Best single resource for a diy hydronic in floor heat

RMercer30

Hi all, so glad I found this forum. I am going to be tackling an in floor heat job on my new home/shop build this summer. Shop connected to home is 2960 sq ft in total. 

What is the single best book (preferred) or website blog that will help me wrap my head around this job. I’m not wanting to learn all about the industry or the math behind the science I just want to be handle the “calculator” so to speak where I can enter my numbers in and it spits out answers.

What type of pattern do I run my coil in? How far apart do I put each run? Do I use PEX A or is PEX B good enough? 

So much information to take in at once,,

Ironman

Your first step is to do an accurate heat loss calculation: it’s the foundation for designing everything.

SlantFin has a fee app that you can download.

Larry Weingarten

Hi, Have a look here: https://www.hydronicpros.com/about-us.php Hydronics is a big, complex, math-filled field of work. There's no way around it if you want to wind up with a good system. .Still, there is a LOT of experienced knowledge right here, that's glad to share.

This might help: https://www.addall.com/SuperRare/UsedPage.html?start=0&id=220105202429889334&dispCurr=USD&inTitle=&inAuthor=Siegenthaler+john&inDesc=&exTitle=&exAuthor=&exDesc=&match=Y&eachShow=50&order=PRICE&ordering=ASC

Yours, Larry

ratio

There's also https://idronics.caleffi.com/magazine-archive. While it does aim to teach you what and why, it also shows you how. Sometimes I just gloss over the theory & just look at the diagrams. They're educational in their own right.

Hot_water_fan

Idronics is great. Do not use a tankless water heater for this job, use a boiler. For a shop, remember in floor radiant is extremely slow to respond, so it’ll be on 24/7. 

Lance

Your floor construction and your target design temps and how you uses it dictates your choices. Electric or hydronic. I have three types of hydronic piped in my home all using Pex/alu/Pex, in concrete, staple up from below, and surface under tile. There is also http://www.ultra-fin.com/; The joist space becomes the emitter. Eliminates need for a circuit temperature limit. Good application for radiant add on in non radiant systems with or without zoning.

Zman

https://www.amazon.com/Hydronic-Radiant-Heating-Practical-Nonengineer/dp/0974396052

STEVEusaPA

I know you want to do it yourself. But why not hire a radiant pro to design it, give you a few pointers for install, and commission it for you? You'll still save a lot of money, and you lessen or eliminate the chance of making a major mistake that would be costly/nearly impossible to fix.

Daveinscranton

The Uponor technical manual is a good source. About 380 pages as I recall and available online for free.  Might have to hunt and peck a bit to find it.  

Might want to hire a pro for the design.  Certainly you can do it yourself.  But errors may not be easily corrected and some will last the life of the building.

If you do it yourself, a bit more pex in floor is better than a bit less.  Hard to fix that one later.  Especially if it is in a slab.

Best wishes 

RMercer30

Thanks everyone for the responses, I will look through all those links in the coming days. 

As for hiring a professional that was definitely a thought and likely a route I will look into. 

To note; the shop will have a wood stove for help the system when needed. The hydronic heat will mainly be to maintain 10 degree Celsius temperatures when I am away. 

Hot_water_fan

The hydronic heat will mainly be to maintain 10 degree Celsius temperatures when I am away.

Save yourself a bundle and find a different heating method then! Not a good application for a radiant floor.

ratio

Daveinscranton said:

The Uponor technical manual is a good source. About 380 pages as I recall and available online for free.  Might have to hunt and peck a bit to find it.

Try https://www.google.com/search?q=Uponor+cdam. (direct link not provided because Upnor doesn't seem to provide a complete download link).

STEVEusaPA

Uponor will mail that book to you.

Rich_49

https://assets.supply.com/ul_pdfs/712593_ownersmanual.pdf

Derheatmeister

Hot_water_fan said:

The hydronic heat will mainly be to maintain 10 degree Celsius temperatures when I am away.

Save yourself a bundle and find a different heating method then! Not a good application for a radiant floor.

Can you please tell us why radiant is not a good application for a base temp of 50 F ?

Hot_water_fan

@Derheatmeister unless it’s a shop where people are laying on/near the floor, seems the most expensive option for zero benefit. The slab temp would be what…55 degrees Fahrenheit? Not exactly warm. If it was ever used as the main heating source, it would take forever to bring the space up to temperature. There are other ways to maintain 50 degrees for thousands less that are equally efficient.  

kenjohnson

This is another resource I used when learning about radiant heat and planning my system. http://healthyheating.com

If you just want to plug things into a calculator and get a design, I would say you shouldn't design it yourself. Better to hire a contractor who has done it before.

Also, if the radiant heating system is just going to be used to maintain a low base temperature when you are away, I would say just install a mini split heat pump to do that. Radiant heat will cost a lot to get someone else to design and install, or cost you a lot in time to install. Been there, done that. I'm glad I invested the time (and money), but if it wasn't my primary heating source, I would have considered it a waste of time and money.

RMercer30

Maybe I should add that it gets down to -40 here for weeks on end in the winter. Keeping the shop at 10 Celsius is no small feat for a heating source specially seeing how the ceiling height is 20’. 

I am going to continue to pursue this source of heat. I feel I’m going to get someone to design it for me as that seems the best bet to avoid oversights. 

Thanks for the link to that book. 

RMercer30

Hot_water_fan said:

@Derheatmeister unless it’s a shop where people are laying on/near the floor, seems the most expensive option for zero benefit.

I will be regularly working on heavy equipment / trucks so there are lots of benefits other than just shop heating.

Hot_water_fan

Maybe I should add that it gets down to -40 here for weeks on end in the winter. Keeping the shop at 10 Celsius is no small feat for a heating source specially seeing how the ceiling height is 20’.

Not a particularly strong reason to use radiant floor. Just keep your options open. Unit heaters, gas stoves, panel radiators, etc. can all do the task for cheaper.

Hot_water_fan

I will be regularly working on heavy equipment / trucks so there are lots of benefits other than just shop heating.

Great application. Take a look at wood gasification boilers too - they could run the floor/other emitters as well while being backed up by another boiler. 

kcopp

Your best option may be to reach out to a local contractor who you can work with. May be able to allow you to do some of the grunt work and they the boiler/ design work...

ratio

Response time to a setpoint change is terrible. I have a radiant floor in my church that does the heavy lifting, c. 75' x 150' x whatever thickness, certainly not less than 4 inches. That's over 3,000 tons of concrete. I keep the surface set to less than 72°. A few years ago the inspector checked the high limit by turning it down until it tripped & then forgot to reset it. It took two weeks before I realized the boiler wasn't running!

OTOH, it keeps the place comfortable all winter.

Rich_49

RMercer30 said:

Hi all, so glad I found this forum. I am going to be tackling an in floor heat job on my new home/shop build this summer. Shop connected to home is 2960 sq ft in total. 

What is the single best book (preferred) or website blog that will help me wrap my head around this job. I’m not wanting to learn all about the industry or the math behind the science I just want to be handle the “calculator” so to speak where I can enter my numbers in and it spits out answers.

What type of pattern do I run my coil in? How far apart do I put each run? Do I use PEX A or is PEX B good enough? 

So much information to take in at once,,

Where are you located ? We might be able to recommend someone

RMercer30

Rich_49 said:

Where are you located ? We might be able to recommend someone

I am in Central Alberta. Who would I be looking for to design these systems or advice on what system is ideal? I have googled a few HVAC consultation companies like this one; https://acaciaengineering.ca/. Perhaps I’ll make some calls this coming week. 

I am open to all options including some type of overhead heat, I just figured since we are doing in floor heat for the attached home it makes sense to continue it into the shop. 

psb75

Insulate the slab and put the tubing in it even if you don't plan to use it. It will add value to the real estate.
It will always be there if you ever want to upgrade it for the best heat in the world. It would be a real pain and expense to add it...after the slab is in place.

hot_rod

Three tips worth considering 
6” spacing, lowers SWT and accelerates start up, more even surface temperature.

Get the tube mid pour as much as possible, same reasons as above and it lowers the downward loss 

Map the layout well for drilling and mounting in the future. An as built drawing, and a neighbors drone pics😉