Motion activated, stand alone Thermostats needed

Homesteader

Hello,

Can someone suggest sources for or configurations for motion activated, programmable thermostats, without requiring a interface to a ‘energy management system’ or a smartphone app ?

I manage several multi tenant, open floor plan, 3000 sf houses.  The residents don’t pay for heat, expect 70F inside temp and will not manage a thermostat but can be gone for long periods of 4hrs-days.   The  heating is hydronic with cast iron boilers.  

After receiving some stunning gas bills, I’ve concluded that in some spaces,  we need motion activated, programmable thermostats that will automatically adjust the heat.   

It would be ideal if additional  motion sensors could be connected to each thermostat  so as to pick up activity in spots that are not necessarily good places for thermostats ex entrance door areas. 

So far what I have found are complete energy management systems but I want to limit complexity to a single , programmable thermostat that will manage one heating zone.  

Does this stand-alone, type of thermostat exist ?

Thanks a lot. 

Jamie Hall

much as I dislike them, what's the matter with a Nest? or an Ecobee?

ratio

I just found out yesterday that the Honeywell T10 thermostat (& possibly others?) will accept a wireless indoor sensor that has a motion detector. I haven't actually used one yet, but it might be something to look at.

AFAIK, while they are a smart stat, they don't require the internet for operation. It's possible the app is needed for complete setup though.

ChrisJ

Motion activated thermostats with cast iron hydronic heat.

That's going to be fun.

Homesteader

Thanks for the tip re the Honeywell T9 & T10 thermostats with the “smart room sensors”.  Unlike the Ecobee and Nest, the Honeywell sensors seem to have motion detection ability.

can I assume that a single T9/10 thermostat can controls one zone valve only ?

Thanks

ChrisJ

Homesteader said:

Thanks for the tip re the Honeywell T9 & T10 thermostats with the “smart room sensors”.  Unlike the Ecobee and Nest, the Honeywell sensors seem to have motion detection ability.

can I assume that a single T9/10 thermostat can controls one zone valve only ?

Thanks

I'm pretty sure you can assume that, yes.

But you should also expect these zones not to warm up very fast. They're going to be slow to cool and then take hours to warm back up. In the process, they're going to overheat, causing more loss and angry tenants that were cold ever since they got home from work and are now sweating trying to get to sleep due to the overshoot.

The end result will be angry tenants and likely very little if any energy savings.

Homesteader

Let me give an example of where this would be a fitting solution: 

….the basement floor of one building has three rooms that are used for a woodshop: machine room, assembly room, finishing room. These are used once or twice daily for 15 minutes and maybe once a month for a 3 hour period. The thermostat has been kept at 70F 24/7 . The Uus of a T9/10 with a motion sensor and a simple program would probably improve our current  situation.

The problem is that we can’t count on people to turn down the thermostat when they are done in the woodshop and thus automation is the only answer. 

Jamie Hall

Not a completely uncommon problem. However, using a room occupancy or motion sensor approach will only work with a rapid response system. In the example you cite, for instance, a system which has a response time of more than just a few minutes would be completely useless.

Even forced hot air cannot respond that fast, although it is the only type of heating system which could even come close. The heating system with which you are working -- hot water with cast iron radiators -- has a minimum response time on the order of an hour.

I do not wish to sound blunt, bur what you are proposing simply will not do anything like what you want it to.

What you need -- and what will work well -- is direct radiation gas or electric, such as these: https://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/cat1;ft_heaters;ft_infrared_heaters.html

As you note, they can be either gas or electric fired, and they can -- obviously -- be controlled by room occupancy or motion sensing systems.

There would, of course, be something to be said for maintaining some low level of hydronic heat in the spaces -- say holding at 50 or 55 F -- but don't even think of trying to bring it up to something more comfortable in the time frame you are quoting.

Homesteader

I left out an important point:  we actually prefer that the system doesn’t respond to the quick visit of less than 60 minutes.  If someone is in the shop long enough (say an hour), the room will warm up, but it will take an hour and that is acceptable. 

We are primarily looking for an automatic “turn-down” thermostat, which when activity is no longer detected it will always return to 55-60F.  Even if the thermostat setting were to be over-ridden and the heat manually turned up to say 72F, we would like the setting to return to 55-60F after the person left and the rooms remain empty for the next 3 days. 

Jamie Hall

Most programmable thermostats will do that. They have the option to manually override the setting -- how that is done varies with the thermostat -- and then, at the beginning of the next programmed interval they drop back to the program they've been set to. The problem, of course, is that if you allow people to manually override, most of them don't have any way to prevent that privilege level from fiddling with the program..

ratio

To add to Br. Jamie's reply, the Honeywell 8000 series (& certainly other) can be locked in such a way that the temperature can be changed but the program can't be overridden, with the exact results you require. At the end of the modified program interval, everything reverts back to the program until it's overridden again. I actually use one in this manner. The thermostat is set to 55° at 7 PM, I never have to worry about forgetting to set it back down when I leave.

HVACNUT

Typical thermostats give you 4 program periods per day. Does any thermostat offer more? Manually changing set temperature will only do so until the next program period. Then it will revert back. Even with 4, if you dedicate the "sleep" program to 55° from 5 PM to 8 AM, you've got three more time program periods to fill 9 hours. Turn off the adaptive intelligent recovery if you're feeling froggy. 

JakeCK

I just want to point out you are going to have people changing that thermostat everytime they come in and even if they're in there for an hour and a half will never see the temperature they set it to. Maybe just use a placebo, like a fake thermostat? Lol

Ironman

“I left out an important point:  we actually prefer that the system doesn’t respond to the quick visit of less than 60 minutes.  If someone is in the shop long enough (say an hour), the room will warm up, but it will take an hour and that is acceptable.”

I don’t understand what you’re conceiving.

What would be the purpose of turning up the heat when it would take an hour to get it to the set point and then the occupant would leave at the end of that hour?

Also, there’s no way a hydronic system will go from 55* to 70* in an hour.

wmgeorge

I have seen mechanical timers with max settings of one or two hours in use for a 75 degree setpoint simple t'stat. Work shop user comes in an cranks it over to the max.... 2 hours and when he leaves the timer turns off and its back to the preset Tstat of say 60 degrees. Oh and lockable covers on both the Tstats.

JUGHNE

There used to be temp heat tstats for construction sites.
Fixed at maybe 60 degrees.

That with a crank up timer across those terminals could give you minimum temp.
The 30-60 minute timer would be closed for that time period providing the heat call.

Hopefully no one would crank on the timer if room was 75 or so.

Simple and cheap.

Homesteader

Thanks for all your helpful comments and suggestions. The solution to my situation/need is then:

 - a programmable thermostat
 - program should be 55F continuous
 - partial lock-out is used, permitting temp override without a password 
 - schedule change requires a password 
 - manual override lasts only till next period then the temp setting is automatically reset to the schedule 
 - no activity sensor required 
 

hot_rod

I would go with the Ecobees. You and select others could monitor and control them via the ap. They can be set to notify you or the thermostat “lords” if the temperatures exceed the intended range. All the stats you install show up in a map of their location

Head over to Ecobee and watch some videos of how they get applied for situations like yours