Thermostat location?

gosully

ChrisJ said:

Afraid that LWCO is going to get dangerously hot?

Can you elaborate? I’m not sure what that situation implies-

ChrisJ

gosully said:

ChrisJ said:

Afraid that LWCO is going to get dangerously hot?

Can you elaborate? I’m not sure what that situation implies-

Your spill switch (thermal switch) is laying on top of it.

gosully

ChrisJ said:

ChrisJ said:

Afraid that LWCO is going to get dangerously hot?

Can you elaborate? I’m not sure what that situation implies-

Your spill switch (thermal switch) is laying on top of it.

Thank..I thought it was something to do with pressuretrol that was not hooked up. 

KC_Jones

The pressuretrol is to limit the pressure if it gets to the pressure, the boiler can't "make" pressure. The pressure is dictated by boiler size, relative to system size, and then relating to venting capacity. Too much of one, not enough of the other you get pressure. When everything is right you don't get pressure.

The gauge is pretty much useless at the pressures these systems run at. You could be at 2-3
PSI and not even know. The gauge is sized to double the relief valve capacity, that's the requirement.

The spill switch, for me, is more concerning. That last pic shows it laying on the floor, that just boggles my mind as to whey it was wired, but not installed.

Are you sure those items aren't wired up? They look connected by eye, but I can't see inside anything there.

gosully

KC_Jones said:

The pressuretrol is to limit the pressure if it gets to the pressure, the boiler can't "make" pressure. The pressure is dictated by boiler size, relative to system size, and then relating to venting capacity. Too much of one, not enough of the other you get pressure. When everything is right you don't get pressure. The gauge is pretty much useless at the pressures these systems run at. You could be at 2-3 PSI and not even know. The gauge is sized to double the relief valve capacity, that's the requirement. The spill switch, for me, is more concerning. That last pic shows it laying on the floor, that just boggles my mind as to whey it was wired, but not installed. Are you sure those items aren't wired up? They look connected by eye, but I can't see inside anything there.

Thank you for explaining all of that. 

Re: the spill switch, if looking at the picture indicates to you its wired I would say you’re impression is correct. I may have said something that was misleading, my apologies. I don’t know where that thing laying on the floor is supposed to be attached, when I asked my plumber( who did the install) about it he said you dont need that because you have “blah blah” and pointed to wiring near the emergency switch which seems to be running to the black housing on the flue. If its something an electrician would wire as a normal part of wiring a steam boiler I can say it is absolutely wired properly-I have known him for 35 yrs and he is top notch and definitely knows what he is doing. 

 

ethicalpaul

With all due respect to your guy with 35 years of experience doing something, the wiring was done by the factory. All he had to do was put the switch in the correct location, which is not lying on the floor.

I'm not sure if I'm talking about the electrician or the plumber, but basically the guy who did the install should have put the switch into the draft hood as KC says below. It's indicated in the manual.

You have an automatic flue damper (the black cylinder thing on the flue), maybe that's what your guy was pointing at, but even with that you will need the spill switch ("blocked vent switch") in its correct location, or the inspector won't approve your installation. Your guys did pull a permit and you're getting it inspected, right? (although inspection rules vary by location)

KC_Jones

Just to give you a visual. I attached a screenshot from the manual showing the installation. I think I see the holes for it's mounting on the other side of the draft hood in one of your earlier pictures. The draft hood is the square box on the back that the metal flue pipe is attached to.

gosully

ethicalpaul said:

With all due respect to your guy with 35 years of experience doing something, the wiring was done by the factory. All he had to do was put the switch in the correct location, which is not lying on the floor. I'm not sure if I'm talking about the electrician or the plumber, but basically the guy who did the install should have put the switch into the draft hood as KC says below. It's indicated in the manual. You have an automatic flue damper (the black cylinder thing on the flue), maybe that's what your guy was pointing at, but even with that you will need the spill switch ("blocked vent switch") in its correct location, or the inspector won't approve your installation. Your guys did pull a permit and you're getting it inspected, right? (although inspection rules vary by location)

It would’ve been the plumber that dropped the ball on installing the part into the draft hood I think. 

I will have to take the 5th on answering your other question. 🤭

gosully

KC_Jones said:

Just to give you a visual. I attached a screenshot from the manual showing the installation. I think I see the holes for it's mounting on the other side of the draft hood in one of your earlier pictures. The draft hood is the square box on the back that the metal flue pipe is attached to.

Thank you for the diagram. The visual is helpful.  I will look it up in the manual we have here too.

Well it seems we have a lot to address with this situation. My son is going to arrange for the guy he works with to come over with him and look things over. He is a master plumber..is in the union with my son but also owns his own business. He does things “by the book”and has many years of steam experience. 

I am so discouraged, we were so happy to FINALLY replace that old asbestos cover behemoth. What a nightmare. And based on our first heating bill we used about the same amount of therms for the same time period last year🙄

KC_Jones

If the steam isn't getting where it needs to in an efficient manner, you won't save much fuel. Also, a lot of the old boilers weren't as inefficient as people think.

As far as water usage, keep an eye on it and see how it goes, but as said, anything over a gallon per month and I'd be looking at small things to tighten it up. Valve packing, old/bad vents etc.

You mention the water feeder not hooked up in a previous post, it looks hooked up in those pictures and it has a reading on it so it appears to be hooked up to my eye.

ethicalpaul

Honestly I wouldn't be too discouraged. The installation looks mostly reasonable, just a couple minor things that most of us would have done differently in the piping, and this spill switch issue. I agree with KC about the efficiency...both boilers are burning gas to heat up water, the only difference is a little less heat going up the chimney with the new one.

the heat balancing issue you named in your first post is just a matter of slowing down and/or speeding up some of the vents on the radiators and/or getting your main venting in order. Keep in mind that this boiler will shut down for 60 seconds every 15 minutes to check the water level. Don't mistake that for "short cycling"--it's a desirable safety feature.

Here's some of the worse stuff that could've happened to you that we've all seen in this forum:
- Pull the steam system and install forced air
- convert the steam system to hot water
- totally fouled up near boiler piping (this could have gone 13 different bad ways)
- a new steam boiler that is twice the size it needed to be (actually the jury's out on this one lol)

gosully

KC_Jones said:

If the steam isn't getting where it needs to in an efficient manner, you won't save much fuel. Also, a lot of the old boilers weren't as inefficient as people think. As far as water usage, keep an eye on it and see how it goes, but as said, anything over a gallon per month and I'd be looking at small things to tighten it up. Valve packing, old/bad vents etc. You mention the water feeder not hooked up in a previous post, it looks hooked up in those pictures and it has a reading on it so it appears to be hooked up to my eye.

So the water feed is hooked up but not the auto feed. I add water using a fill switch on the top of that box with the digital reading. He just didnt get to setting it up and said we can do it later. Im glad to have it at least registering how much I have added. 

gosully

ethicalpaul said:

Honestly I wouldn't be too discouraged. The installation looks mostly reasonable, just a couple minor things that most of us would have done differently in the piping, and this spill switch issue. I agree with KC about the efficiency...both boilers are burning gas to heat up water, the only difference is a little less heat going up the chimney with the new one. the heat balancing issue you named in your first post is just a matter of slowing down and/or speeding up some of the vents on the radiators and/or getting your main venting in order. Keep in mind that this boiler will shut down for 60 seconds every 15 minutes to check the water level. Don't mistake that for "short cycling"--it's a desirable safety feature. Here's some of the worse stuff that could've happened to you that we've all seen in this forum: - Pull the steam system and install forced air - convert the steam system to hot water - totally fouled up near boiler piping (this could have gone 13 different bad ways) - a new steam boiler that is twice the size it needed to be (actually the jury's out on this one lol)

Thank you for pointing out the positives👍🏻☺️

And the info in how the boiler cycles to check the water level. 

I would never trade my steam system for any other type!  I love my radiators-even if they are annoying at the moment they are the only heat I would ever want in an antique house. 

The worst thing about this whole situation is the fact that for YEARS every gas company technician that came in to our house would say -get rid of this old clunker you will save a TON of money!
Haha… not so! Second worst…I fought against replacement for so long because we had heat even when we had NO POWER!  Not so with this new boiler😡. So I am still wondering what we gained doing this!

ethicalpaul

You gained not having to disclose a 100 year asbestos-coated boiler on your real estate disclosure form, not a small thing.

Also this is a safer boiler that is easier to maintain IMO.

And you can hook a UPS or any generator to this boiler and run it no problem. Still no fan or blower required.

gosully

ethicalpaul said:

You gained not having to disclose a 100 year asbestos-coated boiler on your real estate disclosure form, not a small thing. Also this is a safer boiler that is easier to maintain IMO. And you can hook a UPS or any generator to this boiler and run it no problem. Still no fan or blower required.

I get your point and not to be contrary…but… I honestly never had any problems with my 100 year old boiler! Never spent any money on repairs! In 35 years it never gave us any trouble until we started losing water!  Yes its true I can connect a ups or generator..which is another expense..they’re not cheap and gas to run it is expensive too! 

I appreciate all of the guidance and expertise everyone here has offered. I am just a bit aggravated. Tomorrow is another day 👍🏻

Steam_Gus

Wow.  Just finished reading this thread.   Kudos to all you experts helping this gentleman out!

I'm a homeowner of a 1926 colonial with steam heat. Purchased the house 25 years ago (Weil-Mclain oil to Utica gas boiler changeover 6 years ago) . So to the homeowner here, I just want to say hang in there and offer this anecdote.   My Original system also used a lot of water until I did a top to bottom vent AND valve refurb on ALL the radiators.  Maid O Mist vents all around following basic vent sizings to start. Slow orifices for near boiler rads and faster orifices for rads progressively further away.  
But most importantly was the valve and connection rework. All your valve stems should get repacked, I was losing live steam on some valves when the vent was closed. Also make sure that steam and or condensate is not leaking out of any union joints that connect the valve to the radiator. You have to check carefully because if it's condensate it can dribble back along the valve/pipe and back down through the floor without puddling. 
Once I did that over the WHOLE  system my water consumption came down to within acceptable levels.  
Recommend you get one of Mr Holohan's books if you haven't already. Wish I had "The lost art of steam heating" when I started my journey. And this forum. 

Good luck.

Bigb

Homeowner here. Great to see this system and all the insights. We had same boiler in Washington DC 1920 brick townhome. It was a good one but the chamber holds more water than older units. Didn’t like that “feature”. Took longer to generate steam. Of all the excellent suggestions, putting quicker vents on further rads to heat faster might help. I forget the brand but there is a rad vent that opens ridiculously wide. We used this upstairs at our place. Moved to the country and new place has baseboard on propane and Burnham Alpine boiler. Had to re-educate on hydronic systems. Nothing beats a good steam system IMO. Best of luck, great post and comments.

Spag74

Set that pressure switch to 1 it’s still to high in pics it’s making boiler work harder and unsafe
Repipe the near boiler piping with two tees feeding the house main maybe even a 3” drop header will help even more. That will help with balancing and drier steam
Good job on insulating all visible pipes and adjustable vents to regulate rads distance from boiler. 

Find that steam leak so not losing water everyday that will save your boiler in long run. 

Lastly move that T-stat to the second floor it’s getting satisfied before steam reaches upstairs that worked for me in solving steam problems 

handms

Each radiator should have a valve at the end. The upper floors should have valves with large openings. The lower floor should have valves with small openings. You can get new valves at home depot. They have valves that are a variable size. The larger opening radiators that will be upstairs should heat long before the lower radiators with the smaller openings start to heat.  The valves cost around$10 each

JUGHNE

"Valves".....do you mean "air vents"??

Jamie Hall

handms said:

Each radiator should have a valve at the end. The upper floors should have valves with large openings. The lower floor should have valves with small openings. You can get new valves at home depot. They have valves that are a variable size. The larger opening radiators that will be upstairs should heat long before the lower radiators with the smaller openings start to heat.  The valves cost around$10 each

You can get vents at Home Depot... quite true. And there are things I do get there. But radiator vents would not be one of them. The quality isn't there. Also the generality about large openings upstairs and small ones downstairs is misleading. Maybe... oftne not.

ChrisJ

Usually I would expect the longer piping to need larger vents but it's a mixture of things. If the piping is really long but the radiator is small you'll get better performance by venting the piping separately.

Upstairs generally needs less heat than down especially if there's an open stairwell and this matters, a lot.

I personally prefer Gorton vents and I'd start with G5's on everything and then go up and down from there depending on what the system and house did.

gosully

JUGHNE said:

"Valves".....do you mean "air vents"??

I want to thank all of you who recently replied!  I’m working on things..especially the venting. 

I have replaced several vents, all with Vent-rite #1. It has helped in some rooms and not so much in others. The one I replaced in our hall was working perfectly but recently seems not to be working as well. I had set it wide open and it was heating up quickly but lately heating up slower and unevenly I have no clue why. I am trying to determine what I should choose for an upstairs bedroom that just isn’t warm at all. When Therm downstairs reads 70 that bedroom is 64/65. I have not replaced that vent, wonder what to get. The same Vet-rite#1 or something faster?  Any recommendations?

I like the suggestion to move the Thermostat. Where it is just isn’t helping..if I take it off the wall and put it on the table below it (about 4 feet off the floor) it drops to 68°.  I also put a digital thermometer in the room and get 68° reading when the thermostat is reading 70/71°.  I’ve blocked the hole where the wiring comes out of the wall and that changed nothing..its the wall that is warm due to the large chimney running along side of it where the boiler flue is vented.  

We are still losing water..thank you to Steam Gus for sharing your approach to this frustrating issue. I will definitely be looking into learning how to repack the valves. 

This is a great forum! So much knowledge. Thank you.