dating american radiator company radiator

Jenniferhardin

Hi there! Wondering if anyone could help me date these radiators? They are in a home I recently purchased. I read that there might be a data plate with date of manufacture but don’t see one upon my inspection. Wondering when they might be from! Thank you!

Intplm.

That's a beauty. Is this typical of the radiators in your home? Care to post some more? Would be very much appreciated.

That is a National Radiator company radiator. Probably manufactured in the late 1800s / early 1900s. I believe the company has changed hands many times but, if I'm not mistaken is now part of the American Standard Company.

As for a more specific date? The ID plates are usually on the boiler in the system. Haven't seen a date stamp on a radiator that I can remember.

Maybe someone else on this site will know.

Thanks for posting that very good-looking radiator.

SlamDunk

Could be as old as your home.

bobbob

Those are pieces of fine art

EBEBRATT-Ed

Pre 1920s probably pre 1900

pecmsg

my HMD home is 1920’s same style but HW, if it matters. 

Jenniferhardin

@Intplm. Yes! All but one of our radiators is same/very similar style! We were told our home was built in 1928, but the previous owner told us he had suspicions the house was actually older than that. So I was wondering if I might find more info on these radiators to indicate any more specific time stamps to our house! Thanks for the help and interest! So many beautiful details I love about this home including the radiators! Some more pics here   (wasn’t sure if the “N3” inside the columns gave any indicator for identification either)

EdTheHeaterMan

The title of this discussion reminds me of Match.com


@Jenniferhardin , Edtheheaterman sent you a spark *

The American Radiator company was founded in 1892 form a merger of several other radiator manufacturers. The American Radiator merged with the Standard Sanitary co. in 1929 to form American Standard. So without any other information you can be pretty sure those radiators were made between 1892 and 1929.

Another resource might be the County Clerk record room. That is where all the mortgages and deeds are recorded. I looked up my deed (pre-covid) to see who owned my lot before the house was built. On an old home like yours, you might find some interesting facts at the Clerks Office.

Enjoy your research.

Mr.Ed


PS. I'm in a relationship so the spark was just a joke. LOL

Steamhead

EdTheHeaterMan said:

The title of this discussion reminds me of Match.com


@Jenniferhardin , Edtheheaterman sent you a spark *
PS. I'm in a relationship so the spark was just a joke. LOL

File this under "dad jokes".................

As to the radiators themselves, they are the "Perfection" model made by American Radiator Co. You can see them here, starting on page 55 of the PDF you can download from this page:

https://heatinghelp.com/heating-museum/1897-american-radiator-company-catalog/

EdTheHeaterMan

Thanks @Steamhead, I was just looking at the Museum when i got a notice of your post. You beat me to it. @Jenniferhardin should be pleased with this info!

mattmia2

EdTheHeaterMan said:

The American Radiator company was founded in 1892 form a merger of several other radiator manufacturers. The American Radiator merged with the Standard Sanitary co. in 1929 to form American Standard. So without any other information you can be pretty sure those radiators were made between 1892 and 1929.

I wouldn't count on the branding to tell you the date. We have seen boilers on here from the 30's and 40's branded "american radiator" or "arco" and i have seen fixtures from the 60's or so branded "standard".

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Another resource might be the County Clerk record room. That is where all the mortgages and deeds are recorded. I looked up my deed (pre-covid) to see who owned my lot before the house was built. On an old home like yours, you might find some interesting facts at the Clerks Office.

In larger counties and cities this is usually online in some form at least in partial records that you can use to trace ownership and maybe if there is a structure there. Sanborn insurance maps and Polk directories may also be resources for areas that were a city when the house was built.

Looking at how the house is built, foundation material, dimensions and surfacing of lumber, how moldings, cabinets, windows, doors, and other millwork are constructed, type of plaster or other wall material, original siding and roofing materials, original electrical work, if various mechanical systems look original or if they were added like plumbing and gas piping all can be clues about the age of the structure. I think that multi piece baseboard tended to be earlier than the 20's.

Larry Weingarten

Hi, One thing I look for to help know the age of a house is original cast iron sinks or tubs. These usually have a date stamp, if you can get to it.

Yours, Larry

mattmia2

And toilets, there is usually a date stamp inside the tank, although if it was built before the 20's there is a very good chance it did not originally have indoor plumbing.

Jenniferhardin

@Larry Weingarten ooh good tip! We do have an old farmhouse sink in the kitchen. I checked the underneath at its stamped 1930! So I guess not original but close to it! Very interesting thank you!!

Jenniferhardin

@Steamhead ahh that is amazing! How cool to see these in the catalog. Thank you for identifying it and sharing that catalog! Very interesting!

JUGHNE

How many chimneys does the house have or used to have.
Any fireplaces?

If only a single chimney near the boiler then good chance heating system was original to the house.
If each room had a fireplace or chimney opening then maybe it did not start out with single central heating.

Probably evidence of a coal room in the basement. Coal window/chute would be larger than regular bsmt windows, usually.
Small pulleys attached to the ceiling were used for chain control of dampers, sometimes from the main floor....raise and lower a chain to control the heat.
Usually small 1/2" holes in the floor for that.

Are you gas or oil now?

Often add on steam systems did not use all the same design of radiators.
Odds and ends were installed.

Yours all look the same and organized as if there was a plan.

Now that we know you, can we see your basement and boiler piping?

EdTheHeaterMan

JUGHNE said:

Now that we know you, can we see your basement and boiler piping?

Sounding more like a dating site, Next thing... you will be setting up a meet for coffee.

hot_rod

a double date?

JUGHNE

Sounds like two dirty old men "dad jokester" comments.

hot_rod

JUGHNE said:

Sounds like two dirty old men "dad jokester" comments.

Ed and I getting together for lunch with a radiator. How much more hydronic does it get
Actually I'll be in Ocean City, NJ for the 4th of July, just saying

reggi

Measure your baseboards thickness, if it's 1" thick it's most likely pre-1920

Jenniferhardin

@JUGHNE thank you!!! We don’t have any fireplaces currently but there is a framing for one in the kitchen and *possibly* a second in the living room that’s now covered up. There is an old coal chute in the basement. And in one of the kitchen cabinets (next to old fire place) is a little pulley wheel inside maybe for coal, like you mentioned? We are in gas heat now with a boiler from 2009. We do have an old framed paper in the basement with instructions for an old boiler not sure if it’s the original or if anyone knows anything about this type of boiler, but I’m curious if so! The one different radiator from the rest is in the kitchen!

pics of all these things attached!

Current boiler:

Kitchen radiator:
old framed boiler instructions in basement:
coal chute:and above is brick (old fireplace?) in basement…and what used to be the kitchen fire place shell is directly upstairs from this. Kitchen fireplace:

Brick remnants in basement below living room where we think maybe the other fireplace was:

pulley wheel in kitchen cabinet:

Jenniferhardin

@reggi hmm interesting! thanks! The baseboards look about 1” thick (not counting shoe moulding)

mattmia2

That pulley looks like the type used for sash weights in a window. Not sure what it is doing in the cabinet.

That broken joist should be sistered.

The kitchen was probably a cook stove in to the chimney rather than a fireplace.

Intplm.

@Jenniferhardin It looks like you have a charming lovely home.
What sort of model home is it? Late victorian?

reggi

@Jenniferhardin And a quick  around on your Richardson & Morgan Cyclone   seems to date from the late 1890's to mid 1915 ish which is interesting... But the last owner could of picked it up at a barn sale years ago and hung it downstairs 

SlamDunk

Very cool stuff! The instructions look original to the house to me.

mattmia2

Those exposed steam risers in your kitchen make it less likely that central heat was original to the house.

PC7060

mattmia2 said:

That broken joist should be sistered.

What Matt said. As soon as possible. 

JUGHNE

How well does this heat the house?

Quiet and fairly quick?

STEAM DOCTOR

@Jenniferhardin Nice house and heating system. Might be good idea to have a steam connoisseur look at you boiler and associated piping. Hard to tell from picture but seems to be piped incorrectly. Could reduce efficiency and functionality of the heating system. 

reggi

As long background has been set... You decide..
Definitely a interesting house as far as Heating Snapshot ( By broad interpretation of evidence )
The Radiators are already logged as Perfection by American Radiator Co.. noted by @Steamhead in their 1897 brochure.. 
Now take a leap that the Richardson & Morgan Boiler Instructions were true to the house that would put the timeline 1890 1912*
Reason Richardson & Morgan incorporated in NY 1890 ( Lawsuit filed by Richardson & Boynton for TM Infringement..BTW they lost) 
Their place of business,(possibly production also) 92 Beekman St NY (As on the Instructions) until 1905 when they moved to 293 Water St NY until they seemingly just disappeared (there was a 1903 Supreme Court order granting the dissolution of the Company assigning Jeremiah Richardson as permanent receiver.
** There was some later advertisement of the Richardson that possibly was bankruptcy stock being offer for sale using original ads depicting the boiler with the Beekman Address that they were at 7-8 years prior..
So there's possibilities and mysteries in that house though I am fairly certain that by 1929 these items wouldn't be readily available so I say the house as most speculate was built 1900 -1910 +/-

Attached are some associated docs
Bottom .pdf 1895 Jeremiah Richardson Patent

Fairly sure on the dates. . I'm doing this on my phone back and forth with old eyes and long arms 🤓

.Wn

Jenniferhardin

@mattmia2 @PC7060 thank you!!! I hadn’t even previously noticed that but after taking a closer look at the rest of them I think I have two or three joists that need to be sistered! I’m going to get that taken care if asap! Appreciate you pointing it out!

Jenniferhardin

@reggi super interesting history on the Richardson & Morgan boiler!!! Thank you so much for your time and pulling this info together! Wow these ads and articles are so cool! I’m very fascinated on the history! And I would agree I think that’s probably a more accurate date range for our house! Thank you again! I appreciate you very much!

reggi

Even odder is that they moved to Water St in 1905 and either continued using the same advertising merchandise they had already purchased ( Due to the dissolution order of the court) with the Beekman St (like yours) until the latest I saw was 1911..
There was a obscure story about Richardson getting conned out of Corporate Funds by a Southern Confidence Man which was prior to the 1903 Court Order which may of led to their demise but that's only speculation without further research..

It does seem as the house was equipped with some of the Newest Items on the Market and that 1900 is looking more likely from what you have... The owner originally must of been a successful person..

But anyway ..as mentioned... Can we have a better look at this from a full floor to ceiling getting it as much as you can from 8-12' back? 
It looks a bit .  Unique .. the arrows are just for emphasis

mattmia2

Oh the near boiler piping is very wrong. If it doesn't bang or gurgle or spit water out the vents then we will ignore it...

The central heating looks like it was a later addition since the pipes aren't inside the walls.

reggi

@mattmia2
True... there's too many unknowns though I'd have to agree 1928 doesn't seem the build date.....
I guess like you said about boiler working ok..they got some repairs like that joist to do first I'd say... like you said

Jenniferhardin

@reggi @mattmia2 thanks guys! Floor joist sister is underway! I actually found two other joists with some less severe cracking but getting them all sistered to be safe.

here are some other angles of the near boiler piping. Curious any thoughts you have on it! Radiators are pretty quiet! Had some banging after a couple months of use that went away after changing a couple steam valves on the radiators themselves and all has been quiet and seemingly working well since! 🤷🏻‍♀️

I also checked out “Sanborn fire maps” at the recommendation of a friend and actually see my house was recorded on the 1911 map. Still need to look further into the older maps for more info but lots of interesting finds!

mattmia2

A Polk directory also may show your house.