1933 Tudor with 2 pipe vapor system

Steamhead

jalagna said:

Some room in front and top but, on the opposite side of where the picture is taken it’s tight on a beam

Is it actually a joist ("beam"), or just a piece of wood nailed between two other joists to form a box?

How much clearance at the top, in case we have to elbow over?

JUGHNE

A chain wrench might grab it at an angle on the large lower body.

mattmia2

oh, look, another 8 point vent.

should be able to grab it with a large cresscent wrench on a little bit of an angle or an open end wrench on the lower flats. there are special thin open end wrenches if the gap is too small.

looks like they chiseled a little off the joist/blocking/header out to get clearance to screw it in. Is that a joist or just blocking or heading something off?

JUGHNE

That vent looks connected to some short of special tee....the directional arrow.

Is this a special fitting for this system?

neilc

oh no, another HW system, monoflow, converted to steam ?

JUGHNE

There looks to be too many "old" steam components and the supply pipes looks too big for HW. IMO

Steamhead

JUGHNE said:

That vent looks connected to some short of special tee....the directional arrow.

Is this a special fitting for this system?

Yes. There is an orifice inside, which IIRC was there to direct steam from the Loop onto the thermal element in the #15 vent.

neilc said:

oh no, another HW system, monoflow, converted to steam ?

Nope.

JUGHNE

Sort of like a "steam scoop"?

Similar hub coloring on the tee below the square box on the differential loop.

jalagna

What’s the right vent to replace with? Can I abandon this and add somewhere else? And last is there anyway I can tap it or something and maybe it with free up or do you think it seized? I’m sure it hasn’t worked in a long time and it’s probably original to house. If I did replace, would this elevate banging and other issues? 

delcrossv

That's snaggable with an offset pipe wrench or a basin wrench as mentioned above.

Jamie Hall

jalagna said:

What’s the right vent to replace with? Can I abandon this and add somewhere else? And last is there anyway I can tap it or something and maybe it with free up or do you think it seized? I’m sure it hasn’t worked in a long time and it’s probably original to house. If I did replace, would this elevate banging and other issues? 

They didn't do you any favours at all, did they? I suspect @Steamhead is right, and that is -- or was -- a #15. That, unhappily, is obsolete, and was one big vent (half again bigger than the size of a Gorton #2, more or less).

Before you get happy with wrenches, then, step one is going to be to find out whether it is still working. Don't write it off right away. Not only were those vents big, they were tough. How do you do that? Really not at all hard. Get a low pressure gauge -- if there isn't one already -- on the boiler and, after you have chased down other problems like stuck traps (either way -- especially crossovers) fire it up and watch that pressure gauge. What you are hoping to see is that the pressure will rise -- maybe not much, maybe to a few ounces, and then almost stabiliose and just sit there give or take an ounce or two, while the steam fills the system and all the radiators. This may take quite a while and try your patience severely -- in the system in my signature line it takes about 45 minutes to an hour before anything starts to happen, during which time all the radiation is pretty well full but the pressure is stable. Then, at some point, you will note the pressure starting to rise again. (That pressure is worth noting, as that is when you want the vapourstat to turn off the boiler -- should be just below seven ounces or so).

If that is the way things happen, put the wrenches away and go do something else. That old #15 is working just fine. Leave it alone.

Now let us suppose that it isn't working. You ask three questions: what is the right vent to replace it with, and can it go somewhere else? The answer to the first question is simple -- two Gorton #2s will do nicely, if you can get them to fit.

Can you put the venting somewhere else? Not if you want the Differential Loop to still be functional, which you really do as the Loop does three useful things for you -- although if your vapourstat is set correctly, it will do much the same three things. First, it keeps the pressure differential where it belongs, and thus the steam delivery to the various radiators nicely balanced. Second, it keeps the pressure differential where it belongs, and tush keeps the traps happy (it's not unusual to see 100 year old traps in a Hoffman Equipeed System which are just fine, thank you). Third, it keeps the pressure differential where it belongs, and thus keeps water from backing from the boiler through the wet returns into the dry returns and steam mains, which is not what you want at all.

Third, you ask will the change alleviate the banging and other problems? Probably not, at least not the banging. If you are getting overpressure in the boiler contributing to the problems, it might even make them worse.

What to do! Assuming that the poor old vent really is dead, all is not lost, but some ingenuity is going to be needed. Consider that the reason the Differential Loop works is that if there is an overpressure, the Loop allows steam to pass into the dry return to which the vent is attached and shut the vent (that's the only time the vent will shut), thus pressurizing the dry return etc. etc. Ideally the vent will be very close to the Loop, and thus close very quickly. You clearly may not have room for a Gorton #2 right there, never mind two of them -- but is there a convenient drip to a wet return nearby? If so, you can put a street el on that T and go over just far enough to run a pipe down next to the dry return, using a 90. Go down just far enough to place a T and a horizontal off the leg of the T, on which you mount your new vents. Continue the other end of the run of the T down and tie it into the drip below the water line of the boiler. Unconventional? Oh yeah. Will it work? Most likely.

Steamhead

That's not a #15 vent. It's either a #75 or #76, and is not original to the system.

You can see the #15 vent on page 15 of this PDF file:

https://heatinghelp.com/assets/documents/Hoffman-Heating-Equipment.pdf

jalagna

After the winter season, I plan on doing some extensive work to the house including a new heating system. Should I just leave as is? 

Steamhead

You don't want to tear that system out.

Jamie Hall

If it really is a 75, one Gorton #2 would do. What did you think of my idea on how to fit one in, @Steamhead ? You're the expert -- not me.

And now I am horrified, @jalagna . Why on earth would you want to tear that system out -- the best heating system you could possibly have, and far better than anything you could afford to put in today?

KC_Jones

jalagna said:

After the winter season, I plan on doing some extensive work to the house including a new heating system. Should I just leave as is? 

Why, just why? It's not our house, not our money, but I see this on this website often and the only question I have is why.

The full cost of tearing it out, fixing everything and putting in a new system of equal or better quality just never made sense to me. It's a huge expense for minimal if any gain.

Now if you are downgrading to forced hot air, I still don't understand sacrificing the comfort, but then the cost sort of, kind of starts making sense. Make no mistake, forced air is a downgrade from what you have.

delcrossv

Why not a B&J Big Mouth? With the union on them there's plenty of room in there .

As for replacing the system....

JUGHNE

B&J Big Mouth have no float, they can pass some water.
I had some up on 4' risers and they did dribble a little water out.

And yes, I certainly would keep the steam system.
Someone will say the piping has to be ready to rust thru.. myself and many others here have opened 100+ year old steam piping and it looks better than what you buy today.

Pipes below the water line are another story. May need replaced after 50 years or so.

jalagna

Thanks for all the comments! You guys are awesome! The house needs lots of TLC and the basement needs to be gutted and finished. To upgrade the entire house and leave this heating system, would be tough no? The piping has to be rerouted if not changed and I feel it would be really difficult to try and do so. It’s a descent size house so wouldn’t having multiple zones help with cost savings instead of just one? I really need someone to come have a look and go over my options. 

Steamhead

So let me get this straight- you came here asking for help on your system, and got it, only to then tell us you're going to rip it out anyway?

What is wrong with keeping a superior form of heating instead of going to one that is less comfortable and less efficient?

Why would the basement piping "have" to be rerouted?

delcrossv

jalagna said:

Thanks for all the comments! You guys are awesome! The house needs lots of TLC and the basement needs to be gutted and finished. To upgrade the entire house and leave this heating system, would be tough no? The piping has to be rerouted if not changed and I feel it would be really difficult to try and do so. It’s a descent size house so wouldn’t having multiple zones help with cost savings instead of just one? I really need someone to come have a look and go over my options. 

. With your system, each radiator is a zone. Hard to beat that.

Upgrade the heating system to what? That's the question. Hard to upgrade over what you already have.

There are worse things than having nicely insulated steam pipes in a finished basement. IMHO.

Keep the 1920's vibe- it's a plus. 👍

jalagna

I came here asking for advice as well as seeking some
Knowledge about my house. I’m not Ripping anything out until I have done my research. What would be the best way to go about adding a HW radiant zone and if that’s to difficult how would you recommend heating a new kitchen, and mudroom expansion? 

delcrossv

If you have enough pickup on your steam boiler, you can add a heat exchanger and a aquastat and run your radiant off that.
Or cast baseboard or radiators off your two pipe system.

You have choices but you'll need to figure additional load first.

mattmia2

jalagna said:

I came here asking for advice as well as seeking some
Knowledge about my house. I’m not Ripping anything out until I have done my research. What would be the best way to go about adding a HW radiant zone and if that’s to difficult how would you recommend heating a new kitchen, and mudroom expansion? 

Use the hot water in the boiler for those zones. Probably want to use a hx or a tankless coil as a hx if it is radiant because the dirt in the boiler water could be problematic.

Steamhead

Why not heat the kitchen and mudroom with steam, assuming they're on the first floor?

Jamie Hall

As has been said, running a hot water zone or radiant floors or both off your existing steam system is really simple -- and not expensive, either. It's a very rare steam system which doesn't have enough spare capacity to handle even a fairly large load.

The steam pipes in the basement are another matter, however. A really well qualified steam craftsman can often reroute pipes somewhat to eliminate or at least reduce problems, but steam isn't as flexible that way as hot water would be. Thus this is much more an aesthetic, comfort, and budget problem than anything else, and that is something the individual homeowner has to think about. For some people, the convenience or look of an uncluttered basement overhead outweighs the expense and loss of comfort which converting to anything else will entail. For others -- and, frankly, for most of us on the Wall -- having the comfort and simplicity of a steam system is preferable. But we can't make that decision for you.

JUGHNE

It is hard to picture a 1933 Tudor without cast iron radiators....it would seem to lose some of its soul.

Like some houses that lose their masonry chimney, looks like an amputation of charm. IMO

jalagna

Converting to HW, using rads. 

Jamie Hall

jalagna said:

Converting to HW, using rads. 

Good luck. Even if the existing radiators will work for hot water (not all will) and don't leak under the extra pressure (30 times that of the steam)(some will) you have a lot of work to do on them, as well as total repiping. Further, check to be sure that the radiators are big enough. Radiators with hot water are capable of, at the most, only about two thirds of the output they produce with steam. Do your sums. Is there going to be enough radiation to keep the spaces warm?

It has been our general experience over the decades -- whether we favour steam or hot water or something else -- that these conversions are rarely satisfactory, and that they tend to cost major dollars.

Pumpguy

@jalagna, Just FYI, for the same heat output as your steam system, you will need to increase the radiation area by 40%, or so I'm told. This is due to the difference in temperature between steam and hot water.

delcrossv

Easier to just pipe the addition for steam and add a new main vent.
As pumpguy says, do the sums. You 'll need to almost double your emitters- to what end?

jalagna

This keeps tripping, anyone know why and if it is bad can I jump it out until I get a new one? 

bburd

That is the primary safety control for your oil burner. Tripping usually indicates something wrong with the burner (poor ignition; clogged nozzle, filter or fuel line, etc.) and only one attempt should be made to reset it. If it trips a second time, call a competent service technician.

No, you cannot bypass it and you should never ignore it. It is saving your house from a possible “puff back” and fire due to delayed ignition of fuel oil.

If it is repeatedly reset, unburned fuel can build up inside your boiler and be a terrible mess to fix.

Jamie Hall

Ilike the "terrible mess to fix". Assuming you can find enough pieces to fix, that is

To reiterate: that is the primary, last ditch safety control. If it is tripping, you can try to reset it ONCE and once only. Then turn off the emergency switch and get a technician in there who can find the problem.

Beforfe you blow the place up.

wmgeorge

You guys are amazing!! So much knowledge.

jalagna

Came home from a trip and steam was coming out of the vent through my wood floor…! Was able to remove, can I plug for now? And what can I replace with? 

jalagna

jalagna

I have Hoffman 87 auto vent and a Hoffman 79 auto vent, will either do anything? 

Jamie Hall

If they work... but a better bet on a replacement for that would be a Gorton #2, if it will fit (may have to use a bushing).

Steamhead

jalagna said:

I have Hoffman 87 auto vent and a Hoffman 79 auto vent, will either do anything? 

Jamie Hall said:

If they work... but a better bet on a replacement for that would be a Gorton #2, if it will fit (may have to use a bushing).

They will NOT work for steam. They are for hot-water. Wouldn't be the first time:

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/160298/todays-kodak-moment-uhhhh-beavis-will-these-vents-work