Steam Boiler, Can it be traded in

BirchLeaf

If a steam boiler (installed 2 months ago) is removed/uninstalled, can it be reused elsewhere? Can it be used as a trade-in for a new steam boiler?

SteamingatMohawk

Ask your lawyer.

BirchLeaf

@SteamingatMohawk
What do you mean?

MaxMercy

BirchLeaf said:

If a steam boiler (installed 2 months ago) is removed/uninstalled, can it be reused elsewhere? Can it be used as a trade-in for a new steam boiler?

I assume you ran into a dead-end with the original installer?

Someone will buy it, but you probably won't get much. A big percentage of the cost of boiler replacements is the installation labor and incidental stuff. You can try listing it on Craigslist or FB Marketplace, but the logistics of moving a chunk like that doesn't make for a big market. You might get lucky and find someone who just discovered a leak in his boiler and is weighing options.

You can take a shot with taking the original installer to small claims, but you'll need to have the boiler available for the original installer to retrieve in case you should win your claim.

As far as trading it in with professional installers go, an installer who does a lot of steam boiler installations might be inclined to give you a trade in allowance figuring they can find a home for it fairly quickly, but that's assuming that this company uses your particular boiler in their installations. Your best option is to call around, but I would still stay with an installer who has a reputation for knowing how to properly pipe a steamer even if it means they won't accept your trade.

Have you talked to the boiler manufacturer and asked them how far you can down-fire the one you have now?

SteamingatMohawk

I'm thinking more about you going back at the installer and forcing the issue, not strictly a "trade in" with whoever you would do the trade with..

BirchLeaf

@MaxMercy I spoke with the  manufacturer. The tech person I spoke with said it can't be "down fired."

I'm going to call a couple of new heating contractors. I'll check with them to see if they would take it as a trade in.

I'm calling friends, neighbors re: heating installers. Wish I knew who is the best with steam boilers.

Thank you!

MaxMercy

BirchLeaf said:

@MaxMercy I spoke with the  manufacturer. The tech person I spoke with said it can't be "down fired."

I'm going to call a couple of new heating contractors. I'll check with them to see if they would take it as a trade in.

I'm calling friends, neighbors re: heating installers. Wish I knew who is the best with steam boilers.

Thank you!

What is your gas usage like since the new boiler was installed compared to the original?

BirchLeaf

@MaxMercy I can't tell because there were some frigid days in February. Plus a lot of warm days.

BirchLeaf

@MaxMercy
I looked back. I used 27 more therms this Feb. compared to Feb. 2021.
It was colder in Feb. 2021. Also, this Feb. (2022), on many days and nights, I kept the thermostat down very low so I wouldn't have to hear all the excessive clanging noises from the radiators

pecmsg

BirchLeaf said:

If a steam boiler (installed 2 months ago) is removed/uninstalled, can it be reused elsewhere? Can it be used as a trade-in for a new steam boiler?

Contact someplace like Habitat for Humanity and take a tax write off. 

mattmia2

The clanging isn't a result of the boiler being oversized, it is the result of it being improperly installed. If you set it up with an oversized drop header it will run shorter cycles but it will heat just fine and will only be slightly less efficient. If it is not installed properly it will burn a lot of excess fuel.

Note that your radiators will get to 212 F or so with a properly sized boiler as well.

MaxMercy

BirchLeaf said:

@MaxMercy
I looked back. I used 27 more therms this Feb. compared to Feb. 2021.
It was colder in Feb. 2021. Also, this Feb. (2022), on many days and nights, I kept the thermostat down very low so I wouldn't have to hear all the excessive clanging noises from the radiators

Post some pics of the near boiler piping. Installation of steam boilers has a huge effect on efficiency compared to hydronic which is far more fool proof.

SteamingatMohawk

Before you go get another new boiler, have you determined the EDR of your system? I'm too lazy to go look back at all your discussions.

Then, compare that to your boiler nameplate information, including adjusting for pickup factor. The guys on HH can help you with that better than I can.

Once you know the results, you can make a more informed decision on what you "should", not "can" do.

KC_Jones

The EDR is 204, current boiler gives them 108% pick up factor.

SteamingatMohawk

I got unlazy and found a comment in one of the other discussions where he said the EDR you quoted (thanks by the way) is 321sqft, later corrected to 325 sqft. How did you get the pickup factor?

System EDR + pickup factor = boiler rating

325 / 204 = 159%. What do I have wrong?

mattmia2

There is a pickup factor baked in to the boiler rating so you would need to add that to the boiler rating to get the actual output then compare that to the connected radiation.

KC_Jones

SteamingatMohawk said:

I got unlazy and found a comment in one of the other discussions where he said the EDR you quoted (thanks by the way) is 321sqft, later corrected to 325 sqft. How did you get the pickup factor?

System EDR + pickup factor = boiler rating

325 / 204 = 159%. What do I have wrong?

325 is with 33% pickup factor, so to get the actual pick up factor for any installation one has to work from the gross output. On the boiler in question that would be ~432

432-204=228 for pick up
228/204=1.117 or 111.7%

My original calculations were based on the 321 number which comes out to 108, with the actual 325 it gets a bit worse.

Jamie Hall

OK. Think we can agree that the boiler is too big. How much too big? Some. However, this isn't the end of the world, since there are ways of controlling a too big boiler -- even an outrageously too big boiler -- without trying to get rid of it in some way (difficult to impossible without losing your shirt) and installing a smaller one (which isn't going to be free either, unless one finds a very charitable installer and supplier).

Figure out how to make what you've got run satisfactorily, and fix the oversize problem on the next go.

MaxMercy

Jamie Hall said:

Figure out how to make what you've got run satisfactorily, and fix the oversize problem on the next go.

I don't think he's at that point yet. He's still looking to downsize the boiler because he's convinced his high gas usage is strictly from oversizing and not the installation. Reading back, he doesn't want to post the near boiler piping for reasons he doesn't give.

Maybe he'll get a new boiler and then be back when he's still using more gas than his old boiler did.

SteamingatMohawk

No one is disputing the boiler is oversized. My question has to do with the extent of it being oversized and making sense out of BTUH input, Heating capacity, net rating in sq ft steam and Steam BTUH in the chart attached. GSA-125. Look at the notes for explanation.

https://williamson-thermoflo.com/sites/default/files/field-file/2299_therm_gsa_spread1012_printr3.pdf

ChrisJ

Have we seen pictures of how the boiler was piped yet?
Since we now have like 10 threads on the same subject I've lost track.

KC_Jones

ChrisJ said:

Have we seen pictures of how the boiler was piped yet?
Since we now have like 10 threads on the same subject I've lost track.

Nope, so we only have part of the story.

If it's piped poorly and gets replaced with another poorly piped boiler it probably won't make a difference in the performance of the system. Correctly sized or not.

JUGHNE

And there have been multiple requests for pictures thru out those 10 or so threads.

MaxMercy

JUGHNE said:

And there have been multiple requests for pictures thru out those 10 or so threads.

He has said he won't post pics, but won't say why. I can't think of any logical reason he wouldn't agree to that request since it's a critical factor in the puzzle with his new boiler unless he installed the boiler himself and it's butchered.

ChrisJ

Some may disagree with me but I feel if we can't see how this boiler was installed, we cannot be of any help to someone.

It's a complete waste of time.

pedmec

because he probably piped it himself

ethicalpaul

pedmec said:

because he probably piped it himself

Because a contractor would never fail to read the manual and pipe it correctly? That's your take on this?

ChrisJ

ethicalpaul said:

because he probably piped it himself

Because a contractor would never fail to read the manual and pipe it correctly? That's your take on this?

It seems very odd they will not share any pictures at all.

Something's fishy.

mattmia2

could just be a hoarding situation or something

pedmec

no. because hes not sharing his pics. what's the problem with sharing your pic's if your looking for help?

pedmec

especially considering the near boiler piping is the critical part with getting dry steam out of the boiler and into the system. unless the near boiler piping is correct there is no need to get out of the boiler room.

SteamingatMohawk

If you can find his other postings, you will eventually see where he admitted the boiler has already been replaced.

It all started with a speculation about removing what he thought was a LWCO probe.

BirchLeaf

@ChrisJ There's nothing fishy about it. I'm nervous about posting any pics online. I'm also nervous about the contractor and his partner (who live in my town). How will posting pics on here help me? I want the boiler removed and replaced. I sent pics to the manufacturer rep and he says that the piping configuration is wrong.

SteamingatMohawk

@BirchLeaf As I previously mentioned to you in messages, your refusal to provide the guys on HH with relevant information is counterproductive. Either cooperate or stop asking for help.

mattmia2

Asking that it be piped correctly or even a bit beyond the spec in that manual is absolutely reasonable. Asking that the boiler be replaced with one that better matches the load of the house it a much steeper climb. It isn't the correct way to do it but if it is piped correctly it will be quiet, comfortable, and efficient. It may eventually have some controls like a gas valve or especially a vent damper wear out sooner than otherwise expected(still probably a couple decades) but it is an acceptable solution to the problem. Telling you a leaking fitting means you need a new boiler is more of an issue.

ChrisJ

BirchLeaf said:

@ChrisJ There's nothing fishy about it. I'm nervous about posting any pics online. I'm also nervous about the contractor and his partner (who live in my town). How will posting pics on here help me? I want the boiler removed and replaced. I sent pics to the manufacturer rep and he says that the piping configuration is wrong.

That's ok.
I'm nervous about helping people online.

Ultimately you got the answer though.
It's also piped wrong so the complete install is no good, not just the boiler sizing.

That's why we wanted pictures.
Sizing a boiler is the easy part, if they couldn't get that even close to correct chances are the hard part is also wrong.

BirchLeaf

@ChrisJ
I appreciate your help and your answers.

You're nervous about helping people online? Are you being sarcastic? I hope not.

This contractor and his partner (as I've learned) are unethical and live in my hometown. They do make me nervous. During the whole install, I got an off vibe from them. (If I was a guy, maybe I wouldn't feel like this.) 

clammy

A few very quick questions about your in town contractors ,
1 are they licensed and insured in your state ?
2 where permits pulled for this job if they where required
If the answers are no to both then your most likely stuck .
As for posting pictures I highly doubt that installers are even aware of this site if so they would not have installed a over sized mis piped boiler as simple as that and if they are looking at this site then they should make it right .
Was the reason you picked these guys based on price or on references from neighbors?
As for returning a installed boiler it’s either yours or the installers ,it’s not the supply houses or manufactures fault it was not them who pick the size and installed .
And as I have been doin this for what might be considered a long time and from my experiences the main cause for over sized mis piped boilers in general is a total lack of knowledge on part of the installers who should not be in this line of work . The other issues are always price point and usually the others guys are cheaper and as we all know money talks and when people are paying no matter what you say the bottom line is the cheapest price is the one who gets the job plain and simple .
As for being afraid of the installers ,weather your a man or a woman I will say the guys like myself who are approaching being a ole timer aren’t in this trade because they where alter or choir boys in another life but in that same breathe we don’t try to scare or intimidate the home owners it s just as for myself alot old of school habits which are not political correct these days unfortunately We may swear and curse but it comes w the territory .remember no one said we where choir boys .
Have you attempted to contact any of the listed steams pros on this site in your area ? This may be the best thing to do in your case . After locating a pro and some one who truely is a steam pro there should not be really any gray areas when it comes to getting a properly installed and functioning steam job the major difference is cost ! That’s always the difference between a pro and a non steam pro a pro knows exactly what it takes and cost to do the job right and does not cut corners ,pipes the boiler properly ,replaces main and radiator vents ,flushes wet returns and cleans and skims the boilers along w all the other important aspects of any heating system install ,ie chimney ,gas piping electric and thermostat .Unfortunately you did not get a real steam installer or a real Mechanic just some one who connects pipes the truth be told .
You should be upfront w your installer and if he does nothing contact the better business bureau if he s licensed contact the state and complain but if no permits pulled your stuck between a rock and a hard place and have to hope the installer makes things right ..
Peace and good luck clammy

MaxMercy

BirchLeaf said:

@ChrisJ
I appreciate your help and your answers.

You're nervous about helping people online? Are you being sarcastic? I hope not.

This contractor and his partner (as I've learned) are unethical and live in my hometown. They do make me nervous. During the whole install, I got an off vibe from them. (If I was a guy, maybe I wouldn't feel like this.) 

I'm sure he was being sarcastic and responding to your reticence to post pictures of your boiler as installed. I mean, what's to fear? It's not like anyone could identify your location from a boiler install. In any case, your problem seems to be twofold: your boiler is oversized and your near-boiler piping is apparently incorrect. How incorrect is something pics would show. You sent pics to the boiler manufacturer, why not post pics here? Did the mob install the boiler (saying that half in jest) for you?

In a steam installation, boiler piper is probably somewhere between 70-90% in importance when it comes to fuel usage and 100% when it comes to things like noises, banging, surging, etc. Once properly piped, steamers are very docile.

Even if you posted pics, I personally wouldn't be able to help you (no steam experience), but I've hung around this forum long enough to know that near-boiler piping is *critical*, and that's why the pros can't offer the help you need. Give them something to work with.

reggi

Fear whether the danger is real or not is real to that person that is feeling it and even though she's taking a step by reaching out for help she still is in fear though she's willing to use words to describe what she won't show in photos... there's usually a experience, life reason for this feeling so don't expect it to change overnight if ever.. You have good hearts... She's not doing it on purpose.. someone will figure it out without pics at least we've got creative minds here