Can you balance a system with no measurable pressure ever?

wmgeorge

Maybe being retired for 15 years has fogged my memory but the Steam discharge from the boiler loops up well above the Main, is reduced in size a lot and I am guessing that old pipe is 4 inch, boiler line is 2 1/2 and then is reduced again. Looks like the fitter wanted to go around the vent pipe but there are other ways.

ChrisJ

wmgeorge said:

Maybe being retired for 15 years has fogged my memory but the Steam discharge from the boiler loops up well above the Main, is reduced in size a lot and I am guessing that old pipe is 4 inch, boiler line is 2 1/2 and then is reduced again. Looks like the fitter wanted to go around the vent pipe but there are other ways.

The riser goes up, and then back down into a drop header. I see no reductions there.
The main then pulls off the header and is smaller than the header.

The intent is for the water to fall back out of the steam and down into the boiler. The header is larger to allow lower velocities to also allow water to fall to the bottom. The main is what it is.

The piping looks correct and better than most.

Dave in QCA

Jells said:

Dave in QCA said:

I'm sorry for coming late and also sorry if I have missed a point in the conversation.
To Me, this sounds like the classical situation of radiators being over vented. I have spent huge amounts of time on a property, trying to figure out why a radiator would never get steam. My mind went to possible clogs in the steam line, and every other possibility that I could think of. Then, I read some comments on a system on this site, I think it might have by the Steamwhiperer, and it was from others too, including Dan. The age old problem, so often overlooked, is over vented radiators.

In the system I was working on, when I went around and very carefully adjusted the Hoffman 1A vents to about what a Hoffman 40 would be (you have to take the screw off and actually look at the hole alignment)
After the venting on ALL of the radiators was slowed down, the system starting working perfectly. The radiator that would NEVER EVER get any steam at all, started heating at the same rate as the rest of the system and the fast radiators were slowed down.

Vent your Mains very fast and your radiators VERY slow.

I'm curious to see how this problem works out.

Thanks Dave. I do understand the concept, but the heart of my argument against venting being the primary problem is that the situation you were in was predicated on the boiler actually shutting down at some point when the thermostat was satisfied. If your boiler ran continuously for days at a time, that problem radiator would eventually have gotten the heat, right?

NO. Your assumption is not correct.

Jells

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@Jells stack temp under 320 is low meaning the boiler is underfired. at about 550 and up I would be wondering if the boiler was sooted on the fireside, scaled up on the water side or over fired and at 650 I would think for sure something is amiss

Well I just read the flue temp at 400. My thermometer on the header says the boiler has been firing continuously the 5 days since Saturday. 

ChrisJ

Jells said:

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@Jells stack temp under 320 is low meaning the boiler is underfired.

at about 550 and up I would be wondering if the boiler was sooted on the fireside, scaled up on the water side or over fired and at 650 I would think for sure something is amiss

Well I just read the flue temp at 400. My thermometer on the header says the boiler has been firing continuously the 5 days since Saturday. 

An older 4000 sqft building and a boiler that's doing 130,000 btu/h input.

I'm not surprised honestly.
Your tenants are about to be really cold again for the next few days.

ethicalpaul

That's good info, but it's strange...it got quite warm here in NJ a couple days ago...no break occurred then?

ChrisJ

ethicalpaul said:

That's good info, but it's strange...it got quite warm here in NJ a couple days ago...no break occurred then?

When a large building drops 20 degrees below it's set point it takes a while to catch up, especially with a lot of masonry and a heating system that's half the size it needs to be.

MaxMercy

I just read through all the comments and someone above made a point that wasn't commented on by anyone which is the one that occurred to me when I first started reading: any chance one or two radiators ARE getting p*ss whistling hot and a tenant is keeping a window open? I'm in a totally different service trade but have been in enough apartments where I was doing service and suffering from heat prostration in the middle of winter when windows were wide open, then going home to my house where we keep the thermo at 64..

I understand OP's constant questioning of the vents, but one thing I learned long ago: there are things which seem counter-intuitive which are in fact reality.

I know nothing about steam, but if I was asking about this problem, I would take the advice to address the venting even if I was convinced it would do no good, then report back with the results. If it doesn't help, it will at least inform the pros that the problem isn't there. Once the pros know this, they can turn their attention to less obvious solutions.

Jells

ChrisJ said:

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@Jells stack temp under 320 is low meaning the boiler is underfired. at about 550 and up I would be wondering if the boiler was sooted on the fireside, scaled up on the water side or over fired and at 650 I would think for sure something is amiss

Well I just read the flue temp at 400. My thermometer on the header says the boiler has been firing continuously the 5 days since Saturday. 

An older 4000 sqft building and a boiler that's doing 130,000 btu/h input. I'm not surprised honestly. Your tenants are about to be really cold again for the next few days.

I'm sure you'll correct me where I have the following wrong. The EDR of the radiators, that have been in this house for generations and was measured by Jstar when he sized the boiler in 2012, has not changed. In fact, of the 14 radiators there is one disconnected and another that appears to have a non-functional valve and no heat flow into it whatsoever no matter what I do.

Others have commented that it appears the BTUs is sufficiently above the EDR, not actually something I'm qualified to judge. I don't know how many BTUs this system was actually set up to burn since it has a variable burner and the boiler does not have a BTU on its plate. Can what we see here be converted to BTUs, and will it tell us anything given the burner is variable?

KC_Jones

You posted an EDR of 343

343 x 240 btu/edr = 82320 this is maximum system output from the radiators

If we then add the typical pick up factor of .33 we get to 109,485 btu

The next calculation is boiler efficiency, which should be about, say 83% (this is a guess based on average steam boiler efficiencies), that would give a needed burner input of 131,909 btu

You clocked the gas meter and I calculated a rate of 130,909 btu, so basically right in line with what is needed.

So here are some more questions, because at this point I still feel not getting steam everywhere is still a venting problem, but with the additional info you posted several of us feel like you might be under radiated.

Has this building always been 4 separate units?
Has there been any floor plan modifications to make it 4 units?
Are you 100% sure there haven't been any radiators removed, ever?

If I was betting I'd say someone split this house up, didn't do it very well, removed radiation, and now you are stuck with what you've got. If the basement mains are original, I'd be looking for missing take offs, capped pipes etc. That might tell the tale of what's going on.

That said, you still have a venting issue. Not heating is either venting, or messed up piping holding water blocking the steam flow.

If you are under radiated, I would not be surprised at all that the boiler runs a lot. The system has no chance. And to be clear, without radiation a bigger boiler will do nothing for additional system output, only more radiators will do that.

Fix the venting, then you might find out what's going on.

wmgeorge

A readable copy of the JPG, this is the rating based on the #2 fuel oil burner, it now has a NG burner. BTW he posted on another Forum that a person who had access to the boiler opened the manual bypass City water and overfilled and over pressured the system.

Jells

tommay said:

So 14 radiators plus piping. Definitely sounds like it's shutting down on low water based on the water level that was shown in the picture.

Except that what I have is the opposite, it never shuts down. It's been firing continuously all week. That artifact at the right end was me messing with putting it on the flue instead of the header.



@KC_Jones I'd be happy to follow you down that rabbit hole, if all the rads were consistently hot when the boiler is firing continuously. But they're not. There was no major changes to radiation or unit config, the only thing I did was remove a husky rad in the 1st fl of the stairwell that seemed a ridiculous waste of energy. As I said above, there's 1 disconnected and one with an apparently a bad valve since even full open with the riser next to it hot and the vent removed it does not heat.

But I can't remove that rad without major surgery as the morons drilled holes in the oak floor for it's feet when that was installed so the spud can't get far enough from the union to let me lift out the rad. I'm going to get a new valve and cut off the old one.

ScottSecor

I said it before and I'll say it again, THE BOILER IS NOT PRODUCING ENOUGH STEAM TO OVERCOME THE LOAD. Could be underfired, could be that the boiler is filthy and only runnig at say 60 or 70 percent efficnecy. Unless your burning coal with a variable firing rate your steam boiler is going to cycle.

Just to compare I'h hoping active members could chime in with how many steam radiators are in their heating systems and what there BTU input is. I bet no one with 14 radiators is only firing at 133,000. For the people that heat with oil, that's a little less than 1.0 gallons per hour (input).

I am not trying to be argumentive, just stating what appears obvious to someone that has worked in many homes and buildings with aprroximately 14 radiators.

Jells

ScottSecor said:

I said it before and I'll say it again, THE BOILER IS NOT PRODUCING ENOUGH STEAM TO OVERCOME THE LOAD. Could be underfired, could be that the boiler is filthy and only runnig at say 60 or 70 percent efficnecy. Unless your burning coal with a variable firing rate your steam boiler is going to cycle.

This is what I've been arguing, that the primary problem is a heat production issue rather than a balancing issue. But the numbers indicate that the 130 BTU should be adequate to get all the rads hot, even without specifying they heat the place. My 9 years of running this building indicate that when the system is working there's enough heat.

EBEBRATT-Ed

You have already clocked the gas meter that show the boiler is doing all it can do. It's firing as much as it can.

The 400 degree stack temp shows the boiler is working and is not over fired and is not sooted or scaled up. If it was you would have a high stack temp. Weather the burner is firing gas or oil does not matter it's the same btu input.

You might call the gas company and find out the btu input of whatever concoction they are selling.

It's possible it is below the standard 1000btu/cubic foot.

It's possible (but not likely) you could be short of btus because of that.

I read most of the above posts and I did not see this question asked or answered but may have missed it.

Is all your piping insulated??

If I am not mistaken you say your connected EDR is 343. The boiler is good for 350 BUT

That is with insulated piping

And the standard pick up factor of 1.33 may not be enough with a large building with extensive piping and (maybe) missing insulation. Dan Holohan recommends 1.50 pick up factor on some jobs with extensive piping


Don't forget, the boiler output of 350 EDR is a LAB rating

Things in the field being what they are don't expect to get that output all the time.

Manufacturers are known to cheat on such things and don't forget the boiler is now 9 years old.

Things don't produce more as they age. We can all attest to that

Jells

NHOwner said:

What is your boiler PSI set at? Do you know?

If you want to slag me but couldn't be bothered to read the OP where that's addressed, I'm not going to engage with you. I'm not trying to get over on anyone, I'm not trying to cheap out, I'm just trying to provide heat for my tenants.

You want to know why I don't take the word of a 'professional' as gospel and insist it makes sense to me? Here's one example. A non-mechanical friend with a cabin in the hills told me he was having water pressure problems when I visited. He said numerous plumbers and well guys had tried to solve it, even fracking his well for thousands of dollars didn't solve it. I said "the pressure in the bath seemed fine". He said ' its only in the kitchen'. I walked over to the sink and cleaned the aerator screen. Problem solved.

Jells

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

The 400 degree stack temp shows the boiler is working and is not over fired and is not sooted or scaled up. If it was you would have a high stack temp. Weather the burner is firing gas or oil does not matter it's the same btu input.

Thanks Ed. Question: is incomplete combustion a possibility? That unburned gas is going up the flue? I'm still struggling to reconcile how the BTU's can be created by burning gas then a significant portion vanish.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Jells

Your problem seems to be a struggle and I don't claim to have an answer.But a few questions:

How did it work the last 9 years?

and if it did work well what has changed?

My suggestion on calling the gas co to get the btu/cf of gas is a long shot but worth a phone call.

The boiler seems to be firing the correct rate and the stack temp is fine so I would think your getting all the steam you can get.

I am assuming your not feeding excessive cold water into the boiler....like a wet return under the floor leaking?

An open or broken/disconnected steam pipe in a crawl space etc that has not been found?

Has any insulation been removed from the piping?

Just throwing stuff at the wall to see if anything sticks

Larry Weingarten

Hi, Are the pipes exposed enough so that you could look at them all with an IR camera? If so, that could make it easier to track down where the heat is going, or not.

Yours, Larry

BobC

There could be more than one issue here and that means no single fix will work. Go over everything and double check your suppositions, your setting yourself up to fail is you dismiss things just because "it can't be that".

Gsmith

I agree with @BobC above. I reread all 110 comments. Your original problem was one radiator did not heat next to a hot riser and the boiler could not heat the building adequately in cold temps (ran 5 days or so without stopping).

You calculated the square feet of radiation at 343. The boiler nameplate gave its capacity at 350 s.f., pretty close.

You clocked the gas meter at 138,000 btu/hr pretty close to the namepate on the boiler.

You got 400 degrees stack temp on a recent measurement and a competent professional (@EBEBRATT-ED) indicated that represented no significant problem with the boiler firing or clogging.

Your pictures show the ptrol set for 2 psi and you said the pigtail was clean all the way through to the boiler.

You said the boiler was using no significant water based on the VXT readings.

So double check all of the above:
-is the boiler really not using significant water (maybe turn off the VXT and watch the water level, feed water manually for a day or two if needed)
-is there a plume of white steam coming out of the chimney when the boiler runs?
-is the pigtail and piping really clean from and including the hole in the bottom of the ptrol all the way through to the boiler.
-is the inlet valve on the problem radiator all the way open? and check if the valve disk inside has not fallen off and blocked this radiator.
-is there no steam leak anywhere in the system (no radiator valve stem leaks, no radiator air vents completely removed, no cracked pipes, etc).
-are any tenants leaving the windows open because their space is too hot? maybe a big radiator under an open window is stealing all the steam from the problem radiator.
-are the steam mains insulated (I don't believe I saw an answer to this in the previous comments but may have missed it).

From the symptoms you have described my thinking is:
1. the boiler is making steam pretty close to its nameplate rating.
2. it is unlikely that the gas company is selling significantly lower btu gas, but as @EDEBRATT-ED suggested, call them and ask.
3. there may be a steam leak (holed boiler, cracked pipe, no vent on some radiator, etc). Be sure boiler is not using significant.
4. major balancing issue: check main vents are working properly and not leaking steam; check ALL radiator vents for working; check tenants are not leaving windows open; slow down radiators in rooms that are too hot; follow all the piping and see which are hot and which are not.
5. after the above which are easy for you to do and not expensive, if the problem still persists, get a competent steam guy in to service the boiler and do a combustion analysis.

This is indeed a puzzle, looking forward to hearing about the solution.

nde

Sounds like a hole above waterline. Totally removing a vent will create the lowest pressure at that rad and steam will move to it quickly to test individual rad so long as other vents in place. Do not remove vents while system is running as you can get burned.

Improper combustion on oil or gas will create soot so you can usually look in damper access while boiler running to look for sooty exhaust. this would indicate improper combustion/wasted fuel.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@NHOwner

you should consider your comments and be more respectful

wmgeorge

After running service as HVAC/R for over 30 years, I used to hate it when the Building Owner tinkered with the equipment and then refused or forget to tell you. I did not specialize working on boilers like you folks but did my share.
So when I posted above someone had overfilled and over pressured the boiler by opening the feed water manual bypass or fill, that's not a problem for those old radiator vents?

ratio

NHOwner said:

I respectfully disagree with your opinion about my comment. Thanks.

It was rudely obnoxious, far beyond funny or humorous.

That said, this is the internet. I leave my feeling at home when I head out to the wild wild web.

Erin Holohan Haskell

@NHOwner, if you can't be respectful, then you can't be here. Follow site rules: https://heatinghelp.com/forum-user-manual Thank you.

machines

Sounds like the boiler is undersized and cold air impinging on piping, causing steam to revert back to liquid and fall into return.
Many years ago, i had customer with storefront with apartment above. 
Apartment radiator in front room getting zero steam.
Took off vent while boiler fired, waited long time.
Nothing. Other rads hot.
Followed riser in basement, to first floor, opened ceiling and found massive draft from roll up gate above store front impinging on uninsulated riser.
Pipe was scalding hot until that point. 
Showed owner the problem and told him to get large opening closed and insulate pipe.
Uninsulated pipe will condense steam.
When steam condenses, it contracts. 
So no pressure buildup.
Insulation costs, but then works for free until it's ripped off. 

Jells

machines said:

Sounds like the boiler is undersized and cold air impinging on piping, causing steam to revert back to liquid and fall into return.
Many years ago, i had customer with storefront with apartment above.
Apartment radiator in front room getting zero steam.
Took off vent while boiler fired, waited long time.
Nothing. Other rads hot.
Followed riser in basement, to first floor, opened ceiling and found massive draft from roll up gate above store front impinging on uninsulated riser.
Pipe was scalding hot until that point.
Showed owner the problem and told him to get large opening closed and insulate pipe.
Uninsulated pipe will condense steam.
When steam condenses, it contracts.
So no pressure buildup.
Insulation costs, but then works for free until it's ripped off.

Thanks, that's interesting, but I find 2 flaws with applying it to my situation. At no point are the risers exposed to temps under 60 deg, and it sounds like in that circumstance the steam was limited by a thermostat getting satisfied.

It seems to me 90% of the advice I've gotten is based on ignoring or disbelieving one or more of 3 crucial facts I've stated:

• The boiler runs continually for days at a time
  
• There's no water loss
  
• The 2012 boiler & burner was sized and installed by Jstar, a competent pro
  

I've bought a boiler brush and am going to attempt to clean it today. Don't know if I'll be daring enough to crack the burner.

ChrisJ

Jells said:

machines said:

Sounds like the boiler is undersized and cold air impinging on piping, causing steam to revert back to liquid and fall into return.
Many years ago, i had customer with storefront with apartment above.
Apartment radiator in front room getting zero steam.
Took off vent while boiler fired, waited long time.
Nothing. Other rads hot.
Followed riser in basement, to first floor, opened ceiling and found massive draft from roll up gate above store front impinging on uninsulated riser.
Pipe was scalding hot until that point.
Showed owner the problem and told him to get large opening closed and insulate pipe.
Uninsulated pipe will condense steam.
When steam condenses, it contracts.
So no pressure buildup.
Insulation costs, but then works for free until it's ripped off.

Thanks, that's interesting, but I find 2 flaws with applying it to my situation. At no point are the risers exposed to temps under 60 deg, and it sounds like in that circumstance the steam was limited by a thermostat getting satisfied.

It seems to me 90% of the advice I've gotten is based on ignoring or disbelieving one or more of 3 crucial facts I've stated:

• The boiler runs continually for days at a time
  
• There's no water loss
  
• The 2012 boiler & burner was sized and installed by Jstar, a competent pro
  

I've bought a boiler brush and am going to attempt to clean it today. Don't know if I'll be daring enough to crack the burner.

Unfortunately, we keep asking for info and keep getting ignored by someone that feels they know better.
And yet, they still have the problem after 2 1/2 weeks.

I still find it very hard to believe a 130,000 btu/h input boiler is heating a 4000 sqft building, but fine let's assume it used to for now. I've been wrong before.


Please answer the following.
Did the system originally heat correctly and evenly back when Jstar installed the boiler?
Have there been any major changes to the building or the heating system since?

Assuming, or guessing simply because no one ever complained that there wasn't an issue isn't really going to cut the mustard with troubleshooting.

Help us help you.

Jells

ChrisJ said:

Jells said:

machines said:

Sounds like the boiler is undersized and cold air impinging on piping, causing steam to revert back to liquid and fall into return.
Many years ago, i had customer with storefront with apartment above.
Apartment radiator in front room getting zero steam.
Took off vent while boiler fired, waited long time.
Nothing. Other rads hot.
Followed riser in basement, to first floor, opened ceiling and found massive draft from roll up gate above store front impinging on uninsulated riser.
Pipe was scalding hot until that point.
Showed owner the problem and told him to get large opening closed and insulate pipe.
Uninsulated pipe will condense steam.
When steam condenses, it contracts.
So no pressure buildup.
Insulation costs, but then works for free until it's ripped off.

Thanks, that's interesting, but I find 2 flaws with applying it to my situation. At no point are the risers exposed to temps under 60 deg, and it sounds like in that circumstance the steam was limited by a thermostat getting satisfied.

It seems to me 90% of the advice I've gotten is based on ignoring or disbelieving one or more of 3 crucial facts I've stated:

• The boiler runs continually for days at a time
  
• There's no water loss
  
• The 2012 boiler & burner was sized and installed by Jstar, a competent pro
  

I've bought a boiler brush and am going to attempt to clean it today. Don't know if I'll be daring enough to crack the burner.

Unfortunately, we keep asking for info and keep getting ignored by someone that feels they know better.
And yet, they still have the problem after 2 1/2 weeks.

I still find it very hard to believe a 130,000 btu/h input boiler is heating a 4000 sqft building, but fine let's assume it used to for now. I've been wrong before.


Please answer the following.
Did the system originally heat correctly and evenly back when Jstar installed the boiler?
Have there been any major changes to the building or the heating system since?

Help us help you.

Yes, obviously, or he would have made it right.
no

Your comment about the boiler is exactly what I'm talking about, it's disbelief in #3. Forget the boiler, the basic EDR hasn't changed in 100 years and the BTU usage is appropriate to that.

ChrisJ

If nothing has changed.
And your stack temp is what you said and the gas meter clocks what you said.


Venting.

MaxMercy

ChrisJ said:

If nothing has changed.
And your stack temp is what you said and the gas meter clocks what you said.


Venting.

I know zippity do-da about steam Chris, but if it were a venting problem, would the boiler run for 5 straight days without shutting down? I think the crux of Jell's issues with the advice is that the boiler is consuming a lot of fuel and it's not getting to the apartments. If venting can cause this, then the venting should be addressed by all means.

I do agree that 130K seems underfired for 4K sq, and more so if it's an older building with iffy windows and no wall insulation. If it's an older building not well insulated or tight, then 50 btu per 1K sq would mean about 200K output in a very cold climate.

Jells: someone earlier asked if there could be an aprt or radiators that are too hot and the tenant has a window open, did you check for this? Also, you said no make up water is being added. Have you tried shutting off the valve and **carefully** monitoring the water level to make sure that there is no undiscovered water loss going on?

Again, I know nothing about steam, but I am old enough to know that a lot of things that are counter-intuitive are in fact reality. If the pros are suggesting trying different venting, I would be inclined to follow the advice even if I thought it would lead nowhere. In other words, humor them. You never know.

ChrisJ

MaxMercy said:

ChrisJ said:

If nothing has changed.
And your stack temp is what you said and the gas meter clocks what you said.


Venting.

I know zippity do-da about steam Chris, but if it were a venting problem, would the boiler run for 5 straight days without shutting down? I think the crux of Jell's issues with the advice is that the boiler is consuming a lot of fuel and it's not getting to the apartments. If venting can cause this, then the venting should be addressed by all means.

I do agree that 130K seems underfired for 4K sq, and more so if it's an older building with iffy windows and no wall insulation. If it's an older building not well insulated or tight, then 50 btu per 1K sq would mean about 200K output in a very cold climate.

Jells: someone earlier asked if there could be an aprt or radiators that are too hot and the tenant has a window open, did you check for this? Also, you said no make up water is being added. Have you tried shutting off the valve and **carefully** monitoring the water level to make sure that there is no undiscovered water loss going on?

Again, I know nothing about steam, but I am old enough to know that a lot of things that are counter-intuitive are in fact reality. If the pros are suggesting trying different venting, I would be inclined to follow the advice even if I thought it would lead nowhere. In other words, humor them. You never know.

If the boiler is firing correctly then as the OP has actually said multiple times, that energy isn't just magically disappearing.

Literally the only thing in a single pipe steam system that controls where heat goes is the venting. Venting steers the steam. If the place only has 80,000 and change worth of radiation and we're putting 130,000 into the boiler and the stack temperatures are reasonable and the system allegedly worked for all these years.

Only one thing could've changed on it's own and it's being ignored.

I don't know why the system is running all of the time, or if it even is, I'm not there. I don't know why people aren't overheating but what I do now is how the system works and it does follow some very basic rules.

Check the vents, go room by room and check the radiators and draw up a little map like I did showing what radiators have what vents and which ones are cold and which ones are hot etc. How are the main vents? Are they working?

wmgeorge

Jells : So you hired someone, and perhaps I missed the Post and he did a combustion Analysis what did it show? What did the Serviceman say was wrong?


For the experts--- Is it possible water is entering the system from another point and its not being logged? Burned and going up the flue or a leak in the system?

ethicalpaul

Don't forget 130k input is ~ 107k into the building and 23k up the chimney

So a 4000 sq ft building is getting 107k btu and no one has any idea how many windows are open (Jells isn't able or willing to go into the apartments which I can understand to a point).

My 1200 sq ft house was getting about 90k input when I moved in and yeah it was oversized but not insanely so.

I don't really see a mystery here. Shrug!

MaxMercy

ethicalpaul said:

So a 4000 sq ft building is getting 107k btu and no one has any idea how many windows are open (Jells isn't able or willing to go into the apartments which I can understand to a point).

I just sold my last income property after 30 years. I can finally sleep at night.. But if a tenant complained about anything, then they never complained about me or a carpenter (for instance) going in the unit and seeing what was wrong (I never once entered any apartment unless I was called first).

If they're complaining about the heat, then I would think they would be very receptive to having someone checking the radiators to find out what's wrong.

ethicalpaul

I'm just the messenger

Jells

And we go around again with disbelief that there is no windows open and there's no water loss. To reiterate ad nauseam, the problem isn't just cold rooms because a window is open, it's cold rads.

So I just finished cleaning the boiler section. I took this shot after I cleaned the right side but not the left. That looks like a crap load of carbon to me to have accumulated since last March, but I do not have the experience to know, nor how much this would interfere with heat uptake. Would this kind of soot load show up in a combustion analysis?



I also took off and cleaned the fire chamber sight glass that was so carboned up nothing could be seen. The flame looks pretty yellow to me.  Like I said above I'm reluctant to dive into cleaning the burner, but if I can't get a professional in here, I guess I'll have to.  All the evidence looks to me like this burner is out of tune, but I have to admit I am out of my depth.

I'm simply astonished that the steam boiler tech would rather lose a customer who manages 10 separate heating systems than run the combustion analysis and clean the boiler. The only thing he was interested in doing was ripping out the entire return system, and I didn't even say no, I said I wanted him to do a combustion analysis first.

JUGHNE

Any kind of gas will turn the meter for clocking.
I believe the question has been asked of the BTU content, you could inquire to the company, but can you believe them?....it seems that "weak" gas would show up in comb analysis.

And as far as disturbing the tenants, the law here is that landlord can enter units (even unannounced) in case of an emergency. The risk of losing heat would be considered an emergency in my opinion.
And it would not have to be unannounced, they would most likely not have an issue.
You could check the EDR, windows and air vents.

EBEBRATT-Ed

You have some soot there but seeing the amount of gas your burning I wouldn't be overly concerned. A sooted up boiler would have a high stack temp which you didn't have. But every little bit helps. The service tech probably didn't clean it the last time (or any time)