How are people going to afford heat this year?

SlamDunk

@Jamie Hall , Yeah, but fewer environmental negatives than natural gas, oil and coal which pollutes from extraction through consumption, right?

Jamie Hall

Perhaps. Not necessarily. First, these days most hydrogen is made by steam reforming of... natural gas and oil. And produces, per molecule of hydrogen,, exactly the same amount of carbon dioxide --plus a little more,, actually, due to inherent (and unavoidable) thermodynamic constraints (plu you lose out on the energy available in the fuel from the oxidation of the carbon). So --no help there. Electrolytic hydrogen uses slightly more energy, in terms of electricity, than it gets out in terms of energy stored in hydrogen (again, it's that pesky Second Law). Now -- assessing environmental damage from electrical generation is difficult. If it's thermal, you're killed by the efficiency of the thermal powerplant (40% at best -- so roughly 2 and a half times as much fuel burned as useful hydrogen). If the electricity is solar, you have some considerations regarding solar power farms, as well as the environmental damage from mining the raw materials for the panels, which can be extensive. If it is wind, some folks have some concerns about environmental damage there (as well as aesthetic) as well. The upside of those two is that creating electrolytic hydrogen that way offers a very good way of storing the energy for when it's needed -- something those two have a problem with. If it's hydro, you have some real problems with supply (ask southern California) as well as the damage which reservoirs cause. Nuclear you still have the waste problem.

You really have to look at the whole picture, and then determine from that which damages you are willing to accept in exchange for which benefits -- something which, as I said, humans are singularly poor at doing, particularly when the benefits are local and the damages are, so to speak, over the hill.

ratio

Well if the H₂ is made from and with natural gas, oil, and coal, it's hard to see how it's going to be an overall reduction. I know that we've been promised wind, solar, tidal (remember that Popular Mechanics article?), etc., but really, think any one, or even all together, will get us to net negative?

We use too much. Efficiency improvements will mask that for a while but isn't going to solve it

leonz

As hydrogen gas can be made from potable water using electrolysis they have been working on systems that manufacture it as it is needed by a vehicle too.

I have not kept up with the hydrogen work so I am handicapped a bit; but much like distilling your own alcohol for fuel use is legal, hydrogen will be useable in the near future which is something that I am sure will come about and the utilities will see a drop in natural gas consumption.

Jamie Hall

leonz said:

As hydrogen gas can be made from potable water using electrolysis they have been working on systems that manufacture it as it is needed by a vehicle too.

....

Yes it can, @leonz -- or, for that matter non-potable water or seawater. Very easy to do. Just take a nice DC current and two electrodes and throw the switch. Capture the gas. No problem.

Except... you have to generate the electricity. With something. What? And because of the pesky Second Law, you get less energy out than you put in.

Where is that electricity coming form???

(That's a problem with electric vehicles, or converting heating systems, or... but we've been over all that before).

hot_rod

leonz said:

from the main to the homes where a vault would be used with a steam rated closure valve for the home to shut the line off if needed to the home steam line. The same would be true for hot water heating with a second line for the cooler return water to the heating plant. ==================================================================================================================================

District heating -- preferably steam, as there is much more heat transfer capacity -- is perfectly feasible, @leonz . New York, among other cities, has been (or had been) using it for years. One can have one pipe or two pipe steam, or can use a heat exchanger for either hot water or forced air. No problem with that. But... What is your heat source? It's not going to be coal or any other fossil fuel. It could be nuclear, but I can't imagine much future in trying to site a nuclear reactor -- even one of the advanced ones now available -- in an urban setting. If it's something electrically powered, it's going to be a lot cheaper to run the electricity to the site rather than pipes.

For a city's district heating, the heat source could be municipal solid waste. It's a fuel resource with decades of cache (landfills) that's not likely to run out, and with existing transport infrastructure.

================================================================ In our area my thought would be to use the Western coals which burns much cleaner to make steam and deliver it with a single pipe system at 15 pounds pressure in the pipeline as is done at Cornell University to heat its buildings. Of course the typical residence would use only 1.5 PSIG dry steam to heat a home in any case as would an multiple apartment house. The typical old city dumps/town dumps do not exist anymore nor are they useable for large methane collection and use for that matter. Our old Ithaca city dump located near the Lehigh Valley railroad yard was hacked through with a flood control channel in 1965 by the U.S. Army Corp of Engineers to reduce lake flooding risk. Use of municipal waste for power generation would require an incinerator built as well as the OCCRA rock cut road incinerator on route 481 in the Town of Geddes in Onondaga County outside of Syracuse NY or for more municipal waste to be transported to the Rock Cut Road facility or the garbage to steam plant owned by Cargill near Albany, NY. Tapping into the methane flow from the landfills near Buffalo, NY would be an option but the issue would always be how much methane can be reclaimed as it would have to be collected at negative pressure, cleaned, scrubbed of impurities then compressed and then used in a small diesel engine to push power back into the grid to sell it and recoup the cost over several decades.

The methane from a landfill is not very easy to run engines with. the quality is ever changing and it is tough to keep the engines running.
Caterpiller worried on a plant near me for years and never was able to make it workable. Probably better to burn it and make hot water. I imagine burners struggle with the quality.

Could be the type of garbage in the landfills?

Jamie Hall

One of the wastewater treatment plants I used to run used the methane from the anaerobic digesters to power a couple of generators. On top of variable quality -- although it wasn't too bad that way -- the stuff is remarkably corrosive from sulphur compounds which are also in it. Not much fun to work with. The plant gave up on it -- the engines (flathead Fords) couldn't meet emissions controls... so now they flare it.

neilc

Jamie Hall said:

One of the wastewater treatment plants I used to run used the methane from the anaerobic digesters to power a couple of generators. On top of variable quality -- although it wasn't too bad that way -- the stuff is remarkably corrosive from sulphur compounds which are also in it. Not much fun to work with. The plant gave up on it -- the engines (flathead Fords) couldn't meet emissions controls... so now they flare it.

@Jamie Hall, or anyone,
if an engine couldn't burn clean enough,
is the "flaring" option any better / cleaner?
or are we giving up the "co gen" for seeing the greens between the trees,
(doesn't it still make sense to burn it and get some benefit? )

ratio

It has nothing to do with cleaner, only regulations. </cynicism>

Jamie Hall

ratio said:

It has nothing to do with cleaner, only regulations. </cynicism>

Verily what you say is true... that's what did it.

cowdog

Jamie Hall said:

One of the wastewater treatment plants I used to run used the methane from the anaerobic digesters to power a couple of generators. On top of variable quality -- although it wasn't too bad that way -- the stuff is remarkably corrosive from sulphur compounds which are also in it. Not much fun to work with. The plant gave up on it -- the engines (flathead Fords) couldn't meet emissions controls... so now they flare it.

Given the current administration's opposition to flaring, why don't they sue the regulator in feral court for holding renewable electricity to a higher standard than flaring?

HomerJSmith

426hemi, your post is only partly right. It should be, "How are people going to afford to eat this year?" You mistakenly hit the "h" key.

cowdog

HomerJSmith said:

426hemi, your post is only partly right. It should be, "How are people going to afford to eat this year?" You mistakenly hit the "h" key.

Everyone grow veggies in backyard! Take out the cheap carbohydrates and we will see a massive drop in obesity and type 2 diabetes.

Labenaqui

Use a Heating Cost Calculator for your region, join a Fuel Co-Op and upgrade your appliance(s). Be set when this "smoke clears" .....

Jamie Hall

cowdog said:

HomerJSmith said:

426hemi, your post is only partly right. It should be, "How are people going to afford to eat this year?" You mistakenly hit the "h" key.

Everyone grow veggies in backyard! Take out the cheap carbohydrates and we will see a massive drop in obesity and type 2 diabetes.

Everyone? Please. Get a grip on reality. Go to the nearest big city, and spend some time. Just do it.

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

cowdog said:

HomerJSmith said:

426hemi, your post is only partly right. It should be, "How are people going to afford to eat this year?" You mistakenly hit the "h" key.

Everyone grow veggies in backyard! Take out the cheap carbohydrates and we will see a massive drop in obesity and type 2 diabetes.

Everyone? Please. Get a grip on reality. Go to the nearest big city, and spend some time. Just do it.

@Jamie Hall
Oliver Wendell Douglas had no problems doing it!

ratio

Who remembers Victory Gardens as anything other than a pic in a history book?

JakeCK

Jamie Hall said:

426hemi, your post is only partly right. It should be, "How are people going to afford to eat this year?" You mistakenly hit the "h" key.

Everyone grow veggies in backyard! Take out the cheap carbohydrates and we will see a massive drop in obesity and type 2 diabetes.

Everyone? Please. Get a grip on reality. Go to the nearest big city, and spend some time. Just do it.

Exactly. What is the minimum acreage per person to self sustain? 4 acres? Or is it 4 acres for a family of four? Can't remember. My little city lot is .12 acres I think, 40ft by 130ft deep not including the tree lawn. And that includes a house, driveway and a two car garage.

HomerJSmith

As far as electrolysis goes, it's energy in to energy out. There must be a gain or you're going broke.

I was in L.A. a couple of years ago and I saw corn growing in the median between the street and the sidewalk. And... There were community gardens in parts of L.A..

Every form of energy production has its drawbacks, every. Even you take in energy and create energy which led to the invention of water closets and a problem with disposal.

Nuclear is considered the cleanest form of energy, environmentally speaking, only it ignores the disposal of the residue which can be 10,000 yrs.

The reality is you can change something, but your still left with something you have to deal with.

Jamie Hall

ratio said:

Who remembers Victory Gardens as anything other than a pic in a history book?

Actually, I do. And an elegantly prepared can of Spam with all the trimmings for Sunday dinner. And gasoline and rubber rationing. And shovelling rationed coal to keep warm in the winter. And skyrocketing inflation (now three times, sigh...). No thank you. Anyone under 50 has absolutely no clue how good we have it now -- and I have no desire to go back.

cowdog

Jamie Hall said:

cowdog said:

HomerJSmith said:

426hemi, your post is only partly right. It should be, "How are people going to afford to eat this year?" You mistakenly hit the "h" key.

Everyone grow veggies in backyard! Take out the cheap carbohydrates and we will see a massive drop in obesity and type 2 diabetes.

Everyone? Please. Get a grip on reality. Go to the nearest big city, and spend some time. Just do it.

Urban houses (single or multi family) usually have a backyard, however small, even in NYC.
Attached are google earth of NYC's Fort Greene (downtown brooklyn) and Los Angeles (central LA, not far way from Hollywood and downtown LA). Look at how much green backyard area. At least 1/3 of total area size. Most have pre-existing spray irrigation installed, which can be modified to also spray fertilizers and pesticides.

I didn't say totally self sufficient, but that little backyard could grow more than enough lettuce or tomatoes for a family. If you do 3D farming you can have vine on top and shade veggies on the bottom.

cowdog

JakeCK said:

Exactly. What is the minimum acreage per person to self sustain? 4 acres? Or is it 4 acres for a family of four? Can't remember. My little city lot is .12 acres I think, 40ft by 130ft deep not including the tree lawn. And that includes a house, driveway and a two car garage.

You need 0.02 acre to grow enough veggies for your family. The tree lawn can grow fruit trees on top and shade veggies on bottom.

Carbohydrates are cheap, protein has cheap sources (everyone can buy soybeans, and someone knows how to hunt and slaughter small animals, someone knows how to raise pig/chicken with trash), veggies can be grown in backyard. Backyard veggies have much less processing and logistic waste compared to commercially farmed veggies.

Jamie Hall

Well, I have to give you credit for persistence, if nothing else.

SlamDunk

We had a 20'x 20' vegetablle garden in the bronx...we grew tomatoes, jerusalem artichokes , green peppers, squash, cukes, and eggplant. We got free horse manure for fertilizer all winter long from the NYPD horse stables in Pelham park, in trash bags, using city buses. We fished weekly of City Island, and We got fresh poultry or rabbit from our local el vivero cheap. None of which would defray the cost to heat our home at these prices. But, we were,and are healthy from the experience.

Jamie Hall

Not saying it can't be done. We did (family of four at the time) very nicely on a 30 by 60 foot garden in Vermont for a few years. Big freezer. Some things we did have to "import" or buy elsewhere -- meat, flour, sugar, that sort of thing. But... only one of us had (or needed, in those wonderful days) and outside job, which helped.

So for some people it's quite feasible. For others, maybe not so much, In other areas, maybe not so much (just what are those coastal California people going to do for water?). Families with both parents working? Families with only one parent? Approaches and solutions need to work for all the people to whom they are applied -- or imposed.

SlamDunk

You have to be very resourceful to survive during hard times. My parents were from the depression and they knew how to survive. "If you can clean a toilet, you can survive" is what they would say. "It may be dirty but there is no shame." So, my first job at 13 was cleaning toilets in an office building. Hard times harden people, it also unites us.

Mom shared a lot of bounty with our dear neighbors who weren't as blessed. In return, they would give her a five pound block of govt issued american cheese- and intel when us boys were headed for trouble. Hard times. Not really that scary to me.

ratio

Hard times make strong men. Strong men make good times. Good times make weak men. Weak men make hard times.

SlamDunk

I like that!

ratio

Kind of explains everything, doesn't it?

SlamDunk

Concise and to the point. Beautiful.

JakeCK

cowdog said:

Exactly. What is the minimum acreage per person to self sustain? 4 acres? Or is it 4 acres for a family of four? Can't remember. My little city lot is .12 acres I think, 40ft by 130ft deep not including the tree lawn. And that includes a house, driveway and a two car garage.

You need 0.02 acre to grow enough veggies for your family. The tree lawn can grow fruit trees on top and shade veggies on bottom. Carbohydrates are cheap, protein has cheap sources (everyone can buy soybeans, and someone knows how to hunt and slaughter small animals, someone knows how to raise pig/chicken with trash), veggies can be grown in backyard. Backyard veggies have much less processing and logistic waste compared to commercially farmed veggies.

Sorry, I disagree. Just throwing together some quick numbers. Take tomato's for example. @ 22 calories per tomato you would need 91 just to feed a single human adult for one day. For a year that would be over 33000 tomatoes. Now no one wants to eat tomatoes for a year nor would they provide all the nutrients a person would need but it gives you an idea of just how much space it takes to grow sufficient food to feed a person. There is also the issue of irrigation and fertilizer. Depending on how bad it gets those could become an issue, further limited the productivity of a plot of land. Remember even the victory gardens during WW2 were still largely symbolic. Also keep in mind many plants actually take more calories to digest then they provide. The human digestive system is not optimized for a completely herbivore diet. The reason we still eat them is because of other nutrients they provide and for culinary reasons such as taste.

Growing up my mother kept a large vegetable garden, it was easily as large as the open area of my yard, if I remember it was about 40x60ft. It didn't come close to supplying all of our needs. Oh I subtracted my garage, house and driveway from my total lot. I have roughly 2700sq ft of open area, or about .06acres. 

Now in a real emergency I could hunt the abundant deer in my neighborhood (complaining neighbors be damned) and fulfill a much larger calorie need, but I suspect if times were to get that tough the quantity of deer in a region of millions of people would drop quickly. Sure I grew up knowing how to hunt, I still have my 45 muzzle loader and all of my hunting and sub zero gear but when people get desperate... Even a well placed 9mm could drop a buck. That just raises the question of how much waste and contamination there would be, most people in the city wouldn't a clue how to field dress a deer.

Sorry if this seems a little off topic, but I've been accused of being a 'prepper' before. I have a large deep freezer full of food and several months worth of non perishable food(beans, rice, oats, etc) stored for the family. I know how much it takes to sustain a person. No easy feat when times get REALLY tough.