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Canada has a realistic approach to

hot_rod
hot_rod Member Posts: 15,066
electrification. They are promoting hybrid systems. Leave or install the gas or oil equipment to cover loads when the HP cannot, or will not efficiently. The also helps to not alienate the fossil fuel folks :)

This is common in Europe also, Caleffi, for one has had products developed for piping hybrid systems for 5 or so years now. The valve shuttles based on outdoor temperature or based on time of day electricity costs.

See screen shots from a recent issue of Mechanical Business mag.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream
JakeCK

Comments

  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,390
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  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 403
    edited November 23
    I could see banning it in new construction. That will force builders to build better where a HP can meet the demand at all temperatures. Also doesn't Quebec have really cheap electricity on par with NG?

    My biggest concern with HP's is how destructive the refrigerant can be. r410 has like what, 4000x the heat trapping potential of CO2?
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,066
    JakeCK said:
    I could see banning it in new construction. That will force builders to build better where a HP can meet the demand at all temperatures. Also doesn't Quebec have really cheap electricity on par with NG?

    My biggest concern with HP's is how destructive the refrigerant can be. r410 has like what, 4000x the heat trapping potential of CO2?

    New refrigerants are becoming available as HFCs are being phased out. Opteon claims zero ozone depletion, ODP and ultra low global warming potential GWP.
    ideally the refrigerant stays inside the systems :)

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 403
    hot_rod said:
     ideally the refrigerant stays inside the systems :)
    That would be ideal, but after taking my old fridge and window ac's to a scrap yard, that told me they recovered all refrigerant, only to watch them use a backhoe to scoop them up... I'm less than optimistic.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,066
    edited November 24
    JakeCK said:


    hot_rod said:
     ideally the refrigerant stays inside the systems :)

    That would be ideal, but after taking my old fridge and window ac's to a scrap yard, that told me they recovered all refrigerant, only to watch them use a backhoe to scoop them up... I'm less than optimistic.

    Yeah and some people still dump old motor oil in their back yards. Toss litter out their windows and in parking lots...
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 403
    hot_rod said:
    Yeah and some people still dump old motor oil in their back yards. Toss litter out their windows and in parking lots...
    Don't get me wrong, I still believe this is part of the solution. Just that we need better mitigation for old refrigeration systems. 

    I actually tried to have these old systems recycled responsibly. In Ohio its damn hard for a homeowner. Sure I could put them out on the curb for bulk pickup. As long as the fridge had the doors off. Perfectly legal and easy. Garbage truck comes and picks it up with the rest of the bulk and smashes it in the back. And all that refrigerant goes straight up into the atmosphere. 

    First Energy used to have a recycling program where they would pay you 50$ for your old appliances... The program was cancelled and the company they partnered with to recycle them went bankrupt years ago. I wouldn't even care about the 50$. Them picking it up and saving me the effort of carrying it out to my truck was worth it all on its own.
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,719
    Montreal had a bad experience when ice storm downed transmission to city.
    QuebecHydro had paid homeowners to trash furnaces. So no heat even with a small generator sufficient to keep furnace going.

    Regarding new construction issue is a bit about nothing but symbolism. Since late eighties Canadian houses are built to Canada2000 standards so they don't need much heating energy. Some are mostly heated with a heat pump ERV. Those tight Canada2000 homes require ERV. How much energy do they consume?
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 203
    My biggest concern with HP's is how destructive the refrigerant can be. r410 has like what, 4000x the heat trapping potential of CO2?


    It's high, but refrigerant doesn't matter if the house is planning for AC anyway.
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 403
    My biggest concern with HP's is how destructive the refrigerant can be. r410 has like what, 4000x the heat trapping potential of CO2?
    It's high, but refrigerant doesn't matter if the house is planning for AC anyway.
    That is true. 

    But one could argue that everyone getting ac has had an outsized contribution to our climates destruction too. Right there along with the automobile and national highway system.
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 403
    edited November 24
    jumper said:
    Montreal had a bad experience when ice storm downed transmission to city. QuebecHydro had paid homeowners to trash furnaces. So no heat even with a small generator sufficient to keep furnace going. Regarding new construction issue is a bit about nothing but symbolism. Since late eighties Canadian houses are built to Canada2000 standards so they don't need much heating energy. Some are mostly heated with a heat pump ERV. Those tight Canada2000 homes require ERV. How much energy do they consume?
    To run just a ERV? However much it takes to run a blower. Maybe between 50 to 300 watts depending on size? I wish my house had one. But no duct work and its as air tight as a sieve. The HP depends on heating load and size of the building.
    Hot_water_fan
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 203
    But one could argue that everyone getting ac has had an outsized contribution to our climates destruction too. Right there along with the automobile and national highway system.
    Totally, but we have to meet people where they are. If they want AC, doubtful anyone can change their minds. At least the grid can be cleaned up quickly. Plus, where I live the heat kills and is only getting worse.
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 403
    But one could argue that everyone getting ac has had an outsized contribution to our climates destruction too. Right there along with the automobile and national highway system.
    Totally, but we have to meet people where they are. If they want AC, doubtful anyone can change their minds. At least the grid can be cleaned up quickly. Plus, where I live the heat kills and is only getting worse.
    Not disagreeing just stating my feelings on it being a race to the bottom.
    Hot_water_fan
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,307
    I live 20 minutes from the Canadian border in Maine. We saw a huge influx of Canada built pre-fab houses brought across the boarder back in the 90s when the Canadian dollar was weak and the US dollar was strong. 

    Many of those homes were setup locally, and I've worked in more than a few. I can tell that exactly 3 have had the ERV still plugged in. 

    Yes, they are relatively tight compared the much of the existing structures. But, all have conventional oil boilers and fin tube...and I do mean all. That was the rage back then. 

    They all consume around 800-1000 gallons of oil per season, on par with most other homes of comparable size here in climate zone 7. 

    So, I'm not buying all the super energy efficient stuff about Canadian housing. Granted this is modular housing in 2-4 sections, brought over on a truck and put together on site. 

    There are much better ways to build. 
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
    Robert O'Brien
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,066

    I live 20 minutes from the Canadian border in Maine. We saw a huge influx of Canada built pre-fab houses brought across the boarder back in the 90s when the Canadian dollar was weak and the US dollar was strong. 

    Many of those homes were setup locally, and I've worked in more than a few. I can tell that exactly 3 have had the ERV still plugged in. 

    Yes, they are relatively tight compared the much of the existing structures. But, all have conventional oil boilers and fin tube...and I do mean all. That was the rage back then. 

    They all consume around 800-1000 gallons of oil per season, on par with most other homes of comparable size here in climate zone 7. 

    So, I'm not buying all the super energy efficient stuff about Canadian housing. Granted this is modular housing in 2-4 sections, brought over on a truck and put together on site. 

    There are much better ways to build. 

    Building and even hydronic codes seem more developed up north. I think current builds are fairly tight by code mandate.
    Canada claims to have the cleanest electricity, 80% from non emitting sources, 58% from hydro.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,985
    edited November 24
    @JakeCK You're not going to be happy when I tell you my 1933 and 1934 refrigerators are still using their original refrigerants and that refrigerant has both 0 ODP and 0 GWP.

    It also works very well.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Rich_49Solid_Fuel_Man
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 403
    ChrisJ said:
    @JakeCK You're not going to be happy when I tell you my 1933 and 1934 refrigerators are still using their original refrigerants and that refrigerant has both 0 ODP and 0 GWP.

    It also works very well.
    Old monitor tops? Why would I not be happy? Sulfer dioxide correct? It is amazing it is still working. But also back in the 30's they over built appliances. Today they engineer them with a MTTF in mind. 

    I have even heard those things were actually more efficient than modern refrigerators from just a few decades ago. No auto defrost, ice makers, or other fancy gadgets, and thick insulation... 
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,719
    ChrisJ said:

    @JakeCK You're not going to be happy when I tell you my 1933 and 1934 refrigerators are still using their original refrigerants and that refrigerant has both 0 ODP and 0 GWP.

    It also works very well.
    sulphur dioxide? Propane is also pretty environmental I guess? I wonder how often somebody drops in fuel grade propane into R22 machine and then how often does a problem ensue.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 17,165
    There is quite a variety of refrigerants available. In fact, almost anything which has usable boiling point and condensing points within reasonable pressure ranges will work...

    Problem is to find ones which aren't toxic or flammable or both.

    On building codes and better or stricter here or there. Right. If rigorously applied, they may work well -- for new construction. What all the starry eyed types out there tend to forget is that there is a very large inventory of existing built construction, and a lot of their "solutions" are not helpful.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Solid_Fuel_ManIronman
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,985
    JakeCK said:
    ChrisJ said:
    @JakeCK You're not going to be happy when I tell you my 1933 and 1934 refrigerators are still using their original refrigerants and that refrigerant has both 0 ODP and 0 GWP.

    It also works very well.
    Old monitor tops? Why would I not be happy? Sulfer dioxide correct? It is amazing it is still working. But also back in the 30's they over built appliances. Today they engineer them with a MTTF in mind. 

    I have even heard those things were actually more efficient than modern refrigerators from just a few decades ago. No auto defrost, ice makers, or other fancy gadgets, and thick insulation... 
    jumper said:
    @JakeCK You're not going to be happy when I tell you my 1933 and 1934 refrigerators are still using their original refrigerants and that refrigerant has both 0 ODP and 0 GWP.

    It also works very well.
    sulphur dioxide? Propane is also pretty environmental I guess? I wonder how often somebody drops in fuel grade propane into R22 machine and then how often does a problem ensue.
    No, while we do have a few here that use SO2 that's most certainly a greenhouse gas with a high gwp.

    Methyl formate is the one I'm speaking of.


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,985
    edited November 24
    @Jamie Hall my machines use both toxic and flammable refrigerants and it's really not a huge thing in my life except maybe during servicing.

    See, they tend to stay in the machines especially if they're made correctly.  Even after 80-90 years.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,307
    edited November 25
    I do think Canada has a sensible approach to this. That said it is a frustrating thing that Maine...you know the state of a thousand lakes....has removed pretty much all of their existing hydro dams. And now we import Canadian "clean electricity" which comes from....you guessed it hydro. 

    We used to have many low head hydro dams here in my area some used to power mills, and were converted to electric in the 50s. Now they are all gone, and we have no generation left....other than incremental wind and solar, which is heavily subsidized. 

    And for the icing.....we got a state wide notice that our electric rates are going up 80% as of January 1, 2022. 

    I'll keep burning wood and using less than 200 watts to run my entire gasification boiler system. 

    I'd bet it's over 75% of mini-splits which leak out at least 1 full charge of r410a in their lifetime. I'm so sick of replacing outdoor coils. 
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,985
    I do think Canada has a sensible approach to this. That said it is a frustrating thing that Maine...you know the state of a thousand lakes....has removed pretty much all of their existing hydro dams. And now we import Canadian "clean electricity" which comes from....you guessed it hydro. 

    We used to have many low head hydro dams here in my area some used to power mills, and were converted to electric in the 50s. Now they are all gone, and we have no generation left....other than incremental wind and solar, which is heavily subsidized. 

    And for the icing.....we got a state wide notice that our electric rates are going up 80% as of January 1, 2022. 

    I'll keep burning wood and using less than 200 watts to run my entire gasification boiler system. 

    I'd bet it's over 75% of mini-splits which leak out at least 1 full charge of r410a in their lifetime. I'm so sick of replacing outdoor coils. 
    From what I've seen refrigerators, mini fridges, dehumidifiers, ice makers etc are all doing the same now.

    The days of hermetic systems going forever without a leak appear to be gone with everyone pointing fingers.

    We're not allowed to vent refrigerant but manufacturers can do it all day long I guess.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment