Air Getting into New Radiant System After Cool Down

mattmia2

You have to leave the black cap loose for it to work, that is your problem. That opening with the black cap is where the air separator vents the air it collects. As long as the system stays under positive pressure it won't suck in air at the air separator. It was sucking in air when your expansion tank wasn't working and the system was going in to vacuum.

Those fittings you are using to fill the system are called boiler drains, I was suggesting you try to vent air there, but if you keep the cap loose on the air separator you shouldn't have to.

Glycol is more viscous than water and can really hold on to tiny bubbles of air. If there is enough air that the pressure drops under maybe 10 psi, you will need to use the sump pump to put more fluid in.

danwheeler

mattmia2 said:

I would start at maybe 20-25 psi and see what happens. If it stops circulating again turn off the boiler and see if you can bleed some air at the top boiler drains and get it circulating again and let the air separator do its thing. Do you hear it venting air periodically?

BTW - what do you mean by stop circulating? It never stops circulating. I do turn it off when I hear the boiler hissing due to air in the system.

It's running now and I've set the boiler to 100. That seems to keep it from hissing. It got to about 105 and it started to sound like a toilet flushing about every 30 seconds right above the pump. This time, I didn't really hear a lot of air making it all the way around to the other side of the circuit... just above the pump with the toilet flushing noise.

I was also hearing a weird subtle crackling sound coming from the top of the expansion tank. Almost like a little tiny frog croaking. Not sure if that was water pushing open the diaphragm? This seemed to happen around the same time the pump was making toilet flushing noises.

mattmia2

My assumption was that the all of a sudden event was that the bubble got big enough it caused the circulator to no longer be pulling in enough water to circulate but it sounds like the bubble is just getting big enough to hear water and air moving separately. Since that is the high point in the system air will tend to collect there. Open the cap on the air separator and it should eventually find its way there and out of the system. Watch the pressure, you probably will need to add more fluid.

There are feed tank systems like this that can do it automatically but once you get the air out you shouldn't have to deal with it again (the non oxygen barrier tubing and ferrous circulator is something we can talk about later):
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Axiom-MF200-MF200-PRESSURE-PAL-Hydronic-Mini-System-Feeder-6-Gallon

danwheeler

mattmia2 said:

You have to leave the black cap loose for it to work, that is your problem. That opening with the black cap is where the air separator vents the air it collects. As long as the system stays under positive pressure it won't suck in air at the air separator. It was sucking in air when your expansion tank wasn't working and the system was going in to vacuum.

OK, I see your logic... I'm really hesitant to open that black cap because of what it did in the past but maybe it doesn't do that anymore. I haven't tested it since fixing the pressure issue and expansion tank. When it was sucking in air previously, it wasn't when the system had possibly gone negative, it was just anytime the pump stopped, I think even when I had it at 12 PSI. I realize that doesn't make sense. It does collect air when the black cap is closed, I just have to let it out every once and a while manually.

Thanks for the help here, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. This thing is killing me, I hate not knowing how things work and not being able to figure them out.

mattmia2

It could be that when the circulator stopped before the pressure went up a little in that section and the fluid stopped moving and some air found its way out and you heard air escaping not being sucked in, then as the system cooled and the pressure dropped it sucked air in more slowly to replace the fluid you let out when it was hot.

danwheeler

mattmia2 said:

It could be that when the circulator stopped before the pressure went up a little in that section and the fluid stopped moving and some air found its way out and you heard air escaping not being sucked in, then as the system cooled and the pressure dropped it sucked air in more slowly to replace the fluid you let out when it was hot.

yeah that's possible, I suppose at the time, there was likely a real issue with negative pressure due to the expansion tank being too small and anytime the system stopped, it would suck in air (still not sure where from) but maybe I was just associating that noise with a result (new air in the system) that wasn't related to the noise.

I've got it running right now set to 110F and it seems to be doing ok. Every once and a while it will make the toilet flushing sound right above the pump but I am not really hearing any major noise on the return side of the circuit which I usually hear right after it comes out of the boiler where there's a 18" downward pipe. That's where I usually hear what sounds like water going down a drain when the air makes it to the return side.

Now I just gotta decide if I'm willing to risk going to bed with it running like this Seems stable now but I'd hate for it to get weird overnight and mess up the boiler. I'm just not sure how I'm ever going to get the air out if the air only seems to appear when the temperature and pressure are up.

mattmia2

Read this:
https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/file/idronics_15_na_2019.pdf

danwheeler

Oh man, looks like some good bedtime reading, I’ll check it out, thanks.

Just had a thought… I’m wondering if it’s possible that some of the air getting past the air separator could be getting pushed left past the T where the water flows down into the pump and collecting there. Then when I wiggled that area, it was working the air loose causing it to get sucked down into the pump. I guess that’s kind of what you were saying. But to me, at the time, it seemed like a leaky spot letting air in and just happened to be a piece of marred copper in that area. Maybe?

EBEBRATT-Ed

@danwheeler

What speed are you running the circ pump at? I would try turning it to low speed if your not on low already. That is a pretty stout pump.

Excess velocity will make air removal difficult

hot_rod

The cap on the sep must be left open for that to be an automatic air purger. The red cap is meant to be a manual vent port.

You have a brief period of time for that air to capture and vent i n the purger, it will never vent with the cap closed. Try it, what do you have to lose.

Should be a float vent on top of the boiler also to make sure any air trapped up top can vent.

That boiler is just a a 1 gallon tube, but also a low velocity zone that can collect and vent air. A cross fitting on top of the boiler would allow for a vent up there. I'd be surprised if the boiler manual doesn't show that high point vent? Most all new boiler have or show a vent on the HX. The element is near the bottom as I recall, you would need to lose a lot of water before it ran dry and damaged anything.

That "big" air should really come out with your hose "power purge". Small errant air collects and purges out in the Watts.

The scratches on the copper usually happen when you remove a grip type fitting, you are pulling against the gripper fingers when you remove them.

Jamie Hall

One minor comment -- it is truly remarkable how much racket and fuss a small amount of air in a coherent bubble can cause.

danwheeler

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@danwheeler

What speed are you running the circ pump at? I would try turning it to low speed if your not on low already. That is a pretty stout pump.

Excess velocity will make air removal difficult

I ran it overnight on medium. I tried turning it down to low this morning but that causes the boiler to make a subtle but consistent hissing sound every 2-3 seconds. I set it back to medium for now. Not sure what that means.

Things seem stable this morning. I just cycled the system off to see what it would do. No major air problems after turning it off and on again a few times.

I ran the boiler at 100 overnight and just turned it up to 110.

The black cap was left open overnight. I've had to add a tiny bit of water a few times to restore pressure to where I'd expect it. Only down by a few PSI. I assume this means the air separator is getting some air out. I am not hearing the noise from the air separator when I stop the circulator now.

Dan

danwheeler

hot_rod said:

The scratches on the copper usually happen when you remove a grip type fitting, you are pulling against the gripper fingers when you remove them.

Thanks, Bob. See my previous comment about current status as of this morning and the black cap being open. I *think* things are looking better now. Just not sure why I'm getting hissing from the boiler on low pump speed.

As for the copper, if you look at the picture, there was a decent circumferential score on that copper probably from me starting a cut then deciding to cut it somewhere else. But as we've discussed, that was probably a red herring. I have a theory that air was collecting in that area beyond the T where water turns down and runs into the pump and when I bumped that area, the air would get jostled and sucked down into the pump making me think there was a leak letting air in.

re: the high vent on the boiler. I do see in Electro's manual that they recommend an elbow after the T on top of the boiler to which the safety vent attaches. I see I have my safety vent installed incorrectly rotated 90 degrees down where it should be. My release lever is on the side but it should be on the top. If I were to set it up as shown in their drawing, I assume that would provide a place for air to collect which could be released manually. Or I could add a float vent. (will have to look up what that is)

danwheeler

Jamie Hall said:

One minor comment -- it is truly remarkable how much racket and fuss a small amount of air in a coherent bubble can cause.

It sure is. I couldn't possibly explain to anyone I know, the frustration, physics, technical experience required and level of effort it's taken to get this working. For most, it's just a magic thing that works most of the time and when it doesn't, you call an expert. I'm sure glad to have all the help from everyone here.

hot_rod

Your boiler is the highest point in the system so any air will collect there when the pump is off, that is why they like a vent there. In that drawing, the air purger is the high point.

All electric elements in water will make some small noises, it's the water heating on the hot rod. It usually goes away when the elements scale up a bit.

Does the pump run whenever the boiler is on? wired to the relay inside.

Or does the pump shut off via the wall thermostat and the boiler continue to run up to its temperature setting?

You could run the pump continuously, and the thermostat just calls the boiler on. The hissing would not be noticeable and floors tend to be more consistent temperature with constant circulation.

Probably handle the air removal better with constant circulation also. Be nice to have an ECM pump if you run constant circ, just for some power savings,

danwheeler

hot_rod said:

All electric elements in water will make some small noises, it's the water heating on the hot rod. It usually goes away when the elements scale up a bit.

Thanks, Bob. OK, maybe this coffee maker noise is normal. I have a pretty bad case of hyperacusis (everything seems loud to me) so I tend to hear and be bothered by noises that other people aren't even aware of.

The thermostat is wired up to the i-Link pump controller then a wire from the pump controller over to the boiler to pass the on signal to the boiler. So the boiler and the pump go on and off together.

That's an interesting idea running the pump full time and just cycling the boiler. Maybe I'll set it up that way once I get things stabilized.

thanks for the help here.

danwheeler

hot_rod said:

All electric elements in water will make some small noises, it's the water heating on the hot rod. It usually goes away when the elements scale up a bit.

just uploaded a quick video of the boiler noise. If you have a minute to watch/listen and let me know what you think, I'd sure appreciate it.

I've got it set up to 130 now and no major issues. I've got my thermostat set for 75 and it seems to be having a hard time getting there. This whole place is only about 700 square feet. I've got a huge wall of windows though and it's 22 degrees out right now. Maybe it needs to go to 140. The floors are really nice and warm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yM0y3IV5j8

HomerJSmith

I noticed the Pine and Fir trees, where are you?

You're never going to set point with the builder's paper over the floor.

I think that the air eliminator should be at the top of the boiler output or at least a vent of some kind at that high point. One could crack the pressure relief valve and see if air comes out. If there is trapped air at top of the boiler, the circulator will not pump thru it and it may cause the boiler to be a little noisy.

I don't see a boiler cold water feed. As air is eliminated it has to be replaced with water/anti-freeze solution. When you flush the sys you could have several gallons of entrained air in the water.

hot_rod

400 sq ft of window in a 700 sq ft room?  Yeah that could be a tough load to cover. Certainly don’t want to over heat the floor. About 82F surface temperature is max.

Quick and easy to run a load calc on a single room at slantfin.com

you may have a floor warming system😉

mattmia2

you won't get quick recovery out of a radiant system. Maybe the amount of tubing they gave you was what the load calcs said you needed regardless of if you had enough floor area for it.

At leas it is all electric so assuming you have the service available it will be easy to add some electric panel or baseboard radiators if you need it.

motoguy128

To purge radiant you may need to close all the loops on the manifold and purge them one at a time.  The manifold should have flow setters that can stop flow completely.  

On a single zone system you don’t need a check valve at all.  

For 600’ of tubing the water temp is so low and temp swing is small on radiant, a 2.2 gallon would probably work fine. Clikd have just use a tire gauge and bled the existing expansion tank to 10-15 psi.  There are online calculators.   It comes down to the temperature range and water volume.   Higher temp systems with larger cast iron boilers need larger tanks.  Especially former gravity system with 2-1/2 or 3”
headers.  They are frequently too small.  

danwheeler

HomerJSmith said:

I noticed the Pine and Fir trees, where are you?

You're never going to set point with the builder's paper over the floor.

I think that the air eliminator should be at the top of the boiler output or at least a vent of some kind at that high point. One could crack the pressure relief valve and see if air comes out. If there is trapped air at top of the boiler, the circulator will not pump thru it and it may cause the boiler to be a little noisy.

I don't see a boiler cold water feed. As air is eliminated it has to be replaced with water/anti-freeze solution. When you flush the sys you could have several gallons of entrained air in the water.

I'm on the east slopes of the Cascades in Washington state.

When I re-config the safety vent on top of the boiler by adding a 90 that points up, it will be at a high point in the system, even above the air separator and that will allow me to use the safety vent to let out any collected air. I've hit it a few times to check for air but it doesn't seem to collect much.

It *seems* like I've got most of the big bubbles out at this point and maybe just have some smaller stuff the separator will take care of over time. I say *seems* like because I've thought things were good so many times in the last week but time will tell.

There is a "boiler drain" below the boiler with a faucet connection. There's also one on the far left side of the system right after the pump, under the expansion tank. But typically I fill and flush using the two faucet connections with the 1/4 turn valve right between them. I close the 1/4 turn valve, then fill from the one on the left, and if I'm flushing, return to the bucket from the one on the right. Otherwise, if I'm just topping off with water to replace pressure lost to eliminated air, I start my submersible pump with the left valve closed, open it up a tiny bit until water drips out (to make sure the air in the hose is out) then open the fill valve for just a second to get me back up to 12PSI then close it. I assume I could do this from any one of the 4 faucet drains on the system.

danwheeler

mattmia2 said:

you won't get quick recovery out of a radiant system. Maybe the amount of tubing they gave you was what the load calcs said you needed regardless of if you had enough floor area for it.

At leas it is all electric so assuming you have the service available it will be easy to add some electric panel or baseboard radiators if you need it.

We'll see what it's capable of within a few weeks. As Bob mentioned, the paper on the floor might not be helping. I took off to go skiing and go back home so I set the tstat to 70 since I'd be away for a few days and I noticed (wifi tstat) that the room temp kept rising after I left and after the boiler had been turned off. So I think (I hope) it'll be able to get to 75 when it's 22ish out, I'm probably just not used to the lag. And if it can't... well, I also have a mini split for AC and will have a wood stove And if all that fails, I'll cut up some big rectangles of 2" foam to stick in the upper windows during winter!

mattmia2

You could also go a bit above 12 psi and the expansion tank will take some fluid that will be released to replace the remaining air. The air should eventually find it's way to the air separator as long as there isnt such a large bubble that it blocks flow.

danwheeler

I was just thinking… my kit supplier will probably check in with me next week. I’ll have to tell him I ignored his advice to ditch the antifreeze and flush/fill from a domestic source and instead just installed a larger expansion tank which fixed the issue. If I put myself in his shoes, I think he’ll say that I had too much air in the system and the larger expansion tank just covered that problem up.

And this seems plausible to me when I think about it.

*IF* I had air in the system due to using my submersible pump and thicker antifreeze… the combination of both leading to an insufficient initial purge, which left air in the system, which expanded rapidly and overwhelmed my 1 gallon expansion tank, which led to me releasing water to reduce pressure, which led to negative pressure on cool down, which led to a vacuum, which led to sucking in more air, which led to more air expanding in the system, which created a big circular problem, which led to me getting on the internet with you guys to help me fix it… follow all that?  

Is it possible that the larger expansion tank band-aided my bad initial purge and only after that was installed could I continue running the system to let the air separator do its job?

mattmia2

the air in the system is compressible, the fluid is not. air in the system will help somewhat with an inadequate expansion tank. there were some old systems where they intentionally left some air in radiators to allow for expansion. the expansion tank adds air to the system to be compressed by the expansion of the fluid. it has a diaphragm that keeps the air from being able to dissolve in the fluid, but it essentially is just adding air to the system

This was part of why i didn't think you had much air in the system because it would have kept the pressure from rising much with temp if there were a lot of air in the system.

hot_rod

The less you purge and add new fresh water, the better. Every time you add new water you add scaling minerals and air which contains O2. O2 cause corrosion of the ferrous components, magnetite formation.

If it is filled, pressurized and circulating let it run for a week.

You are sure there are no leaks in the system? if pressure continues to drop after all air is expelled, you have another project.

Why the glycol? it's a tough fluid. Tougher to pump, tougher to remove air, less heat transfer, and about a 30% larger expansion capacity required. It takes testing and occasional inhibitor boost.

i'd use it only if you have outside wall or outside piping.

If freezing is a concern, running constant circulation as suggested can handle that also, should the boiler fail.

Of course domestic water pipes freeze also

danwheeler

hot_rod said:

Why the glycol? it's a tough fluid. Tougher to pump, tougher to remove air, less heat transfer, and about a 30% larger expansion capacity required. It takes testing and occasional inhibitor boost.

I'd use it only if you have outside wall or outside piping.

Yeah... well.. not an outside wall... how about an outside floor? (see below)

interesting about the 30% expansion on glycol. Maybe that's why I need a bigger tank and why my kit supplier uses a 1-gallon. He was insistent on me using plain old water.

I think straight water is too risky given my floating floor and being in a place where the power could go out for days or weeks in the middle of winter. It's sort of a vacation home with plans to move in some day but for now, I'm not always there to start a stove fire or know the power went out. I could probably reduce the ratio. Is it worth pumping in some distilled water to replace some of the antifreeze to help with efficiency? Temps aren't likely to go below 5 or 10 where I'm at.

You wouldn't believe the trouble we went to to run the domestic water and power up through the middle of one of the columns and the sewage down through the middle of another. That's a whole other story. I've got a drain-waste valve in the ground that will let me drain all the water out if I leave for an extended time during winter.

danwheeler

mattmia2 said:

the air in the system is compressible, the fluid is not. air in the system will help somewhat with an inadequate expansion tank. there were some old systems where they intentionally left some air in radiators to allow for expansion. the expansion tank adds air to the system to be compressed by the expansion of the fluid. it has a diaphragm that keeps the air from being able to dissolve in the fluid, but it essentially is just adding air to the system

This was part of why i didn't think you had much air in the system because it would have kept the pressure from rising much with temp if there were a lot of air in the system.

Ah, I see... ok yeah, I guess my theory doesn't add up then. Must be the 30% glycol expansion that Bob mentioned that goofed things up with the 1-gallon?

Daveinscranton

I have avoided glycol unless for snow melt in a driveway/walkway.   After that picture, and you being away,  I would love glycol. 

HomerJSmith

Living in that house would scare me. The columns may take the load but I worry about the shear. The Loma Prieta earthquake shows freeway support columns with fractured concrete with exposed rebar. I would be bracing that house against lateral shear.

danwheeler

HomerJSmith said:

Living in that house would scare me. The columns may take the load but I worry about the shear. The Loma Prieta earthquake shows freeway support columns with fractured concrete with exposed rebar. I would be bracing that house against lateral shear.

oh, I have so many stores to tell about those columns... We would need a whole new forum called concretecolumnshelp.com to discuss

We lost 6 months of construction on those concrete columns. I'd forgotten about that earthquake in 89. I took a look at some of the bridge collapse pictures and noticed something relevant to my columns. When the foundation crew was setting up the rebar, I took some pictures and sent them to my engineer in Seattle. He immediately noticed that they didn't use closed-end ties. Those are the circular rings around the columns of rebar and closed ends means the ends of the rebar rings turn inward about 2-3" to embed inside the concrete and prevent them from expanding out in an earthquake. We had them replace all the ties which took months.

With those replaced, they finally did the pour while I was gone and as soon as I showed up the next week I noticed some of the columns were crooked or curved. The sonotube had sat out all winter, got wet and deformed. The concrete crew was also just plain sloppy on their setup. It was a massive ordeal between me, my builder and the concrete guys. Months of arguing and planning for repair. I was going to have them tear down 2 of the crooked columns but then I found another that I was able to stick a magnet to the side of because they had not centered the rebar inside the sonotube despite me asking them over and over again to make sure it was centered before they pour. There was almost no concrete coverage due to the rebar being crooked inside the sonotube. So I had them tear down 3 out of 6 of the columns.

Going back to those earthquake pictures of the bridge in California, it looks like the columns that sheared did not have any lateral rebar ties. I'd bet current codes have something to do with that and maybe that's why those columns on the bridge failed so badly.

I wouldn't be too surprised if I see some concrete damage or cracking if we get a big earthquake but knowing what's inside those columns, I feel OK with it. Each column has 12 pieces of #6 longitudinal rebar (nearly as many as those bridge columns from the looks of it) and lateral ties every 4-1/2" or so. I hope it's engineered to support a lot more than it has to.

Jamie Hall

I wasn't going to comment on the columns...

Did you have a qualified Professional Engineer design those columns, their reinforcement, and the moment connections, top and bottom? In your application, the top and bottom connections are moment resisting, or need to be, and and, most likely the weakest part of the structure. Unless those pictures were taken before all the rebar at the tops of the columns was in place, I don't see moment resisting rebar at the tops at least.

And that would worry me...

danwheeler

Sure, it's all engineered and stamped to a tee. Whether or not it got built exactly the way it was designed... that's been a struggle the entire way. It's close but not exact which worries me but whaddya gonna do?

This project has been a nightmare from the very beginning, it's been going for over 2 years now. I should have just built an A-frame

danwheeler

Getting back to my new heating system, it seems like it is short cycling. I've got a camera on it and I have some fancy home automation stuff logging the on/off cycles and I can see that it's turning on, running for a minute or two, then turning back off again and at 2-3 minute intervals. I've confirmed this on the camera over the last day since I left. The thermostat is showing a rock solid 70 degrees, never any deviation up or down. It's obviously picking up some tenths or hundredths of a degree changes causing it to cycle.

That kind of consistency is really cool but I'm not sure it's good for the system. Seems like there should be a little more swing and time between cycles. I'm amazed it can keep up with my windows with such little "on time". I guess it's short but frequent enough to keep that slab warm. It doesn't even run long enough for the boiler output to hit it's set point of 130.

I'm using a Honeywell Lyric T6 thermostat mounted in the main room with all the windows. I can't find any adjustments in the app for it.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

I just received a Honeywell T9 thermostat but haven't installed it. I got it because it has wireless remote sensors and I forgot to put an empty tube in the slab for a remote wired sensor.

hot_rod

Which model boiler do you have? the "H" version has a modulating feature which helps lessen that short cycling. As the home approaches temperature setpoint you can expect it to cycle on and off if it is a fixed output version.

Curious about the heat load on that beautiful home

danwheeler

hot_rod said:

Which model boiler do you have? the "H" version has a modulating feature which helps lessen that short cycling. As the home approaches temperature setpoint you can expect it to cycle on and off if it is a fixed output version.

Curious about the heat load on that beautiful home

It's the EMB-S-9 so I guess it won't have that H-model modulating feature.

So are you saying this on and off every few minutes is normal and expected? It's a lot of clicking... that's going to drive me nuts. The thermostat clicks on which sends a signal to the pump controller to click on and also a signal to the boiler which clicks a few times as it turns on and goes through its stages.

Should I lower the temperature on the boiler? I found contractor mode on my Honeywell iPhone app that I think would let me adjust some thermostat settings remotely but I don't want to mess anything up with the thermostat when I'm 2 hours and a mountain pass away.

I just watched it cycle on for about 10 seconds on my camera, then off for 10 seconds then back on again. That thermostat is doing crazy stuff. It wasn't doing that when I left. I'm getting some sun through those windows right now, I wonder if its getting confused. I think it might be set for forced air, I never went through setup after switching from my temporary electric forced air heater I was using during construction.

hot_rod

It's probably not the wall thermostat causing it to cycle on and off but the thermostat inside the boiler that controls its temperature. When the heat load is small the boiler still only has on speed, full speed ahead.

To know that for sure, remove thermostat wires in the boiler or relay and jumper that TT. That gives the boiler a permeant call. If it cycles still, it is the boiler control doing it's thing.

Two options to lessen the cycling is to modulate the boiler, or add a buffer tank as a bit of a thermal "'flywheel".

Or get some silent relay/ contactors for inside the boiler

danwheeler

hot_rod said:

Curious about the heat load on that beautiful home

Thanks, I'm real curious too... I'm real curious about my electric bill!

The rest of the house has very few windows. The exterior walls are standard 2x6 with 2" of closed cell foam and the remainder filled with blown-in insulation. The roof is 2x12 joists with 4" of closed cell foam and the rest filled with batts. Below the 3" slab are I-joists with 10-12" inch batts.

danwheeler

hot_rod said:

It's probably not the wall thermostat causing it to cycle on and off

Pretty sure it's the thermostat going on and off. I can see it in my thermostat logs and my camera is watching the pump controller which is only controlled by the thermostat. And the pump controller controls the pump and the boiler.

Thermostat -> Pump Controller -> Pump and Boiler

The thermostat is at the top of the chain and it's what's determines the pump and boiler turning on and off. Or am I not understanding you correctly? Or do I have the system wired in a weird way?

here's my thermostat log. You can see it turns on for a minute or two then off again. And even at that, my logging is not capturing all the on/off cycles because some of them are shorter than a minute and my home automation is only calling the Honeywell API every 1 minute so I don't capture cycles shorter than a minute. But I've been watching them happen on my camera