"A bit of work in your apartment."

ChrisJ

KC_Jones said:

JUGHNE said:

wmgeorge said:

I seem to remember the Chicago fire being in the 1800's?

Great memory, I don't remember much before 1900.

Omaha has their own addendum to the NEC of no Romex exposed in the basement.

My house would fail miserably with that standard.

I guess our houses were worked on by lesser people than these guys.
I'll go hang my head in shame.

Wonder what's for dinner tonight.

mattmia2

JUGHNE said:

wmgeorge said:

I seem to remember the Chicago fire being in the 1800's?

Great memory, I don't remember much before 1900.

Omaha has their own addendum to the NEC of no Romex exposed in the basement.

So then only where it is concealed and you can't see if it is damaged....

delcrossv

mattmia2 said:

JUGHNE said:

wmgeorge said:

I seem to remember the Chicago fire being in the 1800's?

Great memory, I don't remember much before 1900.

Omaha has their own addendum to the NEC of no Romex exposed in the basement.

So then only where it is concealed and you can't see if it is damaged....

Probably thinking the wall cavity is a "protective enclosure" 🙄

ChrisJ

delcrossv said:

I seem to remember the Chicago fire being in the 1800's?

Great memory, I don't remember much before 1900. Omaha has their own addendum to the NEC of no Romex exposed in the basement.

So then only where it is concealed and you can't see if it is damaged....

Probably thinking the wall cavity is a "protective enclosure" 🙄

To the rest of the world it is for plumbing, wiring etc.

delcrossv

ChrisJ said:

delcrossv said:

mattmia2 said:

JUGHNE said:

wmgeorge said:

I seem to remember the Chicago fire being in the 1800's?

Great memory, I don't remember much before 1900.

Omaha has their own addendum to the NEC of no Romex exposed in the basement.

So then only where it is concealed and you can't see if it is damaged....

Probably thinking the wall cavity is a "protective enclosure" 🙄

To the rest of the world it is for plumbing, wiring etc.



Talking about the Omaha code. That's the only thing that would seem to make sense.



I'd find this worrysome.

ChrisJ

delcrossv said:

delcrossv said:

I seem to remember the Chicago fire being in the 1800's?

Great memory, I don't remember much before 1900. Omaha has their own addendum to the NEC of no Romex exposed in the basement.

So then only where it is concealed and you can't see if it is damaged....

Probably thinking the wall cavity is a "protective enclosure" 🙄

To the rest of the world it is for plumbing, wiring etc.

Talking about the Omaha code. That's the only thing that would seem to make sense. I'd find this worrysome.

You feel that's the fault of NM-B?

I guess all of the improperly piped steamers are the fault of copper pipe. 

ChrisJ

I think we're so far off track I can't even see the original thread.

We need to fix that.

  

delcrossv

No matter how "nice" it's done, it's still exposed cable and quite subject to mechanical damage.

To follow your analogy, if the steam boiler weren't piped in copper, there wouldn't be any sweat joints to fail

Solid_Fuel_Man

Well, now they can drill and tap one of those pipes and get free gas!

I am also amazed at the cleanliness that appears to be in the picture. 

JUGHNE

That would have been such a quick job with CSST....no joints!

wmgeorge

I have been on construction jobs where if the gas fitter did that he would find his pipes in the way of an electricians SawzAll.

ChrisJ

wmgeorge said:

I have been on construction jobs where if the gas fitter did that he would find his pipes in the way of an electricians SawzAll.

Could end up smelly in there.

delcrossv

wmgeorge said:

I have been on construction jobs where if the gas fitter did that he would find his pipes in the way of an electricians SawzAll.

Oops! Sorry dude, it "slipped". 🤣

Could have added excitement if the gas is on....

Jamie Hall

Not quite on the topic of Romex vs. conduit vs. BX type... but that installation reminds me a bit of an old shipbuilding joke: the trades operate on the olympic system. The tradesman who gets to the compartment first gets to run his stuff straight, and everyone else has to work around him. Great if the guy with 12 inch high pressure steam main is quick on his feet, but a little tough if it's sparky with a telephone cable...

MikeL_2

 Pretty impressive, actually; all that work installed, pressure tested, inspected and approved in a few days!

EBEBRATT-Ed

@delcrossv

In 99% of the US romex is run exposed. I don't see an issue. Even in the picture above the romex run through the floor joists is legal. Some would complain that the holes in the floor joists should be drilled mid joist (they should be if possible) and yes the whole thing looks sloppy.

Certainly all the romex dropping to the panel should be secured every 4 1/2' and within 12" of the panel

The code say all work must be "neat & workmanlike". Unfortunately there is no definition for that.

You go to 50 different states you get 100 different answers. What's acceptable in one area may not pass inspection elsewhere.

delcrossv

@EBEBRATT-Ed Just pointing out a possible reason for Omaha's code.
All i can say is would that never fly in Chicago, workmanlike or no. I think every residential basement in Chicagoland has stuff (usually clothes) hanging off conduit runs in the basement- which is why 2 hole straps are preferred by many for horizontal runs.

I'm curious if folks where romex is run exposed if you all see things hanging off romex runs. People being people.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Solid_Fuel_Man

That ugly Romex panel is just that....ugly. However there isn't a real safety Hazzard there. Now if that same panel had 2 nice looking 1.5" EMT stubs out of it, that same number of circuits could be hidden within (against code of course) and the insulation cooking away in there, but it would look better.

Romex is not allowed in some types of buildings, not because it is unsafe, but because the PVC jacket makes toxic fumed when burned. But the plumber can run his PVC pipe in those buildings, but sparky has to run MC or conduit. 

What I don't like about MC is when guys break the jacket and cut it with dykes. Then that sharp piece ends up cutting into one or more of the conductors. We've all seen that. I always use my can-opener on MC cable, and not snap the jacket. 

Robert O'Brien

They can remove it when they electrify the building!

delcrossv

Supposed to use redheads on BX/MC cuts. (or at the very least wrap the ground wire around the cut and wrap around the armor for a few turns)-after you use a "can opener" Keeps the conductors away from the cut edge.

mattmia2

delcrossv said:

Supposed to use redheads on BX/MC cuts. (or at the very least wrap the ground wire around the cut and wrap around the armor for a few turns)-after you use a "can opener" Keeps the conductors away from the cut edge.

No, the anti short bushings are definitely required, you aren't allowed to just wrap the ground around it. Flex really needs to be cut square with a saw so that the shoulder in the fitting will protect the conductors.

mattmia2

delcrossv said:

I'm curious if folks where romex is run exposed if you all see things hanging off romex runs. People being people.

I have definitely seen stuff hanging off of romex. Less common than off of piping, but I have seen it.

delcrossv

@mattmia2 Are you talking Greenfield (cut square) or BX (cut longitudinally)? Two different animals.
Greenfield:

mattmia2

delcrossv said:

@mattmia2 Are you talking Greenfield (cut square) or BX (cut longitudinally). Two different animals.

Greenfiled/flex/whatever the current slang in your region is. I think if I said greenfield in southeast Michigan unless it was an elderly electrician they would look at me funny.

ChrisJ

Isn't Greenfield just mc without wire

delcrossv

ChrisJ said:

Isn't Greenfield just mc without wire

Practically, yes. Code-wise No. They may make 3/8 greenfield, but I've never seen it. 1/2" and up is what's used. Wire fill follows EMT rules.

Solid_Fuel_Man

Greenfield is an old trade name for flexible metallic conduit. Basically MC without conductors in it yes. The red anti-shorts as we call them are not required with a listed fitting which has a nonconductive provision built in for MC. Like the push-in type which is commonly used on MC installations. I've put thousands of them in. 

delcrossv

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

The red anti-shorts as we call them are not required with a listed fitting which has a nonconductive provision built in for MC. Like the push-in type which is commonly used on MC installations. I've put thousands of them in. 

Like these?

Solid_Fuel_Man

delcrossv said:

The red anti-shorts as we call them are not required with a listed fitting which has a nonconductive provision built in for MC. Like the push-in type which is commonly used on MC installations. I've put thousands of them in. 

Like these?

Those are for Greenfeild...or flex...whatever it's called in your area. 


No, these are what I'm talking about

EBEBRATT-Ed

Greenfield code name (flexible metallic conduit) is supposed to be cut straight across. I still cut it on an angle most of the time. Never owned a "can opener" I was taught to cut it with a hacksaw long before can openers were invented and saw no need to carry another tool. Have I ever cut the wires by accident? Of course!!!!

You don't have to use red heads with greenfield because after you cut it your supposed to deburr it. Using red heads with it is fine but not required.

newer BX since 1959 has the aluminum strip. (Stuff before 59 may not have the aluminum strip some call it "rat proof romex") It's not considered a ground wire but reduces the resistance of the armored jacket. Your supposed to use red heads with bx & MC because with wires in it you can't really debur it so the red heads are required. The change was made in 59 because that's when 3 wire grounding receptacles started to be required and the "Rat Proof" romex the ground isn't so good. The house I used to own was built in 55 and the original wire had both types of bx

With BX your supposed to put the red head on and using the aluminum strip to hold the red head in place and winding the strip back over the cable is good practise but not required

One violation I see a lot is when using MC or greenfield with an aluminum jacket you have to use a connector that squeezes the jacket. You can only use a set screw connector on flex with the steel jacket

BX the code calls "armored cable" or type AC cable
MC is just called 'metal clad cable" or MC cable
Liquid tight or sealtight (metal lined) is LFMC liquid tight flexible metal conduit
Plastic sealtight is LFNC liquid tight flexible non metallic conduit

delcrossv

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

Those are for Greenfeild...or flex...whatever it's called in your area. 


No, these are what I'm talking about

Nope. That's a BX connector. But you do need redheads for that one.

Those push in one ways are not popular here. Can't easily take them apart.

This is most common for Greenfield. (does not take a bushing).



Time for dinner!

Solid_Fuel_Man

Are we using BX and MC interchangeably? 

BX is old ungrounded stuff, MC is metal clad and is what is sold now. It has a ground and 2 or more other conductors. 

AC cable has the small aluminum wire which is thr dirty ground and the insulated green copper is the clean ground. Commonly referred to as Hispital cable here. 

ChrisJ

This threads giving me a headache.

Follow NEC and keep your work tidy and your connections tight but not over tight and I'm happy.  I don't live in Chicago and never will so their specific codes don't dictate how I do things.

For example, if you live in Tennessee should you install footings by the rules in Anchorage?  Seriously?

delcrossv

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

Are we using BX and MC interchangeably? 

No one sells ungrounded cable, so the name has been applied to the grounded version.
No one goes into a supplier and asks for 12/2 MC. Probably would elicit a quizzical look from the counterman.  
Must be a regional thing.

JUGHNE

Just to steer this away from giving ChrisJ more headaches, is all that gas?? piping.
This must not be one of those apartment buildings slated for heat pumps.

What does it feed??

mattmia2

ranges would be my guess. maybe gas furnaces.

mattmia2

the thing is much of this steers in to the part of code that says according to manufacture's instructions.

EBEBRATT-Ed

LOL!!