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Best single resource for a diy hydronic in floor heat

Hi all, so glad I found this forum. I am going to be tackling an in floor heat job on my new home/shop build this summer. Shop connected to home is 2960 sq ft in total. 

What is the single best book (preferred) or website blog that will help me wrap my head around this job. I’m not wanting to learn all about the industry or the math behind the science I just want to be handle the “calculator” so to speak where I can enter my numbers in and it spits out answers.

What type of pattern do I run my coil in? How far apart do I put each run? Do I use PEX A or is PEX B good enough? 

So much information to take in at once,,

Comments

  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,547
    Your first step is to do an accurate heat loss calculation: it’s the foundation for designing everything.

    SlantFin has a fee app that you can download.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,591
    edited January 2022
    Hi, Have a look here: https://www.hydronicpros.com/about-us.php Hydronics is a big, complex, math-filled field of work. There's no way around it if you want to wind up with a good system. .Still, there is a LOT of experienced knowledge right here, that's glad to share.

    This might help: https://www.addall.com/SuperRare/UsedPage.html?start=0&id=220105202429889334&dispCurr=USD&inTitle=&inAuthor=Siegenthaler+john&inDesc=&exTitle=&exAuthor=&exDesc=&match=Y&eachShow=50&order=PRICE&ordering=ASC

    Yours, Larry
    kcoppAlan (California Radiant) Forbes
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,789
    There's also https://idronics.caleffi.com/magazine-archive. While it does aim to teach you what and why, it also shows you how. Sometimes I just gloss over the theory & just look at the diagrams. They're educational in their own right.
    Hot_water_fan
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 2,040
    Idronics is great. Do not use a tankless water heater for this job, use a boiler. For a shop, remember in floor radiant is extremely slow to respond, so it’ll be on 24/7. 
  • Lance
    Lance Member Posts: 305
    Your floor construction and your target design temps and how you uses it dictates your choices. Electric or hydronic. I have three types of hydronic piped in my home all using Pex/alu/Pex, in concrete, staple up from below, and surface under tile. There is also http://www.ultra-fin.com/; The joist space becomes the emitter. Eliminates need for a circuit temperature limit. Good application for radiant add on in non radiant systems with or without zoning.
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,611
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • Daveinscranton
    Daveinscranton Member Posts: 148
    The Uponor technical manual is a good source. About 380 pages as I recall and available online for free.  Might have to hunt and peck a bit to find it.  

    Might want to hire a pro for the design.  Certainly you can do it yourself.  But errors may not be easily corrected and some will last the life of the building.

    If you do it yourself, a bit more pex in floor is better than a bit less.  Hard to fix that one later.  Especially if it is in a slab.

    Best wishes 
  • RMercer30
    RMercer30 Member Posts: 5
    edited January 2022
    Thanks everyone for the responses, I will look through all those links in the coming days. 

    As for hiring a professional that was definitely a thought and likely a route I will look into. 

    To note; the shop will have a wood stove for help the system when needed. The hydronic heat will mainly be to maintain 10 degree Celsius temperatures when I am away. 
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 2,040
    The hydronic heat will mainly be to maintain 10 degree Celsius temperatures when I am away.


    Save yourself a bundle and find a different heating method then! Not a good application for a radiant floor.
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,789

    The Uponor technical manual is a good source. About 380 pages as I recall and available online for free.  Might have to hunt and peck a bit to find it.

    Try https://www.google.com/search?q=Uponor+cdam. (direct link not provided because Upnor doesn't seem to provide a complete download link).
    Daveinscranton
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
    Uponor will mail that book to you.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,769
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,581

    The hydronic heat will mainly be to maintain 10 degree Celsius temperatures when I am away.


    Save yourself a bundle and find a different heating method then! Not a good application for a radiant floor.


    Can you please tell us why radiant is not a good application for a base temp of 50 F ?
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 2,040
    @Derheatmeister unless it’s a shop where people are laying on/near the floor, seems the most expensive option for zero benefit. The slab temp would be what…55 degrees Fahrenheit? Not exactly warm. If it was ever used as the main heating source, it would take forever to bring the space up to temperature. There are other ways to maintain 50 degrees for thousands less that are equally efficient.  
    GroundUp
  • kenjohnson
    kenjohnson Member Posts: 87
    edited January 2022
    This is another resource I used when learning about radiant heat and planning my system. http://healthyheating.com

    If you just want to plug things into a calculator and get a design, I would say you shouldn't design it yourself. Better to hire a contractor who has done it before.

    Also, if the radiant heating system is just going to be used to maintain a low base temperature when you are away, I would say just install a mini split heat pump to do that. Radiant heat will cost a lot to get someone else to design and install, or cost you a lot in time to install. Been there, done that. I'm glad I invested the time (and money), but if it wasn't my primary heating source, I would have considered it a waste of time and money.
    Hot_water_fanRich_49
  • RMercer30
    RMercer30 Member Posts: 5
    Maybe I should add that it gets down to -40 here for weeks on end in the winter. Keeping the shop at 10 Celsius is no small feat for a heating source specially seeing how the ceiling height is 20’. 

    I am going to continue to pursue this source of heat. I feel I’m going to get someone to design it for me as that seems the best bet to avoid oversights. 

    Thanks for the link to that book. 
    Rich_49
  • RMercer30
    RMercer30 Member Posts: 5
    @Derheatmeister unless it’s a shop where people are laying on/near the floor, seems the most expensive option for zero benefit.
    I will be regularly working on heavy equipment / trucks so there are lots of benefits other than just shop heating.
    Hot_water_fanRich_49
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 2,040
    Maybe I should add that it gets down to -40 here for weeks on end in the winter. Keeping the shop at 10 Celsius is no small feat for a heating source specially seeing how the ceiling height is 20’.


    Not a particularly strong reason to use radiant floor. Just keep your options open. Unit heaters, gas stoves, panel radiators, etc. can all do the task for cheaper.
    Zman
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 2,040
    I will be regularly working on heavy equipment / trucks so there are lots of benefits other than just shop heating.
    Great application. Take a look at wood gasification boilers too - they could run the floor/other emitters as well while being backed up by another boiler. 
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,472
    Your best option may be to reach out to a local contractor who you can work with. May be able to allow you to do some of the grunt work and they the boiler/ design work...
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,789
    Response time to a setpoint change is terrible. I have a radiant floor in my church that does the heavy lifting, c. 75' x 150' x whatever thickness, certainly not less than 4 inches. That's over 3,000 tons of concrete. I keep the surface set to less than 72°. A few years ago the inspector checked the high limit by turning it down until it tripped & then forgot to reset it. It took two weeks before I realized the boiler wasn't running!

    OTOH, it keeps the place comfortable all winter.

  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,769
    RMercer30 said:

    Hi all, so glad I found this forum. I am going to be tackling an in floor heat job on my new home/shop build this summer. Shop connected to home is 2960 sq ft in total. 


    What is the single best book (preferred) or website blog that will help me wrap my head around this job. I’m not wanting to learn all about the industry or the math behind the science I just want to be handle the “calculator” so to speak where I can enter my numbers in and it spits out answers.

    What type of pattern do I run my coil in? How far apart do I put each run? Do I use PEX A or is PEX B good enough? 

    So much information to take in at once,,
    Where are you located ? We might be able to recommend someone
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • RMercer30
    RMercer30 Member Posts: 5
    Rich_49 said:
    Where are you located ? We might be able to recommend someone
    I am in Central Alberta. Who would I be looking for to design these systems or advice on what system is ideal? I have googled a few HVAC consultation companies like this one; https://acaciaengineering.ca/. Perhaps I’ll make some calls this coming week. 

    I am open to all options including some type of overhead heat, I just figured since we are doing in floor heat for the attached home it makes sense to continue it into the shop. 
  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 906
    Insulate the slab and put the tubing in it even if you don't plan to use it. It will add value to the real estate.
    It will always be there if you ever want to upgrade it for the best heat in the world. It would be a real pain and expense to add it...after the slab is in place.
    EternalNoobKNPV_PSD
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 23,379
    Three tips worth considering 
    6” spacing, lowers SWT and accelerates start up, more even surface temperature.

    Get the tube mid pour as much as possible, same reasons as above and it lowers the downward loss 

    Map the layout well for drilling and mounting in the future. An as built drawing, and a neighbors drone pics😉
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Rich_49kcopp