Steam heat dangerous in baseboards?

Bustario

I just purchased a home with a steam boiler (Peerless). Most of the house has old fashion radiators but an additional has several baseboard heaters. The heating company came out to do a cleaning and warned that the baseboards were intended for hot water heating and not steam and is encouraging us to change them. We were left with two impressions.

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First, these baseboards are for hot water so cannot safely have the pressure of steam.

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Two, they are not as efficient as the cast iron radiators we have in the rest of the house so we are not getting the benefit of why steam is so good.

Are we in danger using these water baseboards with a steam system? That would make me do this change more quickly. If not and it is simply about the efficiency, we would wait a season to see how it feels.
Thanks for your advice.

pecmsg

It is possible the baseboards are indeed Hot Water but supplied by the steam boiler.

Time to find a Steam Contractor.

https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/

Jamie Hall

I agree with @pecmsg -- time to find a steam contractor.

But a few comments. First, there are a number of places which use steam in baseboards If your heating company is not aware of that, frankly I'm unimpressed by your heating company. Now it is quite true that it is somewhat difficult to get them to heat well and quietly, but by no means impossible. Second, as @pecmsg said it's quite possible that they are hot water, fed by the steam boiler. That's not an uncommon arrangement either -- and again your heating company should be aware of that possibility.

Third, I sort of have to laugh at the comment that the baseboards are meant for hot water and so cannot stand the pressure of steam. Since steam runs at at most 1 or 2 psi, and hot water runs at at the very least 10 time that pressure, I hope whoever made that comment never has to repair anything more complex than perhaps a coffee pot. Old fashioned drip coffee pot.

Fourth. They are -- hot water or steam -- just as efficient. Hot is hot. What they may not do is hold heat as long as a standup radiator.

Fifth you are in no danger using them as long as they last -- which will be decades. If it is your heating contractor warning you about the dangers of baseboards, however, you are in considerable danger using that company...

KC_Jones

Post some pictures of the baseboard so we can see what style they are, we can then comment more intelligently about your questions.

Steam runs at significantly lower pressure than hot water, so that is absolutely not an issue.

Baseboard, in general, is tricky on steam due to the pipe size, and drainage. If they are installed, they should always be installed like 2 pipe system to allow the condensate to drain more freely. Most of the people that come on here with steam baseboard complain about poor performance, banging, or spitting water. All those things are why the baseboard is tricky on steam and generally not recommended.

SlamDunk

I have installed several baseboards on my steam system. If you have two pipe stem, it is pretty easy. One pipe steam and base boards are a little tricky but not impossible. No danger as long an the Genie stays inside the system. And even if he escapes, your pressure should be low (<2psi) and there should be a valve to stop the steam.

Bustario

Wow. You guys are fast and good. Here are a couple of pics from the listing. I am not there to get close ups of the ends but I know they have small steam valves (at least I think they are) that look like what is on the cast iron radiators in the house. The system is a single pipe system that comes out of the boiler and heads all around the unfinished cellar. Do these pics help?

retiredguy

Baseboard radiation can and is used for both steam and hot water mediums. Cast iron baseboard is not usually recommended for use with a one pipe steam system but I have seen it installed that way with very poor performance and is usually very noisy. It is recommended to be used on a two (2) pipe steam system or with a hot water system. Finned tube baseboard radiation using either steel piping or copper tubing for the medium supply can be used with a two (2) pipe steam steam, a hot water system, and in some cases a one(1) pipe steam steam system. On a one pipe steam system you must follow the guide lines and instructions to the letter to get good results. The warnings expressed by the HVAC company that did the service on your boiler were not necessary and were in my mind "stupid". As others have said, "it is time to call someone else". As far as your comfort is concerned, cast iron radiation either baseboard or standing cast iron radiators will work better than finned tube radiation since the cast iron radiation will yield radiant heating, think of the sun's warmth, in addition to the convection heat that you get from either one. One last thing, if you are going to mix finned tube radiation and cast iron radiation each area should be zoned since each has it's own way to heat.

SlamDunk

Not the baseboards I had in mind but everything @retiredguy said applies. If it were my system, and heating was insufficient, I would investigate putting a recirc pump and circulate boiler water through your baseboards on a separate thermostat.

Jamie Hall

Those should be OK. The real criteria are first, does it heat and second, is it reasonably quiet? If it's OK on those two, you're fine just as you are. If it's a little noisy -- gurgles, clanks -- there are ways to fix that. Ditto if it doesn't heat.

Let us know!

EBEBRATT-Ed

Baseboards are completely safe for a steam system. If you get satisfactory heat from them then you are fine. Leave them alone

Bu they wouldn't be my first choice for steam. Try it and see. It depends who and how they are installed

Greybeard

The original poster wrote "The system is a single pipe system that comes out of the boiler and heads all around the unfinished cellar". This sounds like a hot water loop run off a steam boiler. It not only works well, but I am being kept warm by that sort of system as I write . The convectors in my basement look the same too.

Find a real steam contractor.

Bustario

Many thanks for your help here. I think I have enough to go on for now. I am going to see how it works for this coming winter. If changes are needed, they will happen after we try this system out.

pecmsg

Please
get a Steam contractor in to go through the entire “System”. It could be perfectly safe. We need eyes on the job. 

Where is this house located?

neilc

post a picture or 3 of the boiler, floor to ceiling, and of any pumps down there,
(I'm surprised no one else asked)

Bustario

The house is in Dutchess County NY and I will take some pics when I am next there. We are not yet able to live in it.

pecmsg

Every Plumber, Heating contractor I've dealt with Does NOT know or like Steam. You really need a contractor that KNOWS what there working on.

archibald tuttle

@Bustario I don't see any pictures of the near boiler piping which might reveal whether boiler water is pumped from the boiler through check valve to service that baseboard and/or the steam mains with the take offs (and return if any) to/from the baseboard. While this may be a one pipe system, there are ways to create a two pipe approach for the baseboard vs. a closed end with an air valve which would be more similar in approach to a radiator. one simple hint regarding the hyrdronic/steam hybrid possibility is whether there is an separate thermostat in the addition. if so, it's quite likely to be a hybrid.

How long ago was the addition added. you can inquire of seller re their experience of operation, i.e. noise, comfort, etc.

aside from proper venting and condensate drainage the other point made by folks is that the key difference is thermal mass so the areas that have cast iron radiators will still be receiving heat from the radiator for a longer time after the heating cycle than the baseboard – although sometimes recent additions are better insulated and constructed to more modern standards for limiting drafts in numerous critical areas so there can be a balance in that regard.

ps, see @neilc asked similarly.

Bustario

OK, Guys. Here are the pictures you asked for. I am including the baseboard pics with a close up of the end caps. Also, numerous pics of the actual boiler. Let me know your thoughts.

Bustario

And here are the radiators.

pecmsg

Bad near boiler piping
Probably oversized
heating contractor did the work, not a steam contractor. 

Find a steam contractor 

neilc

can we see one more of this picture, from the top of the boiler to the ceiling, showing that diagonal pipe and above

what pressure do you see on the gage when she's running
how dirty is that water in the sightglass, picture

Bustario said:

neilc

and what's leaking there at the sightglass?

retiredguy

As I said in an earlier post, you can almost never use finned tube baseboard with cast iron radiators and get satisfactory results due to the way each one heats it's space. The only way you will get satisfactory results with even heating in all spaces is to zone each type separately. Your best outcome would be to zone each separately or to replace the finned tube with cast iron radiators. One last item, it looks as if the finned tube baseboard is for hot water or two pipe steam only and not for one pipe steam, since the delivery tubing is too small. For baseboard radiation to work on a one pipe steam system, the steam delivery tube should be 2" steel or copper tubing or 1&1/2" for a short piece of baseboard. As the other guys have wrote, the "near boiler piping" is not correct and should be replaced. You need a service company that is well versed in steam heating. Look for a company that has a few older guts since most of the young guys are only versed in hot water heating.