Cross Control connections

Harold

My endless trek.

- One floor
- 3 CM controllers in two closets
- Manifolds operated by devices on each of three controllers
- View of of CM devices (http://www.crossmanifold.com/installation-guide/)

There are 3 Tekmar controllers in the basement on a boiler room wall. These controlled all the the valves in the house and boiler needs. Ignore any valves in the basement.

There is 24 VAC carried in the Tekmar devices. Tekmar 24 VAC must communicate with CrossManifold.

There are multiple colored small gauge wires in each closet. Supplied from the basement Tekmar devices with identical color coding. The Tekmar and wire positions in the Cross control will be matches. Nothing will be changed in the process.

Here is where I get uncomfortable.

If I presume that the 24 VAC plugged into the board device power connection (upper right corner) will deal with all CM needs. That power will be used for the on-board circuitry and the movement of the manifold parts.

Where I get confused.

If there is a 24 vac supply on the top of the board, I do not understand the connections at the bottom. All of the wires connected with the bottom row are pairs one red and one white (C not used).

The White wire can be connected to as many Red wires on the board for connections. Or just used for one connection. The term they use for these connections are referred to as 2 wire thermostats (for obvious reason).

If a powered 2 wire connection is used in one of the positions on the CM board- is the connection on the board terminals 24 VAC from a wire pair from the Tekmar units, or power from the CM board, or none of the above.

I think there may be a problem here.

Jamie Hall

If they are red and white, they are intended to be connected to simple switches. Now it may be -- I'd have to look at the actual circuit diagram -- that the red terminal is also 24 VAC hot, so that if a C wire were also connected you could power a device with it. But that's a different circuit over a different wire.

Zman

In a traditional arrangement, the t-stats would be wired to the "B" terminals and the "D" terminals are just a simple switch that tells the boiler that there is a demand for heat.

I suspect your confusion lies in the Tekmar world. What Tekmar components do you have and what are their functions?

Zman

In rereading your post, you must have a Tekmar zone controller that is attempting to control a Cross zone controller. That would be a problem. The Tekmar is sending power to the Cross to make it open its valves. The Cross does not want power (it already has its own) it wants a switch, like a t-stat or a relay.

I see 3 choices:

1. Lose the Tekmar controller and wire the t-stats directly to the Cross. You may lose some Tekmar functionality depending on your specifics.
   
2. Get rid of the Cross controller and install zone valves. You would no longer be able to watch that thing slide back and forth and wonder where you will get parts when they go out of business and no longer supply parts for a ridiculously complex proprietary trinket.
   
3. Install little relays near the Cross that will convert the power coming from the Tekmar to the switch that the Cross needs. This is probably the best solution, you could mount several of these on a DIN rail and move on. https://www.functionaldevices.com/products/building-automation/details/RIBR24D/
   

Harold

Thanks for your responses.

Just a brief.

I have had no functional communication with network devices for over 3 months. No internet, no device interaction; no phones, nothing. Comcast has been an incredible pain in the butt and anything else that can be thought about their support. They are awful. No one speaks English. Very few understand whatever has to be done to fix things. According to the power company, a squirrel broke the pole cable. No one else had the problem. Zero compensation. Once a week they assure me that things will be fixed for the next day. BS - BS. It is still not a clean interface.

I had to buy a new router, an internet modem, and change carriers. At higher pricing.

Back to the problem at hand.

The "little" relays may be the solution.

I have a bag of these. SPDT. 24 VAC. Black COM, Brown NO, Blue NC. If I make up a small rack of these it may be the solution. I need to clearly understand the devices. I will be looking for useful racking of the little relays. It appears to need a 120 A VAC. There are two power wires. Black - COM, Brown - NO, Blue - NC. Yellow - 12A @ 120 VAC.

I am going to look at that.

Thanks

Jamie Hall

Harold said:

Thanks for your responses.



I have a bag of these. SPDT. 24 VAC. Black COM, Brown NO, Blue NC. If I make up a small rack of these it may be the solution. I need to clearly understand the devices. I will be looking for useful racking of the little relays. It appears to need a 120 A VAC. There are two power wires. Black - COM, Brown - NO, Blue - NC. Yellow - 12A @ 120 VAC.

I am going to look at that.

Thanks

Unless I'm reading what you wrote incorrectly, the coils take 24 VAC to operate. No mention of amp. draw. The contacts are rated for 120 Volts AC and to carry 12 amperes (those two ratings are separate -- they will make or break without excessive arcing on no more than 120 volts. They will carry -- at any voltage -- no more than 10 amps).

Zman

If the relays have 24VAC coils, just wire the power wires to the Tekmar zone valve outputs and the Com and NO to the Cross controller. They make junction boxes with little DIN rails installed or you can make one yourself.
Achieving peace in the Middle East would be easier than getting Comcast to give you the service you have paid for.

Harold

I have been hunting the relays. Still looking. I would blame the dog; but I don't have a dog. But I did look a bit more on the relay. Found one.

Further information on the relays. The relay is nearly a cube. It has a threaded mounting on one side. It goes through an external hole in something. Screw on threaded connection.

On the side they show 12A @ 120 VAC, 10A @250 VAC, Cr24V. Relay CSA. LR48471. Other side the same.

Then there are two yellow wires poking out from the block. One is marked with a simple white piece of tape, and one black. The outside (through a small hole) also has printing. 24 VAC Activated Relay - (SPDT).

Three wires come out the end of the cube. Just like putting something through a mounting in a wire box with junctions. Black, Brown, and Blue. They match the wiring on the side of the cube.

That is all I know about the relay. I might be able to deal with multiple connections; but I don't really know. I have never found a broader description of what they are doing.

Getting actual documentation is essentially zero. They have removed EVERY instance that could be of use.

I seriously need heat in the house. I have been using a couple of electric heaters.

I am going to feed.

Please keep ideas flowing.

Zman

That relay sounds like it will work, you will need one for each zone.
You never said you were without heat and cold. If you put a jumper wire between R and W on the Cross the little motor will slide across and turn the valve so you can get the heat going.

Harold

Thanks Zman.

I have been trying to get hold of the contractor who did all of this from ground up. But for more than a month I have been unable to reach him. He also has additional parts needed for the boiler and materials to flush the system. I do not know what is happening. I really hope he is not sick or worse. Maybe working out of the area (he does islands and remote places).

Harold

I have gone through the pieces of the system. I am trying to document what there is. Not much.

If you guys can review what there is I would appreciate it.
############

Initial configuration at the boiler room uses 3 Tekmar controllers involved with the upstairs wiring.

There are more wires for the basement (whole basement). They are not used at this time. They are still the original individual valves and Tekmar controlling. Ignore this.

I have verified the wiring between the Tekmar units in the boiler room and the two locations upstairs in the closets with the CM.

These connections are to be used for the CM devices. There is a set of wires for each CM. Not all connection points are directly used. Jumpers from another input wire point are used. Individual wires are OK to just use as they are. The 7 wires are used to direct connections. I believe I understand this.

This is where I get confused. Seven wires are provided via the wires to the CM devices.

An additional 8th wire is also in the cable that includes a white wire. This is to be used to provide power to the CM units.

I believe it is intended to be connected to the power input connection at the two CM devices. This implies power being supplied to two individual external connections. Presumably there will be a jumper covering each.

Each of the items on the CM units also seem to be providing power to the input points. Knowing would be helpful.

Wire 8 is provided from the single wire in the Tekmar. Presumably this does something but I am not clear what is happening. I think it is a control for using the Tekmar on the external point(s).

And then there is power via the external wire to the whole thing. The normal power supply is from a signal external heavy wart.

There seems to have too many power connections. And I need to follow the white wire if I can figure out what it is doing; and to what.

The temperature remains cold.

Thanks to you all.

mattmia2

A few pictures of this relay would help. Googling that part number shows it is just a small pcb mount relay so it sounds like yours is mounted to some sort of socket or breakout board or possibly in an enclosure with flying leads.

Pictures of all of these manifolds and wiring might help us. drawing a schematic would help a lot more

Harold

http://www.crossmanifold.com/installation-guide/

Not really much.

Harold

Still working on it. Still not getting where I need to be.

Stupid pet tricks; I can not get an insert to hold for mounting of one control box. Something blocking. It is a complicated wall. Multi layers for sound suppression. Not getting through. There should not be a blockage - but.

The fun just never ends. Then I can go back to wiring stuff.

Zman

Tekmar makes dozens of controllers. What model(s) do you have? Can you sketch out a diagram showing what wires go where? Maybe a picture of the devices showing the color and location of the wires. We are guessing at this point.

Harold

The Tekmar equipment is OK.

The Tekmar wiring was (I believe) redirected a bit in the boiler room to accommodate the CM interface. They are all there to match using the CM input. There is (I believe) a power wire from the 24 VAC in the Tekmar. It gets a bit complicated.

The base Tekmar wires are placed in the remote closet and align with the Tekmar input to the CM. There are matching connection points on the CM connections. That should work with the Tekmar wires. After labeling al the wires in the closet, they are not sticking on the wires. Take one step back. Today.

Power connections are where I get a headache.

The (normal) system input for the CM power is from a wall wart for the CM controller at the top of the control.

There is a multi-wire cable that sends control information and power to the devices that actually work the valves.

I am installing all the wires. I am not sure what is going to happen. That has been my fear.

Zman

The relay info I provided above is most likely the correct solution.
If you would post the model number of the Tekmar components rather than saying they are "OK", Your chances of turning your electronics into bricks would be greatly reduced. If you put power to a terminal that is looking for a switch, the smoke may just come out.

Harold

Sorry, I thought a diagram was asked for. The screen I provided was for a picture of the CM controller.
I will send that Tekmar information tomorrow.

Thanks.

I don't think this comment made it into the thread.

However, I am not being very well. Don't know what it is, but is making me miserable.

A wonderful addition to the heat-less problem.

Harold

Still not feeling well. Going to get much lower temperatures, high winds, and intense rain. Not sure yet where this is going to happen. We are at the upper part.

Microsoft is pretty much a mess. Everything is now MS and I can not find things. I tried to find a way to draw a picture/schematic. No go. My wife found a camera. Charging now. May be useful for you.

What I think is needed.

I spent today and yesterday trying to get photos (found the camera) and drawings. New enhanced MS has set it up so I can't get anything from the camera into the computer. They have actually replaced the software in the camera. Nothing will talk to each other.

- There are 17 slots in the two controller blocks in the East closet (the thing you see in the picture I sent you). The picture shows as much as they have ever given me.

The Tekmar wires from the boiler room are split. There are 3 Zone Control 369's. Two allocated to East closet. A third is awaiting in the West. There is one 262 doing the 2 stage boiler.

Wires are all color coded and match basement and closet.

I recently began to understand all of the functions (I think). I got confused with number of wires, multiple, applications, etc.

There is a row of 4 valves. Six for the lower valves. Two control bricks you have seen in the pictures I have.

Where I got lost as the use of the wires in the closet. My head kept saying that the wires I had in my hand would not make it work. The numbers in the valves are backwards of expected. 10 is left, 1 is right.

In these ten, some require a wire from the Tekmar and some only derive power from combinations of wires from the connections in the existing connection points.

What I believe is required is to place various locations in the set. Basically one type for items that need an active thermostat input in the units. And other connections derived from the other things. Since I can not map things, I will try to make sense.

T's are active thermostats on the east side of the house.
T's can cluster and share.
T's need power.
Valves may operate without external power.

10 & 1 Craft East and West - one T

2 & 3 Theater S and Theater N - one T

5 His Bath - one T

9 His Bed - one T

8, 7, 6, & 4 These are connected to locations not controlled by the individual connections. They will respond to control for the wires passively after setting the connections in positions. They will not attach to a T.

The M units will tie into unused connections. Adjustment of the remaining items (M) will be done manually to level the temperatures to non T work. They are not active. Some wires may become small clusters.

Another set of things will also be configured for the West side of the house.

I believe this is what should happen.


I still have to work out how wires are done. This is the scary part.

1 - I am fairly certain the white wire from the Tekmar is 24 VAC. Maybe a second wire to make a pair. I am not sure just where power will show up. I think the TM power will be used for the various connections put in the connections at the control units. I am not certain what will happen to two power supplies. Is the power isolated from each other. Is internal isolation provided to the pairs of controls.

2 - Wires from the TM will control the heating system in the closet.

3 - If 24 VAC TM is used where does it attach on the two control panels.

4 - If 24 VAC drives the CM controls, how is power being controlled.
The power connection for the panels taken for a wall wart of 24 VAC; or something else.

I tried to find a clear answer.

Bed time for me.

Rather bad storms are fluttering about the west coast. Local weather believes most everything will miss us. National was showing evil activity over the lower coast.

Harold

Any thoughts about the above - and how to finish the system.

Zman

Those are older model Tekmar 369 controllers that are just an unpowered switch on the zone valve side. You should be able to integrate them with the CM with no relays. Don't get worked up about the 24 volt power, this is probably easier than you think.
Are all the zone valves CM's or do you have some other valves in the mix?
Pictures would really help...

Harold

Zman

I tried to get photos. Found the camera, but when I connected to the PC to download the photos, Microsoft appears to have replaced the existing camera internal software. Can't get them to talk.

All the Tekmar controls are in the boiler room/panel and send the wires to the upstairs valve (CM) controllers. CM wires are distributed. CM does everything after the Tekmar wires. The Tekmar wires are installed in the CM controllers.

What I understand:
- Wires from TM to CM are simple.
- TM wires attach to the input ports of the CM controllers.
- The TM wires are directly connected to the CM individual input connections; as needed. Some single TM connections at the CM are linked to two or more parallel inputs at the CM. These would be two types of connections strictly for items that provide connections from wires without additional external power.

- The direct TM connect and the associated multiple wires for operating points. These inclusion in a single wire and jumpers for adjacent functions of are to allow CM connections to control actions not used directly by the TM inputs. These items are for devices that will be adjusted manually. These connections will be used to balance all the non-directly devices. Adjustments on individual devices are clustered and deal with the rest of the connections.

I still need to know:

- Should I provide external power to the CM controller (the wire pair in the upper right corner of the controller) from a 24 VAC wall wart?
- Will using additional external power from the individual TM sources in the boiler room damage anything?

- Is there Isolation between these two power sources.

We have not had heat for several weeks. I would really really like to finish this. Still not able to find the contractor.

Zman

Plug the CM into the wall per the instructions. The only issue you may have is if you have more than one CM tied to a single TM. If that is the case, you will need to pay a little closer attention.
The TM will need a wire from any "R" terminals on the CM to terminals 7,10, and 13 on the TM.
You then need a wire from the "W" terminals on the CM to the corresponding terminals on the TM (6,8,9,11,12,15).
Assuming that the TMs were originally wired to line voltage and to each other and the boiler and the t-stats have not changed, you should be good to go.

Zman

If you have multiple zone valves on one t-stat, just daisy chain them as they show in the CM manual.

Harold

I tried again to understand the problem. No luck. I am still unable to understand what the Cross Control system does. I tried. Still no possibility of an actual meaningful detailed manual. Why in the hell can they not provide useful documentation.

What I may have understood in some way just does not fit with my head thinks I should do.

Current view of stuff I have found.

The control unit (CM) gets power only for the green connection in the top right corner. This connection is provided by a large 24 VAC 30 W power supply. It appears that there must be an additional wall wart for the larger of the two control units. That messes up the space for the wall warts. Each one weighs a bit over 1 lb. And big.

There is no other source of power I can understand.

A multi-wire cable runs from the large device making the interesting parts moving back and forth from the CM. The cable is attached to a connector in the upper left on the CM. There is no other power or information supplied.

Then we have the interesting stuff.

There would appear to be only one type of active external (input/other) connection. That is all the little sets of Red, White, and Common in sets depending on the size of the controller.

I have not figured out just what things do. I did not understand.

I have been told that these sets are not powered in any way. They must be driven from an external source ?. Or some magic. I do not understand how this works. From where is not resolved.

One solution says that no power will ever go into the connections at the bottom of the controller.
A second view is that they do something to control the Tekmar controller outputs - or not.

Other pictures of people using the CM devices showed including wires between connections of more than one CM. This is not anything I have been able to find in a good picture. But what I have seen in little pieces seems to have more stuff going on.

Things with Tekmar et al. This is an old installation. The original configuration TM directly activated power in individual heating solenoids. Demand was created by a room thermostat calling for heat from a Tekmar location to open a valve. In this configuration, power is emitted by Tekmar for items that need heat.

Individual thermostats drove individual requests for specific heating valves via the Tekmar equipment. This system is not used any longer. Piping and components are all replaced except for Tekmar equipment. Everything changed to use Cross Manifold equipment and run from the Tekmar equipment.

The anticipated results.

1 - Tekmar systems would remain intact up until connections are to be made to the Cross system.
2 - Tekmar will continue reacting to all of the thermostats.
3 - Tekmar outputs for external devices.

Resulting connections from Tekmar to CM or vice-versa must use a coherent connection protocol. System Voltages must be compatible.

Currently, my Tekmar outputs to CM are zero power. I do not know what the secret connections do from the CM.

I expected the CM connection points to interface with the Tekmar zero power interface. Not the way it works. Information I found completely confuses me about who is doing whatever is supposed to connect the system. I am told no power comes out of the CM; nor is there current from the Tekmar.

Something is doing something; but damn if I know what. It appears phlogisten is required.

I just do not understand. But I do understand that we still do not have heat.


The following submission from Zman is good. I moved a copy down below so you can see the best input I have received. But I am still not sure what I should be doing to the wired and other mystery parts.

What Zman provided sure looks proper. But I have been seriously beaten today.

Plug the CM into the wall per the instructions. The only issue you may have is if you have more than one CM tied to a single TM. If that is the case, you will need to pay a little closer attention.
The TM will need a wire from any "R" terminals on the CM to terminals 7,10, and 13 on the TM.
You then need a wire from the "W" terminals on the CM to the corresponding terminals on the TM (6,8,9,11,12,15).

Assuming that the TMs were originally wired to line voltage and to each other and the boiler and the t-stats have not changed, you should be good to go.

Zman

Have you tried wiring this way?
There is no rule that says every terminal needs a wire. Some will not be used.
If you are worried that it is not wired correctly, sketch out how you are attempting to wire it and we can comment.
The issue is not that CM or TM are not providing proper instructions, no offense, but the issue is that you don't understand control wiring.

Harold

I have spent most of the day trying to figure out how to get pictures. My camera just will not work for me. Too long since I used the camera. Or it is broken.

This is what the Cross device looks like: http://www.crossmanifold.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Cross-Installation-Guide11415.pdf

A gentleman sent me a picture of the Cross doing things.
http://www.crossmanifold.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Cross-Installation-Guide11415.pdf

The picture shows the connections for 4 of the CM wires to (I believe) a set of four thermostats.

I can not really see the small details. But there is a Tekmar/CM interface.

I do not understand well. The paragraph at the bottom of the Tekmar 402/Cross document has some interesting information.

Dry connection for thermostats? Presumably the Tekmar. Thermostats around the house run/demand these thermostats.

I also found out that a single wall wart is not enough for the two Cross device. Seems a bit wrong; whatever. And that the wires must be exactly the same electrical links for an 120 VAC connection. An interesting requirement for normal AC power connections. And it requires an additional very large power outlet.

Overall, the information is a bit strange. The manufacturers information confuses me. Deeply.


I hope this will help.

House is quite unbearable. And MS changes to make things work is just really really destructive to the human brain.

Larry Weingarten

Hi @Harold , Do you or anyone you know have a smart phone? Using that, take pictures and email them to yourself. Then you can save them and post them here. Our ability to help you is very limited without photos.

Yours, Larry

Zman

Can you add a power strip so that you can plug all of the power supplies in?
Is there something confusing about my earlier instructions?
Connecting a CM to an older TM zone controller is not done frequently. There is no manual.
I can tell you that if you plug in the CM and connect the R to the W it will open the valve. It is simply looking for a switch. The TM terminals are that switch. Try it, you'll like it!

Harold

Zman - not ignoring what you have provided.

Odd information/instructions from the CM page I have sent in the previous entry above. Particularly strange on power "sharing" with a wall outlet. From the text, I suspect it is from the manufacturer. It has that feel. But I am doing what they say they need. I know - strangeness runs amuck.

I only have space for a single wall wart, in the room outside the closet. I have found a power box and ran the wire under the closet door to the only wall in the area .

I am making wires for the closet.

The scary part is not hurting something.

Zman

The power supply is just a transformer. You put 120 volts in one side and it spits 24 volts out the other side.
The 24 volts is not very dangerous. As long as you don't short from R to C, you shouldn't be able to damage anything.

Harold

Hi Zman.

It is not the 120 I care about. Except that I do not have two wall warts. I have a multi-connection unit run into the closet. It runs under the closet door. The CM guy specifically wants two independent wall warts.

I am hoping to get heat today. It is cold pacific wind current, 50 - 60 mph, rains like crazy. Major flooding. Power just dropped for a short time. Things down from the wind. Why I have a short term backup power box.

We are much higher enough to stay out of that flooding mess, but slides can occur. My new driveway about 3 weeks ago, has created a new and exciting little creek down the stone driveway. I said it will not work that way. Oddly; I was right. Not as much as computer stuff.

I am double checking all the intended wire connections. There are a fairly large bunch of wires that need to be distributed along the controlled valves. A mix of active valves. Some are driven by a single thermostat and some have several thermostats associated together.

I am going to make sure I have things correct and properly shared.

I sure would like getting heat.

Zman

Plugging more than one into a receptacle may be challenging physically, a power strip designed for transformers would take care of that. A typical little transformer like that is probably rated 40va. On the 120 volts side, that would draw 0.3 amps. There is no reason not to plug them all into the same circuit.

Zman

It looks like you double-posted. Who is the "CM Guy"?

Erin Holohan Haskell

Zman said:

It looks like you double-posted. Who is the "CM Guy"?

Deleted the double post. Thanks!

Harold

Please discard the CM guy comment. Should not have been published. Different issue. My apology.

Harold

Zman - Very good information.

What I understand.

The wiring needs to be in parallel to insure it will need a wire from any "R" terminals on the CM ( to terminals 7,10, and 13 on the TM.

You then need a wire from the "W" terminals on the CM to the corresponding terminals on the TM (6,8,9,11,12,15).

Assuming that the TMs were originally wired to line voltage (they are) and to each other and the boiler and the t-stats have not changed, you should be good to go.

Bad few days. And fortunately, I have managed to get only immediate rain effects (50 - 60 mph). Massive flooding in the state, downed trees and power lines. Very massive flooding (including a photo you might find interesting) showing a tractor trailer rolled over on it's side on a 2 lane bridge (about 250 ft up) and held up by the low fence on the pedestrian walking path. And there is likely a driver needing a change of pants.

Any way, I am working my way through the workings of the system. Looking at each sets of wandering wires between the two controllers should clear it up. I was having a little less understanding than I hoped. Once the wires are completely identified; it should work.

Harold

Still at it.

I think I might have it.

Some wires were not identified correctly. That took a bit of time. Drilling holes, wiring, routing wires, construction wires to the CC controller.

I have 8 inputs (7 used) available in the Western closet controller. One white wire from cable is to connect with the Tekmar controller. The white wire connects directly to the Tekmar in the basement from a single white wire which is linked to one of three specific sets of the white wires in the Tekmar. The white wires each carry a single wire connection to be used (I believe) where the RED connections are in the controller positions. The East and West each have a white wire.

I believe the single White wire should be split and applied to all of the positions of the RED connection points. Then I have all the colored wires going to the individual connections aside of the specific white positions.

The first two positions of each set are used and the third is not. First is a wire (red for me) and next a wire into the individual connection points.

Please contact me and let me know if I am making sense of this. Especially given how many dead ends I have created. I have been opening the freezer to make the house warmer.

Harold

Zman

You need to figure out a way to share a sketch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQGgaI-BcI4

Harold

I am grateful for your persistence, but there is really nothing to see.

I provided a picture further up this thread. That is all there is.

The power supplies are not an issue. Never were, just needed to connect them after making holes.

This is all there is for documentation.
http://www.crossmanifold.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Cross-Installation-Guide11415.pdf

A cable to the Tekmar's comes out of the upstairs wall in a closet. All wires come from this cable. One white wire and 8 colored wires to the controller. There is nothing else. The manufacturer absolutely refuses to provide any coherent documentation. I have tried. You have a picture of the single information above here.

I have concluded to wire as I describe in my last post above. I am going to have to power things that I am simply scared to do.

I must get heat. I do not want to destroy things.
I do not know where else to go.

Harold

I did like the cows.