Should I convert to gas heat now?

Robert_25

Stylez777 said:

Robert_25 said:

How much oil do you burn in a heating season?

So interestingly, and I never thought to really check this but I bought the house in August, and had to buy the oil that was left behind so that was roughly 250 gallons, and since I been in the house I've had to order twice which totaled 300 gallons, (i'm due to order again soon). So let say I've used 500 gallons so far, which seem quite low come to think of it (avg of 2.3 gallon per day since I moved in)... House is 1600 sqft. (2000 sqft if you include the basement area)

Alright - lets say you use 700 gallons annually. At $5 per gallon that is $3500. You said NG is $2.25 per therm in your area, which would be about $2200 for the same amount of BTUs as your 700 gallons of oil.

I would call the local gas company and ask for a quote on a conversion burner for your current boiler. You already have the gas line, which is often the biggest obstacle/expense.

ChrisJ

ethicalpaul said:

One thing the OP said way up there caught my eye “fill up now and try to make it through august” I paraphrase 

So that tells me you are getting domestic hot water from your oil boiler. If it wasn’t a no brainer before it sure is considering that IMO

You are going to pay $5 per gallon all summer to heat up your basement with the side effect of heating up a few gallons of water???

get a NG boiler and a heat pump water heater and get that hazardous material tank out of your life

I'll agree with your recommendation but I'd recommend a NG tank heater for domestic.

Jamie Hall

Um. 500 gallons of oil? Wish I could say that. However, let's suppose you could cut your bill in half by switching (unlikely, but for the sake of discussion). That's about one grand. How much will it cost you to switch? How much interest will you lose on the that capital? And then, how many years will it take to pay off? Do Your Math.

SlamDunk

You may not re-coup your "investment" if you look at it as an investment but I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the value of your home will increase after you switch to gas.

Stylez777

ChrisJ said:

ethicalpaul said:

One thing the OP said way up there caught my eye “fill up now and try to make it through august” I paraphrase 

So that tells me you are getting domestic hot water from your oil boiler. If it wasn’t a no brainer before it sure is considering that IMO

You are going to pay $5 per gallon all summer to heat up your basement with the side effect of heating up a few gallons of water???

get a NG boiler and a heat pump water heater and get that hazardous material tank out of your life

I'll agree with your recommendation but I'd recommend a NG tank heater for domestic.

I really appreciate this post because it got me think more about I probably never understood how my current system works, because I am so used to my old house I was in for 12 years. When I turned on the hot water in that house and it ran you would hear the boiler fire and go as long as I need the water. There was no tank.

Now, in this house I have an indirect water tank, which I kind was like oh cool, but never truly understood "how it works" or what it really did for me.

ChrisJ

Stylez777 said:

ChrisJ said:

ethicalpaul said:

One thing the OP said way up there caught my eye “fill up now and try to make it through august” I paraphrase 

So that tells me you are getting domestic hot water from your oil boiler. If it wasn’t a no brainer before it sure is considering that IMO

You are going to pay $5 per gallon all summer to heat up your basement with the side effect of heating up a few gallons of water???

get a NG boiler and a heat pump water heater and get that hazardous material tank out of your life

I'll agree with your recommendation but I'd recommend a NG tank heater for domestic.

I really appreciate this post because it got me think more about I probably never understood how my current system works, because I am so used to my old house I was in for 12 years. When I turned on the hot water in that house and it ran you would hear the boiler fire and go as long as I need the water. There was no tank.

Now, in this house I have an indirect water tank, which I kind was like oh cool, but never truly understood "how it works" or what it really did for me.

Your boiler is heating your domestic hot water indirectly via that tank.
So instead of a flame under the tank, the system pumps really hot water from your boiler through it, to heat the water you use at your sink. The water from the boiler is isolated from the water you use at the sink though, they aren't mixed.


Paul really likes the heat pump water heaters.
I don't and I have no interest in them at this time.

Who's right? I think I am, but I really can't give any evidence why at this time.

SlamDunk

My brother was considering a heat pump water heater and was trying to convince me it was worth it for the savings plus it connects to wi-fi which gives him additional capabilities-that I never felt I needed for a hot water heater.

I asked him, 'if there is a problem, who will you call? a refrigeration guy? An electrician, A plumber? Or, The Geek Squad?'

He said- probably all 4.

ethicalpaul

ChrisJ said:

Paul really likes the heat pump water heaters.
I don't and I have no interest in them at this time.

Who's right? I think I am, but I really can't give any evidence why at this time.

that's because you've never tried a heat pump water heater. If you ever do then you will have some evidence one way or the other

But if HP water heaters didn't exist, I'd still convert to NG

Jamie Hall

ethicalpaul said:

ChrisJ said:

Paul really likes the heat pump water heaters.
I don't and I have no interest in them at this time.

Who's right? I think I am, but I really can't give any evidence why at this time.

that's because you've never tried a heat pump water heater. If you ever do then you will have some evidence one way or the other

But if HP water heaters didn't exist, I'd still convert to NG

For what it's worth -- one application with which I am quite familiar has a bank of the things -- 6, I think -- serving showers. Powered by a very large scale solar PV array. Works splendidly well. On the other hand, one of the properties I care for had one (note: had); it was a residence with several bathrooms and often a number of guests, and it simply couldn't keep up, even using the electric resistance heat. Went back to a 32 gallon oil fired Bock, which works just fine. So it depends on the application!

ethicalpaul

If they couldn't keep up even with resistance heat I would say they were undersized for the application--a bed and breakfast sounds like? Where everyone gets up at about the same time and takes a luxurious shower? And this was a single unit meant for a family? You're right, the application does matter, but in your case it sounds like it was set up to fail. I think we're talking single family residences here in this thread.

And I mean no disrespect on this topic to anyone but I hate to see a good product misrepresented.

Jamie Hall

No, @ethicalpaul , not a B&B -- just a rather odd residence (and owner, but don't quote me). And it was seriously undersized for the application. It was an 80 gallon Rheem. I'm not knocking the unit at all In my humble opinion, a heat pump water heater, properly sized for the application, is a very good option -- certainly far superior to a similarly sized straight electric one in almost all situations.

You should know me by now! I will recommend whatever seems to be the best system for the application -- I play no favourites.

Bill123

Hi,

I read most of this thread and found some useful info.

We are in So'east CT with a fairly new Buderus, high-performance boiler feeding 4 zones, domestic water tank for the main house, first floor for 1400 SF main house, small basement zone (rarely used), and 700 SF garage loft apartment with cathedral ceiling.

Oil is approaching 4 bucks a gallon but propane is a dollar less. We have a 125-pound propane tank outside and a 275-gallon oil tank in the basement.

We can add another propane tank outside and change the Buderus burner to propane, but is that smart, and will it save money?

Propane is 33% less for gallon, but oil gives nearly 45% more Btu's per gallon?

So, what to do? Propane also powers a 5 burner gas cooktop and fireplace gas log.

We are trying to determine if it makes sense to add a propane tank and convert the boiler to that, which will probably have more stable prices than oil going forward???

We also have a portable 7000-watt generator for standby power. It rolls out from the walkout basement door, I fill up the gas, and electric start and plug into the house. It can also work on propane, but we lose power so seldom that we have not plumbed it to the propane yet. The generator runs everything except the clothes dryer, wall oven, and 3-Ton Mitsubishi split system we added after the generator panel was added when we moved in 3 years ago. Mostly used for A/C, but also has a heating option.

Thanks for any thoughts and-or suggestions!!

Bill Foster, Deep River, CT

Jamie Hall

Propane and oil tend to move pretty much in parallel, and you are quite right about the relative heating value of each -- which makes staying with oil your best choice.

Cokomo

We installed 5 Mits mini splits last year primarily for ac but liked the option of heat in case Biden got his way and phased out oil. Our state, MA has done everything possible to discourage oil heat by means of high rebates for heat pumps and removing rebates on oil fired products. 0% financing ended this year on oil fired boilers only. When home heating oil jumped this year, we decided to turn off boiler and only use the minis. The electric bill quadrupled and we missed the even warmth of oil heat. The one month without oil ended and the 33 year old Peerless is working flawlessly @ around 77- 80% efficiency. Gave up on trying to get an EK boiler because dealers come by but don't provide quotes( multiple dealers). Have a Rheem hybrid water heater so we were looking @ boiler only, but also would consider boiler and a tank for cold weather months. Never want to be without oil for heat. Hoping things change in 2024.

BillTex

Stylez777 said:

bburd said:

You could probably have a gas conversion burner put in that existing boiler for a lot less money than you were quoted. I expect the original quote is to change the boiler to one designed for gas fuel. A conversion burner will be at least as efficient, possibly a bit more so. Carlin EZ-gas is one model. Riello makes a similar one.

Thanks for the tip, didn't even know that was a thing. Is there any cons of doing this over fully replacing the oil furnace with a new gas version? Obviously price, but any safety concerns or other things that I'd have to worry or be concerned about?

We had similar situation and went with conversion burner the last time oil spike to > $5/gal. ( 8-10 yrs ago?).
Was well worth the minimal cost to convert.
The Tech left the old oil burner and (empty) tank with the suggestion that if they ever start giving oil away he could switch us back to oil in 15 mins.
Of course that never happened.
I say go for it.

Voyager

Often questions like this have no clear-cut, easy answer. I think the current prices are a bubble due to a number of things, but with Biden in office and clearly wanting to end petroleum use, the price may stay high for a long time.

I suspect NG will be more price stable and more available longer term. Why do I think that? Because many power plants have switched from coal to NG and fewer and fewer run on oil. This likely means NG will be available and relatively affordable for a long time as very high gas prices would shoot electricity through the roof and I think there are enough voters who use electricity where that would be politically untenable. The number of voters who use fuel oil is probably pretty small nationally. https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/electricity-in-the-us.php

The harder question is the payback period. If you can do a fuel conversion of your current system, that probably would ensure a reasonably short payback period. If you have to replace the boiler, then it is probably a very long payback. I am sure much depends on where you live. I live in PA and NG is widely used in my area and almost nobody uses oil as it is very expensive compared to gas, not sure how it compares to propane. Propane is the second most widely used fuel, but costs a fair bit more than NG and you have the hassle of scheduling refills as with oil. It is hard to beat the convenience and reliability of NG. No tanks to fill and possible leak and I have never had a gas outage in 40+ years of using gas.

Good luck with your analysis, but I would tend to agree with those who said wait for a few months and see what happens as knee-jerk decisions seldom pan out over time. If fuel oil stays high until the end of summer, then a conversion may make sense. Use the item to investigate options such as fuel conversion vs boiler replacement so that you are as well-informed as possible when the time comes to make the call.

palmafas

compare 2, two family homes i own

the gas property the total gas bill for baseboard heating and 50gallon water heater is aroung $350 per month this winter (Dec/Jan/Feb) coldest months in NY.

oil i filled it up $500 last August, $600 at the end of december, and $800 at the end of February.
it seems to be basically the same as far as the money involved b/c oil i am not counting in the gas bill i had for Sept/oct/ & nov which was around $120-$150 per month.

your upgrade would mostly be b/c you want to have gas and not have a big oil tank anymore and also you may be able to get a more energy efficient unit.

ChrisJ

Cokomo said:

We installed 5 Mits mini splits last year primarily for ac but liked the option of heat in case Biden got his way and phased out oil. Our state, MA has done everything possible to discourage oil heat by means of high rebates for heat pumps and removing rebates on oil fired products. 0% financing ended this year on oil fired boilers only. When home heating oil jumped this year, we decided to turn off boiler and only use the minis. The electric bill quadrupled and we missed the even warmth of oil heat. The one month without oil ended and the 33 year old Peerless is working flawlessly @ around 77- 80% efficiency. Gave up on trying to get an EK boiler because dealers come by but don't provide quotes( multiple dealers). Have a Rheem hybrid water heater so we were looking @ boiler only, but also would consider boiler and a tank for cold weather months. Never want to be without oil for heat. Hoping things change in 2024.

To be clear,
I prefer radiant forms of heat and I use natural gas for a lot of things.

That said,
Oil isn't any hotter or warmer than any other forms of heat and you telling us your electric bill quadrupled doesn't really say anything either. For example if it was normally $50 per month and went to $200 but you would have spent $150 on oil, there's no difference.

Cokomo

It's a matter of preference. We prefer fhw oil heat over electric. When oil and gas go up, electricity does also. We pay 10.49 cents per kWh fixed but the delivery charge is based on oil prices and fluctuates. Normal winter electric bill is $200. This Jan/Feb (1 mo bill) was $800+ and we were less comfortable. The money difference was negligible and not worth giving up the typical comfort oil heat provides. JMO

Voyager

How does oil provide more comfort than electric or gas heat?

Erin Holohan Haskell

Just a reminder of site rules. Please avoid politics in your comments. Thank you.

Jamie Hall

Voyager said:

How does oil provide more comfort than electric or gas heat?

It doesn't. What does matter is how is the power from your energy source (oil, gas, electric, sun, demented hamsters, whatever) get delivered to your space -- warm air, warm radiator, baseboard, warm floor, warm ceiling -- whatever. What often happens is that people tend to equate a particular energy source with a particular delivery means, which is a false equation.

OuterCapeOilguy

Before spending a considerable sum of money necessary to do the conversion, I would strongly consider spending that money tightening up your house to make better use of the heat you have now. Once that is done, a competent oil heat contractor may find that it is possible to reduce the firing rate of your burner, or as someone else on here suggested replace your oil burner with a gas conversion burner such as the Carlin EZ-Gas. (consider the fact that natural gas prices have skyrocketed along with oil prices, and if America steps up its export of natural gas this trend would likely continue). Nevertheless, the first step would be improved windows (the largest source of heat loss in most houses) and improved insulation. Whether you afterwards decide to keep the oil burner or replace it with a conversion burner, I can see no gain by replacing the boiler. Of course, you could replace the boiler with one of today’s ultra high efficiency “wall hung“ boilers – but they will never last anywhere near as long as a quality cast-iron boiler.

ChrisJ

OuterCapeOilguy said:

Before spending a considerable sum of money necessary to do the conversion, I would strongly consider spending that money tightening up your house to make better use of the heat you have now. Once that is done, a competent oil heat contractor may find that it is possible to reduce the firing rate of your burner, or as someone else on here suggested replace your oil burner with a gas conversion burner such as the Carlin EZ-Gas. (consider the fact that natural gas prices have skyrocketed along with oil prices, and if America steps up its export of natural gas this trend would likely continue). Nevertheless, the first step would be improved windows (the largest source of heat loss in most houses) and improved insulation. Whether you afterwards decide to keep the oil burner or replace it with a conversion burner, I can see no gain by replacing the boiler. Of course, you could replace the boiler with one of today’s ultra high efficiency “wall hung“ boilers – but they will never last anywhere near as long as a quality cast-iron boiler.

Have they?

cgutha

I am running propane with no option of converting to NG. I started converting to off peak electric last fall. Hope to have the conversion complete by summer. (Waiting on the electrician to hook me to the meter.)
either way the price is going up.

I went with electric water heat for many reasons. one is the chimney. drilling through my rock foundation is not desirable. Given the guy before me installed a 300 kva three phase Delta transformer outside my back porch, I have lots of electric. Last year I brought the three-phase into the house, now that panel becomes off peak.
however, if everyone goes off peak, the advantage is lost, so go NG

Boon

@cokomo said

When oil and gas go up, electricity does also. We pay 10.49 cents per kWh fixed but the delivery charge is based on oil prices and fluctuates. Normal winter electric bill is $200.

Our bill was 4x, too, but our per kwh cost decreased [overall, including fixed cost]. I find electricity cost is incredibly stable compared to oil, gas, or propane. In fact, last month was the lowest price per kwh I have paid since 2019 [but I used a lot of kilowatts].

Seems to me it is hard to beat the per million BTU cost & price stability that a heat pump & electricity provide. *I'm not commenting on how that heat is delivered.

Albany Chris

Surprised by a lot of the opinions raised here, I think this thread attracts a lot of everyday people who think what they are doing is right and want to validate that. Throwing in my opinions:
- Look to the answers raised by the professionals here and try to sort out those based on facts vs preference. Even professionals sometimes have unsupported biases.
- Where I live ( upstate NY) switching from oil to natural gas is, and always has been, a financial no brainer. Even if you won't be in the house long enough to cover the cost of the conversion your resale value will be significantly higher. Getting rid of the oil tank as part of it is important for resale. The state / gas utilities often have financing programs to lower your cost or they finance it so you actually save more each month than your payments for the conversion.
- On conversion vs replacement - the replacement will have higher efficiency, so the longer you are there the more replacement will make sense. Run the numbers on savings with the higher efficiency vs the extra cost. You will also get more resale value out of the replacement but its hard to quantify that.
- If you do energy efficient improvement you may be able to get a smaller unit (less $) in addition to saving fuel. Read more at Green Building Advisor about priorities / payback. Air sealing the attic penetrations and more attic insulation generally have the highest payback. New windows never have a payback period that makes sense.
- IF you haven't already, read the articles here and at GBA about finding a competent reputable installer who sizes your equipment correctly, not just assumes your current boiler is the right size.

gunn308

I am not a professional in this field but I maintain 2 buildings for our church. The church has 2- HBSmith series 19 -7 section boilers set up for steam with powerflame dual fired Oil /LNG burners which run about 85% combustion efficiency on oil and 92% on gas and the other building has 2- 200,000 BTU condensing LNG gas boilers that modulate down to 20% on one boiler with the combustion efficiency at 93-94%. These replaced an old Mills 25 steam boiler that HB Smith would not approve the conversion to gas on. Yes there is some savings from oil/gas conversion but cleaning costs have gone down dramatically. The tubes on the series 17s haven't been brushed for 5 years with no rise in stack temp compared to install/conversion to LP in 2014.

Labenaqui

From my 65 years in Process Engineering & Hydronics, let me offer a systematic approach:
1. Fuel Selection: Hydrocarbon energy predominates and will in the U.S. for the foreseeable future. We have six years (minus the current one) of data indicating #2 Fuel Oil beats NatGas under the following guidelines in our New England Region:
a. Three-pass Oil Heating Appliance with Delta-T Distribution Management.
b. Participation in a Fuel Co-Op Purchase Program!
NOTE: NatGas & Electricity are Distributed Fuels (pipes & wires) vs. Oil, Propane, Wood, Coal, etc. as Delivered Fuels. Your Service Charge Multiplier must be factored (NG is above X2 locally).
Use a Heating Cost Comparator to "play the numbers". http://www.nhclimateaudit.org/calculators.php
"A rising tide lifts all boats" applies to heating fuels.
2. Structure Heating Improvements: Infiltration, Cap, Wall, Sill Insulation, Millwork Upgrades (watch the paybacks closely though). A Heat Loss Calculation is paramount to any improvements.
3. Existing Oil System Improvements:
a. "Intelligent" Cold Start Aquastat Operation: Hydrolevel 3250-Plus Upgrade.
b. Delta-T ECM Hydronic Distribution: Taco VT2218 Dedicated System Circulator Upgrade (up to 175KBTUH?).
c. DHW Generation: Hydronically supplied programmable IWH (Indirect Water Heater).
The latter we have extracted from our Patented Hydronic Heating Appliance.
As for the future, our money is on Nuclear LFTR Generated Electricity. Run the numbers .....

tocker

Two cents as a homeowner I think conversion, as many have already commented, would be based on reasons other than price - cost savings. The cost of upgrading vs savings calcs make my brain hurt. My vote is yea, just for the convenience, security and quite possibly higher efficiency. I wouldn't want to mess around with oil deliveries and I wouldn't want to be concerned with a leaky tank at any point down the road. As I get older, my goal is to eliminate maintenance headaches whenever I have work done.

Regardless, as it seems you are doing, in this environment, you must plan ahead. Even after some good advice here (Big thanks Jamie Hall, John Siegenthaler (Modern Hydronics) et al) on how to spec/install a radiant system, finding a reputable contractor to "help" commission it took over 2 years where I live. Buying the boiler alone took several months...and still it wasn't sized appropriately because that would have taken even longer. I'm not Carnac The Magnificent, but if current labor trends continue, I think finding a contractor with experience on residential oil fired boilers will be much more difficult.

Voyager

Jamie Hall said:

Voyager said:

How does oil provide more comfort than electric or gas heat?

It doesn't. What does matter is how is the power from your energy source (oil, gas, electric, sun, demented hamsters, whatever) get delivered to your space -- warm air, warm radiator, baseboard, warm floor, warm ceiling -- whatever. What often happens is that people tend to equate a particular energy source with a particular delivery means, which is a false equation.

Where do I find those demented hamsters? 😁

joea99

Intrigued by the carlin ez gas pro, went on their site, where the intro video stated they offered factory preset units for particular boilers. But could not find that list anywhere.

Anyone know?

robertfromnj

Your furnace has a Beckett burner, right? Beckett makes a bolt-up gas conversion. It has an official Weil-Mclain part number. If there isn't one specifically for your S-series, betcha the WM would work fine. You're in for a grand. Nothing else has to change.

joea99

robertfromnj said:

Your furnace has a Beckett burner, right? Beckett makes a bolt-up gas conversion. It has an official Weil-Mclain part number. If there isn't one specifically for your S-series, betcha the WM would work fine. You're in for a grand. Nothing else has to change.

Yes, Burnham V8 Hot Water boiler

Kickstand55

I've seen it a few times here, Keep the boiler and install a gas gun burner. Don't get rid of the oil burner just in case things change.
You can stockpile oil to a degree. The fuel will need to be treated with a biocide and sludge maintenance product. The only catch is if your fuel tank is considered abandoned without being used should something go afoul.
I have done some conversions here in Cow Hampshire. So far, so good.

Steamhead

gunn308 said:

.... and the other building has 2- 200,000 BTU condensing LNG gas boilers that modulate down to 20% on one boiler with the combustion efficiency at 93-94%. These replaced an old Mills 25 steam boiler that HB Smith would not approve the conversion to gas on.

Condensing boilers on a steam system? Don't think so..............

Steamhead

Albany Chris said:

..... On conversion vs replacement - the replacement will have higher efficiency, so the longer you are there the more replacement will make sense. Run the numbers on savings with the higher efficiency vs the extra cost. You will also get more resale value out of the replacement but its hard to quantify that.

That depends on what you're comparing. A good wet-base oil-fired boiler will show a thermal efficiency (DOE or Gross Output as a percentage of Input) up to 6% better than a typical atmospheric gas boiler. You can see this in the manufacturers' published ratings.

MarkMurf

Grew up in a fuel oil/heating company. I have retrofit residential/commercial & industrial burners into existing water/steam boilers and furnaces. Worked for the old Bell Telephone Co
as a building equipment mechanic/boiler operator. Worked for the Boiler Makers Union as a burner tech. Worked as a heating tech for four P&H firms. Have had my own heating contracting business for years now. In short, I've been a lifelong heating g man .⁰ I make an honest effort at keeping my customer's best interests first and foremost. And that includes serviceability, dependability and efficiency. I am old school . Never one to jump on the latest technology. Let's see how it does first . Stick with what works . But comes a point when products prove themselves . A stainless steel, modulating, counterflow, gas boiler for the heating and an on demand gas domestic water heater has been my call for the last few years. I have gone this route with great results and satisfied customers. And the utility savings is a big plus in each and every case. Some people use 'combi' units which make the heat and the domestic hot water. I like separate units . This way if one goes down you haven't lost heat and hot water . That is this heating man's recommendation . And my dad is rolling in his grave listening to me recommend natural gas . But that is what I would do in my own home .

Gilmorrie

Fuel prices are very unstable right now. I would wait and revisit this question in a year or so.

hpap

In 2000 when I bought my newly constructed 2000 sqft   house it was hot air / propane, I immediately replaced furnace with a Lennox 90 % furnace, and still  used $600 in propane a month.

In 2001 I installed a buderus oil boiler with water coil in plenum, and a indirect hot water tank. Oil was 90 something cents a gallon. 

I burned 800 gallon s of oil per year for heat / hot water. 

In 2007 ( last time oil prices starting to soar ) nat gas finally became available, I changed to a buderus wall hung gb142 boiler,  over the years added 1200 sqft,  added buderus radiator s, radiant heat in great room. My current annual cost is about $2400 dollars. 

The gb boiler is still going strong, indirect tank replaced in 2020. 

Also added a Heatpump water heater in garage in 2019,  pre heat water and primary idea was to cool garage in summer. 

Huge  advantage, I did all the work myself, the savings easily covering costs of equipment so my pay back was fast.