and barometrics in their place. These were in occupied buildings that were exposing people to Carbon Monoxide. Not a waste of time!

captainco

When setting up a barometric on a residential or commercial drafthood appliance, a draft gauge is useless for the proper setting!!

captainco

Charlie, I am being honest when I say thank-you for chiming in. These conversations are how people can learn things they don't know or understand.
Thank-you.

Charlie from wmass

I'm only chiming it now because I'm tired of biting my tongue. I have made a career out of fixing things that have been done that way thousands of times. Volume does not equate proper application of available technology. 

WMno57

My vintage mechanical device with the UL stamp.

EdTheHeaterMan

I have no opinion on this one. Looks like it will work, sounds like it is safer, not to the manufacturers spec. all good points. but I'm staying out of this one!

captainco

New
Barometric Draft Control Damper 5" Round
Field Controls MG1-5 Barometric Draft Control Damper 5" Round
MG1-5
View additional images
Item #:MG1-5
Manufacturer Item: 46210701
Manufacturer: FIELD CONTROLS LLC
A double-acting control for gas-fired furnaces and boilers is widely used for conversion burner installations, gas draft-induced appliance operation with mechanical draft inducers or sidewall power venters. It is also recommended for use on gas atmospheric appliances where a draft hood cannot be installed and can improve combustion stability and draft on many gas atmospheric installations with venting problems. The MG-1 provides precise, accurate control of drafts at levels higher than permitted by a standard draft diverter, which is a frequent requirement with gas. Because it is double-acting, it opens out to relieve positive vent system pressures as low as 0.01" draft adjustments using weights are simple and accurate from 0.01 - 0.1".

I forgot, that when AGA stopped certifying gas equipment and the Canadians stepped in, they use the CSA approval versus AGA. They stopped right after we did the field test to show the dangers of drafthood equipment. That is a long story.

Although the industry provides no information or recommendations for controlling combustion air to a burner, it is necessary. Combustion air is controlled by the draft in the flue. If you are disconnected from the flue with a drafthood then you have no control of combustion air. Induced draft and condensing equipment require draft control also to control combustion air but this is not industry standard, One of the biggest comments we make in class is that if you don't control combustion air you can't control combustion.

Timmie is a big believer in this, but he may just let me try to do my best to help! By the way that barometric is from the 80's

WMno57

My barometric may be older than 1980s.

"We proudly design, manufacture, and assemble our products in Kinston, North Carolina, which has been our home since 1977."
https://www.fieldcontrols.com/about-us/
Also on my sticker, no zip code, and Illinois is spelled out, not IL Mine seems to be from before Field separated from Conco.
Found this obituary for Harry D. Conkey II.
https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/newstrib/name/harry-conkey-obituary?id=16768797
" his father insisted he join the family business, H D Conkey & Co. founded by his grandfather, Harry in 1907. So, he and Lynn moved back to Mendota in 1960 where Harry began his business career.
For the next 20 years he and his father, Robert and their wonderful employees and colleagues built a great American manufacturing company. The Conco Inc. subsidiary of H D Conkey & Co. employed almost 900 persons at its peak. The diversified product lines included material handling (cranes), sewer cleaning equipment, barometric draft controls, and powder containers for military ordinance."

mattmia2

you could look up the dates of those patents

ChrisJ

While I do not know much about combustion I do know the length someone has done for something is never proof they are correct.

captainco

I have dealt with Field Controls since 1978. I am sure Patrick knows my name. The 4" and 5" gas barometrics were created because of my input. I have been to the plant in Kinston, and have had several Field Controls employees in my class. John Cotton knows me and NCI quite well.

Chrisj - No matter how long everyone does something wrong, it is still wrong!

Combustion is a life-or-death situation. Being wrong is a bad choice for many people. It is a shame that tens of thousands of HVAC techs are servicing gas appliances and have little or no clue about combustion. This is negligence and a sham of the worst kind.

captainco

ANSI Z223.1-
NFPA 54 -
National Fuel Gas Code


Notice and Disclaimer of Liability Concerning the Use of AGA and NFPA Documents

While the AGA and the NFPA administer the process and establish rule to promote fairness in the development of a consensus (idea or opinion), they do not independently test, evaluate, or verify the accuracy of any information or the soundness of any judgements contained in their Codes or Standards.

The AGA and the NFPA also make no guarantee or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of any information published within.

Anyone using this document should rely on his or her own independent judgement or, as appropriate, seek the advice of a competent (mediocre) professional in determining the exercise of reasonable care in any given circumstance.

Doesn't this make you feel warm and fuzzy? I follow the last paragraph of the Code exclusively.

ChrisJ

This is why when I converted my atmospheric gas boiler over to a barometric, and nothing behaved as expected and no one was able to provide a reason as to why it behaved in the manner it did, I put it back exactly to it's factory design. I was not confident in the modifications.

Regardless, after reverting back to the factory supplied drafthood the equipment functioned as expected. This was confirmed by a combustion analysis. At least under the conditions it was tested under.


I'm anxiously waiting for @JakeCK 's results honestly. I hope it works out for him as I know he's invested a good amount of money into it.

Charlie from wmass

@captainco what state are you licensed in to work on gas equipment? As far as they're being a disclaimer at the end of the code book I have no issue with that because typographical errors happen and that's what that is to cover.

captainco

Chrsij: What do you mean it didn't behave? Adding a barometric controls combustion air to the burner under all conditions. A drafthood controls nothing other than allowing flue gases to spill into the building.
National Fuel Gas Code

Z223 – 54

Definitions

3.3.32 Draft Hood

A nonadjustable device built into an appliance, or made part of the vent connector from an appliance, that is designed to (1) provide for the ready escape of the flue gases from the appliance in the event of no draft, backdraft, or stoppage beyond the drafthood.

(2) prevent a backdraft from entering the appliance and (3) neutralize the effect of stack action or draft of the chimney upon the operation of the appliance.
3.3.85.2 Draft Regulator

A device that functions to maintain a desired draft in the appliance by automatically reducing the draft to the desired value.

3.3.85.2.1 Barometric Draft Regulator

A balanced damper device attached to a chimney, vent connector, breeching, or the flue gas manifold to control chimney draft.

12.13 Draft Hoods and Draft Controls

12.13.1 Appliances Requiring Draft Hoods. Vented appliances shall be installed with draft hoods.

Exception: appliances requiring chimney draft for operation

12.16 Obstructions

Devices that retard the flow of vent gases shall not be installed in a vent connector, chimney, or vent.
Be
The following shall not be determined to be obstruction: Draft Regulators

captainco

I don't actually work on the equipment as a rule, I merely advise techs what needs to be done. I am not sure any state requires a license for just servicing.
Did you know the majority of car accidents are caused by licensed drivers. I am not familiar with any license that requires techs to measure and verify equipment is operating safe. Even the Code books removed all chapters pertaining to safety back in the 90's.

captainco

Eleven people poisoned in Newark, NJ apartment. 10/15/22 Defective drafthood equipment with no safeties. 24 pre-school kids poisoned in Allentown, PA. 10/12/22 Defective drafthood equipment with no safeties. Both of these had licensed contractors doing work and inspecting.

What killed four people this summer at the Sandals Resort in the Bahamas? Drafthood water heaters with no safeties.

There were no safeties on Jakes equipment but there is now!!

ChrisJ

@captainco

The burner had very high excess O2 even with a 7" barometric on a 6" flue with the barometric held wide open by hand and the manifold pressure set to 5".  The burner even sounded different.  

This is on a 125k input boiler connected to a 30' tall 6" b vent.

With the stock drafthood in place and 3.5" manifold pressure excess O2 was normal. 

I don't remember the numbers now as it's been a few years and I only did the physical work and a licensed contractor did the combustion analyzing and decisions other than me giving up and going back to stock.


I was fine with doing the physical work but didn't feel confident in testing etc so I had someone trained do that part.

Later on I was told we could have placed a damper in between the barometric and the boiler but the contractor I was working with didn't like that idea as it could be tampered with.

captainco

The O2 was low with the drafthood because the flue gases were barely getting out. Whenever the draft in the flue causes the barometric to open wide, it is necessary to install a neutral pressure plate or blast gate. It is set until the barometric is 50% closed, which gives it plenty of room to regulate.

What you say it true and I found that out way back in 1980 when we first started
using barometrics after eliminating the drafthood. Most equipment was underfired to compensate for the drafthoods inability to control combustion air.
What I hadn't known at first was that this modification not only improved venting, eliminated condensation, brought CO readings into a proper range but was saving 5% to 10% on energy costs. Of course the gas pressure was adjusted accordingly. As I stated earlier, never adjust gas pressure until you control combustion air!

Sorry you failed to call to follow through with the proper procedure.

ChrisJ

@captainco is such a thing installed on @JakeCK s boiler in that picture?  Or would it be hidden?

captainco

It is hanging on the lip of the barometric.

ChrisJ

captainco said:

It is hanging on the lip of the barometric.

The neutral pressure plate or blast gate?

I don't mean the spill switch, that I saw.

captainco

Not needed on this job. The draft is not excessive.

JakeCK

captainco said:

The O2 was low with the drafthood because the flue gases were barely getting out. Whenever the draft in the flue causes the barometric to open wide, it is necessary to install a neutral pressure plate or blast gate. It is set until the barometric is 50% closed, which gives it plenty of room to regulate. What you say it true and I found that out way back in 1980 when we first started using barometrics after eliminating the drafthood. Most equipment was underfired to compensate for the drafthoods inability to control combustion air. What I hadn't known at first was that this modification not only improved venting, eliminated condensation, brought CO readings into a proper range but was saving 5% to 10% on energy costs. Of course the gas pressure was adjusted accordingly. As I stated earlier, never adjust gas pressure until you control combustion air! Sorry you failed to call to follow through with the proper procedure.

You know what's funny? Monday when they come back I was planning on doing a little experiment with a scrap piece of vent. I was going to cut a small piece and slide it above the barometric and see if it resolved the issue we're seeing with excess O2. My excess O2 is WAY out of line and we're are full gas pressure and the barometric is adjusted all the way out. I was able to bring the O2 with in nominal range by opening the clean out door below but exair was still high. Basically doing that, I believe, used up some of the capacity of the flue and reduced how much was available for the appliance further down stream.

JakeCK

ChrisJ said:

@captainco is such a thing installed on @JakeCK s boiler in that picture?  Or would it be hidden?

No, but I do believe that is the solution. 

My boiler is a bit bigger then yours so it can use a bit more chimney.

One issue think will also need to be changed is that they sized up the flue past the old hood. It was originally 7" off the boiler and then 6" off the top of the draft hood. Now it is 7" to the thimble and the actual clay flue is got to be 10" or more. It's massive.

Mine is 140k btu input, 115k output if I'm not mistaken.

captainco

Maybe they hung all the weights on the barometric until they come back just for safety.. If the draft is that high the barometric would be wide open and they will change that when they come back. Have them call me if you have any questions!!

JakeCK

A Nice clean shot straight up my flue pipe.(that sounds bad)

JakeCK

captainco said:

Maybe they hung all the weights on the barometric until they come back just for safety.. If the draft is that high the barometric would be wide open and they will change that when they come back. Have them call me if you have any questions!!

There are no weights on it right now. Holding it wide open, the numbers are still WAY off.

Charlie from wmass

Perhaps you could have them open the draft Hood? Has anyone removed the burner tubes and clean them? Has a manifold gas pressure then checked? I apologize for not going back and reading the whole thread again so if this question is redundant I apologize, do the burner tubes have adjustable air shutters?

JakeCK

Tubes could probably use a cleaning but they aren't dirty enough to affect it. No adjustments on them. Just simple round burner tubes. Gas pressure has been adjusted. It changed it but not enough to correct it.

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

Tubes could probably use a cleaning but they aren't dirty enough to affect it. No adjustments on them. Just simple round burner tubes. Gas pressure has been adjusted. It changed it but not enough to correct it.

How did it perform in it's original configuration?

Charlie from wmass

Okay went back and read the post from the beginning. You need to properly size stainless steel liner. Your chimney flue is too large for your boiler and is causing condensation in the flue. I am sorry you have wasted all of this time, energy, money, and brain power. The answer to your problem was found on the first page of responses from 3 to 4 different individuals.

JakeCK

Charlie from wmass said:

Okay went back and read the post from the beginning. You need to properly size stainless steel liner. Your chimney flue is too large for your boiler and is causing condensation in the flue. I am sorry you have wasted all of this time, energy, money, and brain power. The answer to your problem was found on the first page of responses from 3 to 4 different individuals.

I must ask how does constricting the exhaust with a liner achieve stoichiometric combustion? Do we control our cars by putting smaller tailpipes on them? Sure we need a certain amount of back pressure in our cars exhaust but beyond that...

Charlie from wmass

That's bad analogy because cars have Pistons moving up and down creating motion of the combustibles and motion from the combusted products. If you think of your chimneys draft more like a turbocharger which is scavenging waste heat to move more combustible products through the engine and in this case you are not adding any more fuel to the mix then you would have a very lean situation. But to explain why installing a smaller liner will help with the condensing of the flue gases it is very simple by right sizing the chimney they are able to maintain temperature due to their higher velocity through the chimney liner without the mix in of excessive envelope air that is cooling down the flue gases. It was explained to me years ago like having a nice hot cup of coffee and adding too much cream to it.