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Flame retention head conversion of Wayne E series burner
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Wow, I didn't mean to leave you guys hanging. Sorry about that.
I thought I posted that I had another project come up that demanded my attention. What I had hoped would take a week actually took a month - and I'm still not done yet - erosion problem.
Anyways, I will be calling someone this week to set up an appointment to do a combustion analysis.
And I will definitely post the results.0 -
I called someone yesterday to do the analysis. They are busy, so I don't know if they can fit me in.
However I just learned that where I work has the combustion testing equipment. It's an Eagle 2X kit.
I plan to take it home for the weekend and do some testing.
Question: doesn't the sensor go bad after about 1 year, and since a new sensor basically costs almost as much as the entire unit, this might be a waste of time? Still, I can test the draft to see if I am in the ballpark.
Where I work uses gas, not oil, so no smoke tester to test with.0 -
@MikeAmann
try it what do you have to lose? You are supposed to have them recalibrated and the sensors changed every so often. If it doesn't work it will (or should) give you an error code.0 -
Exactly, what do I have to lose?0
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I know you guys said draft first, but I had to do an analysis first to see if the test equipment even worked. It does. The burner settings were left as they were the last time I fired the burner after adding the oil delay valve. Here is what I got:
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My "D" shaped holes are slightly smaller than the original.
My tongues angle downward about 15 degrees to aid the air flow through the "D" - the originals stick out at 90 degrees.
I have to figure out how much to remove from my tongues to increase the draft in the flue.
I welded on "smiley face" pieces to the smaller tongues that I had before because I thought too much heat was going up the chimney and not putting enough heat into the water jacket. I think I went too far.
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217° net stack temperature?0
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217° - Good question. Does this meter take the ambient temperature into account? Because it does display an efficiency number. One probe in the pipe at the breach and you get all the numbers posted above. Nothing to calculate. I have the CD to the unit, and will be looking at it momentarily.0
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The red line is what I propose to remove from the tongues on my SS baffles.
Anyone wish to take a somewhat educated guess as to how much to remove?
This is going to be a one-shot deal tonight because I can't keep the testing equipment forever.
I promised to bring it back tomorrow night, and I don't want to screw myself from borrowing it again.
So I need to get the modification done, back together, and get proper draft numbers tonight.
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Question: I do have a Field barometric draft regulator installed in the flue pipe. In order for that to be able to do it's job, wouldn't I need MORE DRAFT than necessary (say -.06) so that the damper can slow the flue gas down to the desired -.03 to -.04?0
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@MikeAmann
The only draft you need to worry about is the draft over the fire. The over fire draft is going to be your lowest - #. At the boiler outlet you will get a higher - # due to the restriction of the boiler flue passages and baffles.
Yes , you should set the draft first but everything else affects the draft so typically you do the complete set up 2-3 time before getting stuff 0 in.
If your making 13.7Co2 your likely to be smoking or at the least on the edge of smoke. You should adjust the burner for a trace of smoke (you have to to know where your at) then open the air to drop the Co2 1%.
If you stack temp is that low you may need to boost the pump pressure or a larger nozzle. Minimum stack temp with the boiler up to temp should be 300 absolute minimum0 -
It appears that this meter does take into account the ambient temperature, so no calculations, and what it displays is the final number.
SuperTech said, If you can get that burner dialed in to a true zero smoke, 11-12% CO2, 4.5-5.5% O2 and zero PPM CO during steady state combustion you will be in good shape. Make sure to dial in the draft first. -.01-.03" over fire, .03-.04" in the breach. I would also recommend going higher than 100 PSI on the oil pump and using the smaller nozzle.
I know the draft is a negative number. There should be a higher (-) number at the breach than over the fire. I am getting a lower number, meaning my baffles have are too restrictive and killed the draft.
You said it yourself, at the boiler outlet you will get a higher - # due to the restriction of the boiler flue passages and baffles.
I am not getting that. Just using numbers - I'm getting 2 to 3 over the fire, but only 1 at the breach.
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I think you might just need to let it run a while. Allowing the chimney to warm up is part of the process when looking for steady state combustion. Once the chimney is warm and normal draft is established then you can set the barometric damper to establish the over fire draft. Usually when starting up a burner for the first time you have to start with the smoke pump, by the time I'm done with that the boiler and chimney are warm enough to establish draft. Perhaps your baffles are a little restrictive, or the boiler under fired. How long was the burner operating during this test? Were you starting with a cold boiler?
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Started full cold (67), let it run for 10 minutes before testing. It only takes about 20 minutes to heat the water to the HI limit (180). And I ran it with a CFH so the circulator was running. Adjusting the air band from nearly MIN to MAX open has little visual effect on the flame AND the numbers don't change much either.
I just did some calculating of area numbers for the baffles. I will spare us all the numbers. By making my tongues go out to nearly touching the ID of the tube resulted in the only area left open for flue gas to pass through being the "D" opening. The full area of the tube (2.75") gets reduced by the original baffle to 67%. But my baffles reduced that area all the way down to 21%.
Before I do any grinding, I can prove the theory by running the burner again without one, then two baffles.
If the draft at breach (number) increases, then I have a lot of grinding to do tonight.0 -
@MikeAmann
I think your a little underfired. I still don't see how it is possible to get a lower draft reading at the breeching than over the fire... not with a negative draft appliance. If it was a positive draft appliance that could be true.
Where are you putting the test probe in the breeching? You need to be between the boiler and the barometric and not to near the barometric that could skew your #s, as soon as it exits the boiler is best
Also if your readings are not changing when you adjust the air band recheck that you have the right air handling parts and end cone for your firing rate0 -
I need to buy a smoke tester. Recommendations please.
I see a Testo, a Bacharach, and a UEi available.0 -
Thanks. I have results from last night. However, I might have selected the wrong fuel type, so the numbers might be off. The analyzer has selections for H Oil and L Oil. I selected H Oil because I interpreted that to be HEATING Oil, but it's probably heavy oil. I should have selected L Oil for LIGHT Oil.
The analyzer is a UEi Eagle X C155. This unit does not use an oxygen sensor and all parameters displayed ARE the actual numbers - NO CALCULATIONS to make. It's an amazing unit.
I removed one baffle (front LH corner) and checked the breach draft again. And that is right at the output flange of the boiler and at least 24" from the barometric damper. The air band adjustment was right in the middle for this test. I let the boiler run for 11 minutes until the number stabilized. Water temp started at 67 and 123 when stopped. The draft at the breach was now -.03 with an occasional -.04 and -.02. Removing the baffle worked and proves that I went too far and made them too restrictive. I restarted the boiler for the combustion analysis test. Ran for another 6 minutes until all the numbers stabilized. Water temp now 144. Here is the results: (remember H Oil selected)
I will redo the test tonight with the unit set on L Oil.
Is it OK to run the boiler with one baffle removed?
Given the choice, which would you leave out?
I can grind all the tongues on my baffles to try to achieve the same as removing the one baffle. But that would be tedious.
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@MikeAmann
Any smoke tester will do and yes it should be set to light oil. Heavy oil has a higher max Co2 so that may skew your readings a little.
Is you barometric damper more open or more closed when firing. If it's more open it will reduce your draft.
You still need -.02 over the fire
To get more draft over the fir you have 3 choices (assuming the chimney is doing it's job)
Remove baffles
close the barometric somewhat
reduce the firing rate (but stack temp must be over 300)
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The barometric damper is closed, just on the verge of opening. It's set at minimum.
I even tried to block it off completely with a plastic bag to see if the draft at breach would increase. It didn't.
I have -.02 over the fire, and I now have -.03 to -.04 at the breach with one baffle removed.
All the numbers are falling in line. I just have to get a smoke tester to properly set the air band.
I can't actually see my flame, but what I do see is a bright orange glow that completely fills the "bucket" of the combustion chamber and that the flame is rock solid, meaning that it doesn't flit and flicker all around.0 -
The lower purple hole is where I am inserting the probe.
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It's a good thing that I have this analyzer available to use, because the heating company that I called to have someone come out and set this up got back to me today and the tech said that his analyzer is broken and he can't get another due to the shortages created by COVID. They are so jammed up that they will not do any cleanings until February.
I swapped to having the baffle removed on the right side. And I set the analyzer to LIGHT OIL. There wasn't much difference in the numbers from the oil type change. However there was a big change to the temperature measured at the breach - with a hot boiler I was now getting as much as 475 degrees F .... 80 degrees hotter than having the left side tube open. I was hoping to run it like this through the winter, I even put all the covers back on, but the open tube is creating a hot spot at the top and almost cooking the paint.
So I am not going to run it this way and started sanding the tongues on the baffles down. I am taking a somewhat educated guess as to how much material to remove so that I can maintain the proper draft numbers without letting too much of the heat just go up and out of the chimney. It will be a few days before I will be able to test it again. Meanwhile I will order the smoke tester.
Here is the results of the last test: (light oil) (air band open 1.100")
O2% 4.7
CO2 % 12.0
CO ppm 44
Flue 464.1 F
Inlet 74.3 F
Net T 389.8 F
Eff 84.0
Losses 16.0
Xair% 29.0
CO/CO2 0.0003
CO air free 56
Steamhead posted this back in Nov 2013:
.... Beckett AF burners. When well sealed and properly tuned, these units put up some pretty good combustion test results and don't get sooted up over the course of a heating season.
The flue passages are rather large compared to a modern boiler, but can be baffled to make the hot flue gases wipe the cast-iron better. However, the person installing the baffles MUST make sure they do not kill the draft over the fire, or reduce the stack temperature enough to cause the flue gases to condense.0 -
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Instead of grinding the 'tongues' down, why not just bend them in a little? That should be a lot more reversible in case you go to far.
It's my understanding that the C155 measures CO₂ directly & calculates O₂, opposite of a regular combustion analyzer, so the O₂ reading will be off if you have the wrong fuel selected. If you stick with CO₂ as your variable, it shouldn't matter what fuel it's set to.
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Ed, with an open tube with no baffle, a large portion of the hot flue gas is coming out of that one tube while the other seven are still restricted. Hence the "hot spot", or should I say, hot area. I need to make all 8 baffles smaller so each tube has a more equal flow and no hot areas.
ratio, my baffles are made from .062" stainless steel and I can't easily bend the tongues now after welding on the extra material. I don't mind the sanding - it's just going to take some time. Two are already done, 6 more to go tonight.
You are 100% correct about the C155 analyzer.
What temperature should I be looking for at the breach ACTUAL, not NET? 300 degrees minimum was previously mentioned.0 -
Hey Ed-
This is what I call a hot spot.
This is what happens when you leave a baffle out.
Ok, so about the baffles. I finished sanding all 40 tongues last night.
Pic below: my original baffle on left - too restrictive baffle on right. And the difference between the two.
Below: the 2.75" ID tubes
The amount of material that I removed from each tongue
And the finished product
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I installed all the baffles, put the breach cover back on and put everything back together. And fired the boiler. No more hot spot - just relatively even heat on the top cover. A smoke tester is ordered and on its way. I will borrow the combustion tester again once I dial in the smoke. And I am pretty sure I will be able to actually do that now because for the first time I actually saw a difference in observing the flame when I adjusted the air band. I can make the flame go from a duller orange to a brighter orange. Can I add so much air as to make the flame bright yellow? No, definitely not. But I believe that I am within adjustment range now.0
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Sounds good. When you get the smoke tester, the proper procedure is to pull ten strokes on each test. Close the air band a little at a time until you get a bit of smoke on the test paper. Then open it just enough to get a completely clean test. You now have zero smoke, and this is your starting point.
Now use the analyzer. Take a measurement, then open the air enough to drop the CO2 by half a percent. Let's say you get 12.5% CO2 at the start. Open the air enough to lower the CO2 to 12%. Re-check your smoke, it should still be zero. Tighten the air adjustment set screws. Your burner is now tuned so it should maintain zero smoke over the course of a full heating season. This goes a long way toward keeping the inside of the boiler clean, which means it will maintain its efficiency.
You never want to leave the burner right on the edge of zero smoke. Changes in the air or oil supply can affect the fuel-air mix, so that half a percent should give you enough headroom to avoid making smoke if this happens.All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting
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Thank you. The smoke tester came in today and I will use it tomorrow night. Once I am satisfied, then I will borrow the analyzer again, hopefully this weekend. If I can get this old boiler to operate without sooting up and get 85% efficiency, then I will call that a BIG WIN.0
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Wait till you have the analyzer before running your smoke test. It's best to do the analyzer right after the smoke test.All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
I think my baffles might still be too restrictive. Here's why:
I had to do the smoke test to see if I was even in the ball park. I thought the air bands were fully open - they were not. I thought I would get zero smoke and have to be closing the air bands to get to a trace. That didn't happen. Where they were set I got a 3 or 4. I removed the air bands completely and got a 1-1/2. And I noticed a slight bit of cool air blowing OUT from the air band area. So slight that you have to put your face up close and stick your tongue out to feel it. There was also a very slight bit of cool air coming from the small holes in the 4x4 electrical box mounted to the blower housing. Beckett F0 head with 2-3/4" plate - same as SR setup - 1725 rpm.
So I can't add any more air. If I am reading these results correctly, then in order to get more air flowing through the combustion chamber, then I have to make the baffles a little smaller yet. Or, cut back on the nozzle size (I bought a .50 GPH this afternoon to test the theory) to lean the mixture. At 120 psi, that should give me nearly .55 GPH. It's quick and easy to try the smaller nozzle.
It's no wonder that this burner would soot up with the previous conventional head setup. That used a .85 GPH nozzle and the air bands were nowhere near fully open. But this was also before I added material to the baffles.0 -
It's all about static pressure and the pressure drop through the boiler.
If it was me I would pull all the baffles out then adjust the burner and see where your at.0 -
Noted Ed.
I really wish I could use helical (or spiral) baffles, but nobody has measurements and doing that would be another experiment in itself. A manufacturer in Italy will make them to your specs and out of stainless: https://www.eurospiral.com/helical-turbulators-boilers-heat-exchangers/
The only restriction is the pitch of the spiral.
Here is a simple youtube video on the topic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40E62JIi2Ss 0 -
But that doesn't mean you stack temp will go up that much your at a pretty low firing rate0
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That reminds me of a job I did years ago, adding baffles to an old snowman boiler to reduce the stack temperature. The lady couldn't afford a new boiler, especially with the asbestos abatement. We dropped the stack temp from 800 to 600 degrees- still way higher than I like, but better than it was. And I still had plenty of draft.All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
Yup, it seems that is the balancing act I am faced with right now. When I removed the one baffle, the measured stack temp went from 380 to 480. But I also got the hot spot.
I am going to bring the analyzer home tonight to get a little more data for hopefully a better picture of what is actually going on. I can still try the smaller .50 GPH nozzle. Since I can't add more air, then I can reduce fuel to try to get closer to zero smoke.0 -
More data:
This is with the sanded baffle tongues and the air bands full open. Still at .66 GPH firing rate.
I measured the draft over fire first. It was all over the place from zero to -0.06 with -.03 being in the middle. Draft at breach was -.03 with some 2s and 4s. So sanding the tongues removed the restriction I had (could only get -.01 prior) and I am satisfied with that. But what is going on with the draft over fire??? Is the air bands being wide open disrupting the flame?
About 5 minutes later after measuring the draft. Boiler was cold to begin with - warm now. Air band full open.
CO2% ..... 11.0
Efc ......... 85.3
Xair ....... 41.2
Another 5 minutes later. Air bands now at 50%.
CO2% ..... 11.3
Efc ......... 85.4
Xair ....... 37.5
I tried closing the air bands to try to get the draft down to -.02, but that wasn't happening. So screw it, let's do an analysis to get a better picture. BTW, I did notice that, like adjusting a carburetor on a gas-powered engine like a weedwhacker or chainsaw, there is a sweet spot while adjusting the air bands. I can hear the sound change going from too little air, to the sweet spot, to too much air. That's gotta be telling me something.
With the boiler HOT and air bands open to .850"
Stack temp ..... 334 F (actual, not net)
CO2% ............. 12.0
O2% ............... 4.9
CO ppm ......... 45
Efc ................. 87.0
Xair ............... 30.6
SMOKE ... 4-1/2
With the boiler HOT and air bands open to .850" Will hit the HI Limit in a few minutes.
Stack temp ..... 354 F (actual, not net)
CO2% ............. 11.9
O2% ............... 4.9
CO ppm ......... 54
Efc ................. 86.4
Xair ............... 30.6
Add air to lower CO2 by 0.5%
With the boiler HOT and air bands open to HALFWAY (1.782"). Will hit the HI Limit in a few seconds.
Stack temp ..... 374 F (actual, not net)
CO2% ............. 11.5
O2% ............... 5.4
CO ppm ......... 56
Efc ................. 85.7
Xair ............... 34.8
SMOKE ... 2 The lowest I could get this was 1-1/2 with the air bands fully open.
The barometric draft regulator is now still mostly closed at this setting, but it is dancing more open, almost floating open about 1/2".
I also noticed that as the boiler gets hotter, that the efficiency drops. Is this because warmer air has less oxygen available compared to denser colder air?
Does anyone think that I need to make the static plate smaller to get more air into the combustion chamber? I would like to reduce the smoke, if possible.
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I don't understand why the burner won't pass enough air to get the smoke down. Something is restricted. boiler baffles, end cone or static disk.
How does your Wayne fan dimensions match up to a Beckett SR fan?0
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