Mini Split for keeping a garage above freezing?
Most I've seen have a minimum in the low 60's or higher. I'm looking for an economical way to heat and cool a two car garage. Gas isn't an option, I'm not willing to run a gas line the 70ft from my house to it, and while resistance heating would work it'd be expensive. This seems like an area where a heat pump would excel.
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veteransteamhvac said:Yes, install a mini split. Have it properly sized for your space. You will be happy at whatever temperature you ask it to maintain in the space.0
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Most have a minimum indoor temperature, 50 or 60 sounds right.0
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The issue isn't sizing, the issue is most mini splits do not allow a set point as low as I would want to set it for heatingJakeCK said:veteransteamhvac said:Yes, install a mini split. Have it properly sized for your space. You will be happy at whatever temperature you ask it to maintain in the space.
My Mitsubishi will not go lower than 63 or so. Insulate your garage and door.Old retired Commercial HVAC/R guy in Iowa. Master electrician.0 -
Probably you can just use an external thermostat that calls for heat at 40. Just make sure the unit allows for thermostat wires.Personally I keep my garage heated to 45-50.0
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It’s the same as trying to run your A/C at 40* outside air. There not designed for it. Can it be done yes but a lot of re-engineering required.0
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The min. heat function on Fujitsu keeps temperature at 50f, however the blower on indoor unit will always be on, otherwise the unit cannot sense the indoor temperature.0
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aggravating. I was hoping for an off the shelf solution out there somewhere. Wanting to heat a garage to a just above freezing temperature can't be that uncommon.
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Most I've seen have a minimum in the low 60's or higher. I'm looking for an economical way to heat and cool a two car garage. Gas isn't an option, I'm not willing to run a gas line the 70ft from my house to it, and while resistance heating would work it'd be expensive. This seems like an area where a heat pump would excel.
I'm interested in hearing if you find one! That COP would be amazing.
These must be some valuable paints, chemicals and batteries!0 -
Hot_water_fan said:These must be some valuable paints, chemicals and batteries!0
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pecmsg said:JakeCK said:aggravating. I was hoping for an off the shelf solution out there somewhere. Wanting to heat a garage to a just above freezing temperature can't be that uncommon.0
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sunlight33 said:The min. heat function on Fujitsu keeps temperature at 50f, however the blower on indoor unit will always be on, otherwise the unit cannot sense the indoor temperature.
I wonder how much energy it would actually use to keep it above 50... I wouldn't supposed Fujitsu mini splits have a warm weather shut down do they? Once insulated I would bet the garage would easily stay above freezing until it got down into the mid 20's for an extended period.
I'm reading the listed features and functions on the Fujitsu halcyon model. I'm liking the third party device control for home automation. I could make this sing and dance to what ever song I want possibly.0 -
Mitsubishi has the PACsomethingsomething-US thermostat adapter that'll allow a standard stat to control a mini split. I doubt you'll find something designed to operate with a 50° indoor temp, but there's a decent chance it'll work without failing too obnoxiously quickly.0
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I don't know where you live but I suspect after you insulate your garage you will not need much heat to keep it above freezing. Might be a good idea to calculate the heat loss of the garage to get an idea how much heat you will need. As mentioned earlier by sunlight33 your best bet might be some type of electric resistance heat with a thermostat. Unless you need the AC function as well you are not likely to have a good return on investment over electric resistance.0
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DJD775 said:I don't know where you live but I suspect after you insulate your garage you will not need much heat to keep it above freezing. Might be a good idea to calculate the heat loss of the garage to get an idea how much heat you will need. As mentioned earlier by sunlight33 your best bet might be some type of electric resistance heat with a thermostat. Unless you need the AC function as well you are not likely to have a good return on investment over electric resistance.0
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DJD775 said:I don't know where you live but I suspect after you insulate your garage you will not need much heat to keep it above freezing. Might be a good idea to calculate the heat loss of the garage to get an idea how much heat you will need. As mentioned earlier by sunlight33 your best bet might be some type of electric resistance heat with a thermostat. Unless you need the AC function as well you are not likely to have a good return on investment over electric resistance.
One other advantage I thought of is the ability to control humidity. Right now when there is a large swing in temperature it gets really humid in there. Generally happens when it starts off real cool in the morning and quickly warms up outside. Garage stays cool because of the thermal mass and then causes moisture issues. I've actually had tools and shelving rust before because of that.0 -
If the garage was cool, and remained cool but it warmed up outside, how does that cause moisture issues inside? Is infiltration that bad? Humidity issues like that typically happen when it's hot and suddenly cools off.
I also suspect under such conditions (the garage is cool) the minisplit isn't going to do anything for humidity as it's not going to be cooling.
I'm guessing it's a foregone conclusion that if you're not willing to keep the temperature above 40 in the winter you probably won't keep the air conditioning set at 65 in the summer. A typical dehumidifier will do far better under such circumstances.
Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment0 -
Infiltration would be that bad every time the garage door was opened. My garage in Michigan would suffer from this during the shoulder seasons when the garage contents could be significantly cooler than the outside air when I happened to open the garage.
To answer original question, I would think that through creative location of the thermostat you could get the behavior you want even though the system won't let you put the setpoint down that far.NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
As mentioned earlier, do a heat loss calculation on the structure with both your desired minimum indoor temperature (40-45, whatever) and the minimum temp provided by the minisplit you'd like to use. Maybe the difference is not significant, especially if you are installing good insulation. And, consider spending more on better insulation, those dollars pay back every year.0
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Get a simple temperature controller like an Inkbird.
Then go one of two routes:
Connect the minisplit into the 'COLD' output of the controller. You'd need to use a controller with appropriately sized relays based on your minisplit power requirements.
But maybe the minisplit doesn't like to be power cycled that often, or it won't restart after a "power outage", or you just don't want to mess with such large relays.
In this case, connect a small heat source into the 'HOT' output, and tape the minisplit's temperature sensor to this heat source. You want a heat source of roughly 2-4 watts -- just enough to warm up the minisplit's sensor, and make the minisplit think that it is 60F or so. I've used 10 watt resistorspaired with an appropriate ~6V wall wort to get the right amount of warmth.
Then just set the Inkbird "COOL" setpoint to say 45F. When the room temperature reaches 45F, the minisplit's sensor is warmed up to 60F, and it shuts off. If you are working in there and want it warmer, just unplug the Inkbird and the minisplit will operate as normal.
Make sure to set either a large differential or time delay on the Inkbird to avoid short cycling.
Luke
Luke Stodola0 -
lkstdl said:
Get a simple temperature controller like an Inkbird.
Then go one of two routes:
Connect the minisplit into the 'COLD' output of the controller. You'd need to use a controller with appropriately sized relays based on your minisplit power requirements.
But maybe the minisplit doesn't like to be power cycled that often, or it won't restart after a "power outage", or you just don't want to mess with such large relays.
In this case, connect a small heat source into the 'HOT' output, and tape the minisplit's temperature sensor to this heat source. You want a heat source of roughly 2-4 watts -- just enough to warm up the minisplit's sensor, and make the minisplit think that it is 60F or so. I've used 10 watt resistorspaired with an appropriate ~6V wall wort to get the right amount of warmth.
Then just set the Inkbird "COOL" setpoint to say 45F. When the room temperature reaches 45F, the minisplit's sensor is warmed up to 60F, and it shuts off. If you are working in there and want it warmer, just unplug the Inkbird and the minisplit will operate as normal.
Make sure to set either a large differential or time delay on the Inkbird to avoid short cycling.
Luke
There's absolutely no way that would work with a minisplit my friend.
Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment1 -
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ChrisJ said:If the garage was cool, and remained cool but it warmed up outside, how does that cause moisture issues inside? Is infiltration that bad? Humidity issues like that typically happen when it's hot and suddenly cools off. I also suspect under such conditions (the garage is cool) the minisplit isn't going to do anything for humidity as it's not going to be cooling. I'm guessing it's a foregone conclusion that if you're not willing to keep the temperature above 40 in the winter you probably won't keep the air conditioning set at 65 in the summer. A typical dehumidifier will do far better under such circumstances.
My hope is that once I replace the garage doors a lot of those issues will be minimized, lessening the load all the way around. As of right now leaves can blow right under the doors, there is no weather stripping on them.0 -
if someone put twizzlers to my head, I bet one could set up the traditional thermostat adapter (I've never done this) and make it work. Was it designed to do this: noper. Would it work? it might1
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GW said:
if someone put twizzlers to my head, I bet one could set up the traditional thermostat adapter (I've never done this) and make it work. Was it designed to do this: noper. Would it work? it might
Black, cherry or strawberry?
Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment0 -
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pecmsg said:Depending on the make & model it's just not going to like a continuous low temperature and probably shut down on various trouble codes. One thing with minis is Do not try to operate outside of the design envelope.Can you help me understand this? I am not familiar with mini splits. I'm not doubting you -- I just would like to understand the science. What specifically is likely to fail or not work well?Is it an issue with pressure being too high or too low because more heat is pulled off the indoor coil? Would the motor draw too much power?Are we worried about corroding the heat exchanger somehow? Running a furnace or boiler with too low return temperature can cause sustained flue gas condensation, resulting in corrosion and premature failure of the heart exchanger. But the refrigerant in heat pumps is condensing and evaporating constantly, right? Isn't that integral to how they work?Luke Stodola0
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I assume pressure would end up too low.lkstdl said:pecmsg said:Depending on the make & model it's just not going to like a continuous low temperature and probably shut down on various trouble codes.
One thing with minis is Do not try to operate outside of the design envelope.Can you help me understand this? I am not familiar with mini splits. I'm not doubting you -- I just would like to understand the science. What specifically is likely to fail or not work well?Is it an issue with pressure being too high or too low because more heat is pulled off the indoor coil? Would the motor draw too much power?Are we worried about corroding the heat exchanger somehow? Running a furnace or boiler with too low return temperature can cause sustained flue gas condensation, resulting in corrosion and premature failure of the heart exchanger. But the refrigerant in heat pumps is condensing and evaporating constantly, right? Isn't that integral to how they work?
The part that confuses me is both indoor and outdoor coils are using variable speed fans and the unit has an EEV, and I thought even the compressors were variable speed so I would expect it to be able to compensate for an awful lot.......
It's not like a split unit with two fixed speed fans and a fixed orifice.
But maybe 0F outside and 60F inside is already compensating a lot. Or, perhaps even if the hardware can do it, the software wasn't designed to expect it so it won't work regardless.
Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment0 -
lkstdl said:pecmsg said:Depending on the make & model it's just not going to like a continuous low temperature and probably shut down on various trouble codes.
One thing with minis is Do not try to operate outside of the design envelope.Can you help me understand this? I am not familiar with mini splits. I'm not doubting you -- I just would like to understand the science. What specifically is likely to fail or not work well?Is it an issue with pressure being too high or too low because more heat is pulled off the indoor coil? Would the motor draw too much power?Are we worried about corroding the heat exchanger somehow? Running a furnace or boiler with too low return temperature can cause sustained flue gas condensation, resulting in corrosion and premature failure of the heart exchanger. But the refrigerant in heat pumps is condensing and evaporating constantly, right? Isn't that integral to how they work?
As I said operating outside design conditions for extended periods tend to issue trouble codes. Whin i go out to the summer house and turn mine on they'll shut down 2,3 may be 4 times until the building warm's up.
try it, keep us informed.1 -
@pecmsg
I understand what you are saying now. Outside of the indoor design envelope they are troublesome but once they reach and maintain the temperature range they were designed for they work fine. Not really involved too much in this thread but I'm always looking to learn new things. Thanks for clarifying.0
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