Flame retention head conversion of Wayne E series burner

Alan Muller

One hell of an impressive project. Fine workmanship!
What is the stack temp on the outlet side of that heat exchanger? Is the flue lined? Strikes me that if your objective is to reduce you annual fuel consumption, there are things you could pursue such as a stack damper, and/or an inlet air damper, outside source of combustion air, etc.

EBEBRATT-Ed

i would try a 70 degree hollow and or solid

MikeAmann

Alan Muller said:

One hell of an impressive project. Fine workmanship!
What is the stack temp on the outlet side of that heat exchanger? Is the flue lined? Strikes me that if your objective is to reduce you annual fuel consumption, there are things you could pursue such as a stack damper, and/or an inlet air damper, outside source of combustion air, etc.

Hi Alan, thank you. You mean the heat reclaimer on the outlet of the boiler? I never did test the temperature difference. But going into that unit, the temps are in the 370-400 F range. No, the chimney is not lined. But the cap and the top section of clay pipe has been repaired after I bought the house. And I would love to install a stack damper, but there is no extra room in the sheet metal pipe to do that.

You are leading to if I am getting flue gas condensation, correct? Well, I hate to even say this, but possibly yes. But I don't think it is a direct result of the reclaimer. It has it's own thermostat and cycles periodically.

Ok, here we go..... I should be like other people and be oblivious to noticing things. But that's not me. Last winter I did install a cleanout door for that flue. And I cleaned out a whole bunch of crap - and a lot of sand. But I was the first one ever in there, so how much crap do the mason's drop down there when constructing/repairing the chimney? I think I pulled out 10 gallons.

So I looked in there the other night. It was 20 F outside. I was getting an occasional drop of water hitting the cleanout floor. I thought there was a light rain outside, but no rain. And there is 1/8" of sand on the floor but no soot anymore. I do have a stainless steel chimney cap and the moisture could be condensing on that and dropping down. But that doesn't explain the sand.



Ok, let me have the bad news. And who do I call that is not going to try to take advantage of me and tell me a bunch of lies?

MikeAmann

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

i would try a 70 degree hollow and or solid

Ed, what I call the "bucket" section measures 12" diameter. For the head combo and firing rate I am using, 9" is usually recommended.

MikeAmann

I think I now have enough data to take a somewhat educated guess as to what my limiting factor is to getting the numbers any better. And I believe it is that my baffles are still a little restrictive. The more I increase the firing rate, the worse the numbers go in the wrong direction, mainly the CO ppm increases. And although I have my -.02 over the fire draft, I cannot get the draft in the breach any higher than -.03. When I tried this with one baffle removed, I had great numbers, but also the hot spot and 100 degree higher stack temp. This was also when I was using the too restrictive F0 head giving too high of a smoke reading.

I now have -.03 to -.04 at the breach with one baffle removed.

I have -.03 (2 3 4 on meter) over the fire and -.03 (2 3 4) at the breach. The air band was set at 1.00" open as a starting point looking for a TRACE of smoke. I got a 4. I opened the air band .200" more to 1.200" and got a TRACE. Then I inserted the probe of the analyzer into the breach and got the first column of numbers. The second column is with air added to bring the Co2 down .5% (air band now at 1.558" open). The third column is with the boiler fully hot and about to reach the HI Limit.



Now that I am using the correct F3 head and can achieve zero smoke, and I know the baffles become too restrictive at a firing rate of .77 GPH raising the CO too much, and the F3 head has the low limit of a .65 GPH firing rate (remember SR 1725 rpm specs) ........... I must use either a .60 or .65 GPH nozzle at 120 psi and see whether a solid or hollow nozzle is the better choice. I will start with the .65x70A hollow.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Those are good #s both of them and your CO is down. Are you trying to reduce the firing rate and get the baffle back in or leave it as is??

MikeAmann

Goal is to just get acceptable, safe numbers for the rest of this winter. I can sand a little off the baffle tongues next year. All the baffles are installed right now. There was no way I could let it run without the one baffle and continue with that hot spot.
The numbers directly above are with the incorrect F0 head, not the F3. The F3 passes enough air to get me to zero smoke.

Steamhead

MikeAmann said:

Alan Muller said:

One hell of an impressive project. Fine workmanship!
What is the stack temp on the outlet side of that heat exchanger? Is the flue lined? Strikes me that if your objective is to reduce you annual fuel consumption, there are things you could pursue such as a stack damper, and/or an inlet air damper, outside source of combustion air, etc.

Hi Alan, thank you. You mean the heat reclaimer on the outlet of the boiler? I never did test the temperature difference. But going into that unit, the temps are in the 370-400 F range. No, the chimney is not lined. But the cap and the top section of clay pipe has been repaired after I bought the house. And I would love to install a stack damper, but there is no extra room in the sheet metal pipe to do that.

You are leading to if I am getting flue gas condensation, correct? Well, I hate to even say this, but possibly yes. But I don't think it is a direct result of the reclaimer. It has it's own thermostat and cycles periodically.

Ok, here we go..... I should be like other people and be oblivious to noticing things. But that's not me. Last winter I did install a cleanout door for that flue. And I cleaned out a whole bunch of crap - and a lot of sand. But I was the first one ever in there, so how much crap do the mason's drop down there when constructing/repairing the chimney? I think I pulled out 10 gallons.

So I looked in there the other night. It was 20 F outside. I was getting an occasional drop of water hitting the cleanout floor. I thought there was a light rain outside, but no rain. And there is 1/8" of sand on the floor but no soot anymore. I do have a stainless steel chimney cap and the moisture could be condensing on that and dropping down. But that doesn't explain the sand.



Ok, let me have the bad news. And who do I call that is not going to try to take advantage of me and tell me a bunch of lies?

The sand is probably deteriorating mortar. You need a stainless-steel liner. You might try NextDoor for local chimney contractor recommendations.

SuperTech

Yes, your low stack temperature is causing condensing flue gas and is killing your masonry liner. I've hurt my own chimney foolishly chasing optimum efficiency and I'm installing an insulated stainless steel chimney liner myself the next chance I get. I saw similar things in my cleanout access.  Never drops of water, but flakes of terracotta, sand and other debris. Don't focus too much on combustion efficiency, seasonal efficiency and fuel consumption can be improved in many other ways besides going for higher combustion efficiency. 

MikeAmann

Ah, the cost of efficiency. Make an improvement in one area, and it costs you more in another.
I'm not opposed to a stainless steel liner, actually I think it's a good idea. But I would like it to last forever.
Stupid me.
How high does the stack temperature need to be to prevent flue gas condensation (actual measured flue temp at breach)?

Thank you and have a Merry Christmas.

MikeAmann

SuperTech said:

Yes, your low stack temperature is causing condensing flue gas and is killing your masonry liner. I've hurt my own chimney foolishly chasing optimum efficiency and I'm installing an insulated stainless steel chimney liner myself the next chance I get. I saw similar things in my cleanout access.  Never drops of water, but flakes of terracotta, sand and other debris. Don't focus too much on combustion efficiency, seasonal efficiency and fuel consumption can be improved in many other ways besides going for higher combustion efficiency. 

I would love to install the liner myself (I think I would do a better job, but I think that about most things), but CODE where I am probably requires a professional, a permit, and inspection.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Maybe it condensed in the past. Shouldn't condense at 325, looks like your above that now

MikeAmann

Could be Ed. The past setup before this conversion had the conventional burner with a .85 GPH nozzle and lots of soot. The heat reclaimer is not a new addition - it was there with the previous configuration. It does not pull all of the heat out of the flue gas. And it's fan is off more than on.

I don't know if I ever tried this in the past, but now I can stick my hand into the flue pipe at the draft regulator and never get burned. I know the temp at the breach gets to 400 F.

Yesterday I swapped in the .65x70A hollow nozzle. This should bring the CO down to around 50 ppm and let the burner run a little longer cycle. There is no short-cycling now with the new controls.
And tonight I finished hooking up my warning alarm/buzzer to the alarm contacts of the Pro-X primary control.

MikeAmann

Last night I reinstalled the check valve for the IWH back where I had it.
Then I flipped the switch to heat the IWH tank. The boiler water was 170 F and the heating circulator was also running. Engaging the IWH automatically fires the burner. What was nice to see was that the boiler water wasn't losing any heat - the temperature actually slowly increased. So I am very satisfied with the firing rate I have right now - .65 nozzle at 120 psi = .71 GPH.

STEVEusaPA

Is this your boiler?
https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/j3/fpls9cijexxw.png

MikeAmann

YES.

STEVEusaPA

That device on your flue is affecting your draft and killing your stack temperature

EBEBRATT-Ed

LOL now I see why the breeching draft is so low. That could also splain the chimney condensation

SuperTech

I doubt that "heat recovery" device is worth the trouble of dealing with poor draft, flue gas condensation and eventual chimney liner replacement/installation.
If it was a great idea the engineers would be designing the modern equipment to include things like that.

MikeAmann

To use a word from Mythbusters - totally plausible. That unit ran much more before the FR head conversion and other upgrades, now it hardly runs at all. So now it's time to remove that reclaimer and install a flue vent damper this summer when I remove the breach cover to see how the boiler did this winter. It will be more effective to keep the boiler from cooling off than capturing a (now) very small amount of heat for the basement and continue to destroy the chimney.

My vent pipe is 7". Where do I install the damper - breach > draft regulator > vent damper OR breach > vent damper > draft regulator? And do I still need to have the chimney lined with stainless steel?

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Field-Controls-OVD-7-7-Oil-Vent-Damper-11823000-p


Apparently these devices get great initial reviews, but they don't hold up very long and then get negative reviews. If you have to replace this thing every year, then where is the savings?

Steamhead

You should be able to just replace the motor unit instead of the entire damper. At least, you can on their gas models.

MikeAmann

The good thing about the heat reclaimer - it is the ONLY thing I ever bought that you just pull it out of the box, install it, and it works. AND IT NEVER BROKE - no problems at all. EVER.

STEVEusaPA

Yeah it works, at the cost of your stack temperature and draft.

MikeAmann

STEVEusaPA said:

Is this your boiler?
That device on your flue is affecting your draft and killing your stack temperature.
https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/j3/fpls9cijexxw.png

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

LOL now I see why the breeching draft is so low. That could also splain the chimney condensation.

I have been gathering the pieces and parts to remove the heat reclaimer because I don't want to do any further damage to the chimney or install a SS liner if I don't have to. The future plan is this:

I am not so sure on the vent damper because the reviews say these units fail all the time - which easily eats up any savings that you might have gained should you have to keep replacing or repairing the unit. I fully agree with the concept, though.

So Friday night it was 18 F outside and I thought to myself, What better time to tear the top of the boiler off and get that reclaimer out of there. All I need to do at this point is to replace it with a section of straight pipe. I don't need to move the draft regulator right now. I was also really curious as to how much soot I was going to find - it was considerable before the FR head conversion.

Pleasant surprise, the amount of soot that I found wouldn't total a half of a teaspoon.


In the past when I removed the breach cover with the heat reclaimer still attached, I would take it outside and blow it out with compressed air, creating a pretty big black cloud. I didn't even wear gloves while doing this and my hands were still almost clean when finished.

Before, I could keep my hands on the pipe and never get burned. I could even stick my hand in through the barometric damper opening towards the 90 degree elbow and just feel warm air. That is definitely not the case now. You can't touch the pipes now for more than 1 second or you will get burned. Therefore, the flue gas temperature has significantly increased (or should I say that the reclaimer is no longer pulling the heat out of the flue gas) and I should no longer be causing any more damage to my clay pipe flue. I wonder if the draft has increased?



I am not sure if I will be able to borrow the combustion analyzer any more, so I need to order a draft gauge and pocket thermometer. Recommendations please. Here is what SupplyHouse has:
https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/search/~SEARCH_STRING=pocket thermometer
https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/search/~SEARCH_STRING=draft gauge

New problem: I took a look inside the cleanout for this flue and saw water - 2 inches of water! Not at all what I expected. It was almost 2 gallons. I am going to say that there is no way this is from flue gas condensation. Let me stop right here and mention that my roof got reshingled this summer and of course the flashing around the chimney was replaced. Could that be causing this problem?
So anyways, it did snow two days ago. What the heck is going on here?

EBEBRATT-Ed

Hard to say but when you can hold your hand in the flue gas your getting condensation

Steamhead

MikeAmann said:

STEVEusaPA said:

Is this your boiler?
That device on your flue is affecting your draft and killing your stack temperature.
https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/j3/fpls9cijexxw.png

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

LOL now I see why the breeching draft is so low. That could also splain the chimney condensation.

I have been gathering the pieces and parts to remove the heat reclaimer because I don't want to do any further damage to the chimney or install a SS liner if I don't have to. The future plan is this:

I am not so sure on the vent damper because the reviews say these units fail all the time - which easily eats up any savings that you might have gained should you have to keep replacing or repairing the unit. I fully agree with the concept, though.

So Friday night it was 18 F outside and I thought to myself, What better time to tear the top of the boiler off and get that reclaimer out of there. All I need to do at this point is to replace it with a section of straight pipe. I don't need to move the draft regulator right now. I was also really curious as to how much soot I was going to find - it was considerable before the FR head conversion.

Pleasant surprise, the amount of soot that I found wouldn't total a half of a teaspoon.


In the past when I removed the breach cover with the heat reclaimer still attached, I would take it outside and blow it out with compressed air, creating a pretty big black cloud. I didn't even wear gloves while doing this and my hands were still almost clean when finished.

Before, I could keep my hands on the pipe and never get burned. I could even stick my hand in through the barometric damper opening towards the 90 degree elbow and just feel warm air. That is definitely not the case now. You can't touch the pipes now for more than 1 second or you will get burned. Therefore, the flue gas temperature has significantly increased (or should I say that the reclaimer is no longer pulling the heat out of the flue gas) and I should no longer be causing any more damage to my clay pipe flue. I wonder if the draft has increased?



I am not sure if I will be able to borrow the combustion analyzer any more, so I need to order a draft gauge and pocket thermometer. Recommendations please. Here is what SupplyHouse has:
https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/search/~SEARCH_STRING=pocket thermometer
https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/search/~SEARCH_STRING=draft gauge

New problem: I took a look inside the cleanout for this flue and saw water - 2 inches of water! Not at all what I expected. It was almost 2 gallons. I am going to say that there is no way this is from flue gas condensation. Let me stop right here and mention that my roof got reshingled this summer and of course the flashing around the chimney was replaced. Could that be causing this problem?
So anyways, it did snow two days ago. What the heck is going on here?

Time for a stainless-steel liner.

STEVEusaPA

If you had snow, it's possible with the original configuration, snow and ice settled on/in the flue at the top, then melted down. Or an ice/snow dam at the top just melted (or came thru the flashing).
That small draft gauge is kinda junk and not very accurate. The thermometer is fine.
Proper draft gauge, full combustion test will give a better picture of what's going on (or in).

MikeAmann

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Hard to say but when you can hold your hand in the flue gas your getting condensation

I can NO LONGER hold my hand in the flue gas without getting burned. Read further up, please.
The heat reclaimer is removed. There must be something else going on here.
I correct all of these problems and things keep getting worse.
This is NOT how it's supposed to work out!

MikeAmann

STEVEusaPA said:

If you had snow, it's possible with the original configuration, snow and ice settled on/in the flue at the top, then melted down. Or an ice/snow dam at the top just melted (or came thru the flashing).
That small draft gauge is kinda junk and not very accurate. The thermometer is fine.
Proper draft gauge, full combustion test will give a better picture of what's going on (or in).

The chimney flues have a large SS cap covering both. The crown was redone (and top section of clay liner replaced) right after I bought the house 20 years ago. I made the mason do the crown the correct way - using the forms for an overhanging drip edge. Like this:




Here is today's forecast:
Today: Freezing rain, light ice accumulations likely, switching to some afternoon rain, overcast, and breezy at times. High: 38 inland, 41 shore.

Tonight: Early rain showers and even a couple snow showers possible. Otherwise, mostly cloudy. Lows: 20-30.

Monday: Partly cloudy, and cold. Low: 25. High: 32 inland, 34 shore.

I will be monitoring this to see what is really going on.
If I must, I can turn the heat completely off to rule out anything associated with the boiler.

MikeAmann

Tonight I looked inside the cleanout after vacuuming out the water the night before. The floor was nearly dry. The weather outside was 36 degrees and the snow was melting. All roads were wet.
I placed plastic trays on the bottom of the cleanout floor to catch any drips and fired the boiler for 20 minutes. Then I looked inside again. It rained inside the chimney.





I was able to get some pics looking up from the cleanout end:





And just to mention, I used the IWH to fire the burner for that 20 minutes.
Tank was cold, pressure started at 50 psi, and it finished here:



I am getting flue gas condensation. So an insulated SS liner will keep the acid from further attacking the masonry. Will I still get the water? And was this happening for years but I just didn't know about it before I added the cleanout door? Or is this my payback for making the burner run cleaner and more efficient?

EBEBRATT-Ed

You shouldn't be getting condensation with the stack temp you have now. Looks like you have some. broken tile up there. How big is the flue tile? the area of the tile should not exceed 7x the area of the boiler flue pipe I doubt that it does.

Maybe there is moisture in the chimney that needs to dry out. Is this an outside chimney?

MikeAmann

Brick house and the chimney is on the south end of the house.
It does not go through the roof, if that is what you mean by outside chimney.

What you see broken is just the corner of the last section of tile.
If you look closely, you can see the water drops hanging from that last tile.
They then run down the concrete sides. The water (condensation) is definitely originating INSIDE of the clay tile.

The arctic air is moving in now, so temps will be frigid.
When warmer, I want to send an extension cord with a very bright LED bulb down the flue to do my own inspection.
I have the flue brushes, but I can't remember what the sizes are. I will guess at 8" x 12" or maybe 6" x 10". Can't say for sure right now, but I will measure.
The pipe coming out of the boiler is 7" and transitions to 8" at the wall going into the chimney.

Can someone please provide a good link I can read to educate myself on this?

MikeAmann

I think this sums it up nicely:

Up the Chimney

The gas going up the chimney or exhaust pipe includes a large quantity of water vapor. When everything is working properly, the vapor is pushed up out of the the end of the pipe and into the atmosphere before it condenses. If something is awry, the vapor cools before it exits the flue and condenses right then and there. In order to stop the vapor from condensing, conditions must be adjusted so that it does not cool before leaving the chimney.

Size Matters

A flue that is too large allows too much air to circulate, making it difficult for the warm gas and vapors exiting the furnace to create a strong updraft up and out of the vent. Instead, cold air from the top pushes the warm air down and traps it in the flue. As the vapor sits in the flue it cools, creating condensation.


Downside of Upgrades

New furnaces hooked up to existing flues can result in condensation problems because they are more efficient than old models. While much of the heat produced by older heaters was lost out the flue, this heat prevented condensation by keeping the chimney or vent pipe warm so that air moved upward. Newer models keep most of the heat moving into the home, which results in a cooler flue. This means that the vapor has a much greater chance of cooling and condensing in the flue than it did with the old furnace.

Danger, Danger

Condensation in the flue or vent pipe is not dangerous in itself, but can create a dangerous condition. Over time, the moisture, as well as the chemicals released by the furnace, can damage the flue and vent pipe. Rust and corrosion create leaks that allow the vapor to make its way into your home. This exhaust from the furnace contains dangerous carbon monoxide. Have a technician check the flue for leaks and test your home's carbon monoxide levels if you notice moisture in the furnace vent. Carbon monoxide is odorless and colorless, and it can be deadly.

EBEBRATT-Ed

When it's cold enough outside the warm flue gas is going to condense as soon as it hits the cold air. How long are your burner run times?

One advantage to a liner is that it heats almost instantly

MikeAmann

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

When it's cold enough outside the warm flue gas is going to condense as soon as it hits the cold air. How long are your burner run times?

One advantage to a liner is that it heats almost instantly.

With 20 degrees outside, once the house is heated up, the circulator runs constantly to maintain the 65 degree temp, and the burner runs for 5 to 6 minutes, then off for 10 minutes, repeat. The test I did last night, the burner ran for 20 minutes.

MikeAmann

I don't plan to go through what this guy in Canada did. Same problem: https://www.doityourself.com/forum/boilers-home-heating-steam-hot-water-systems/480264-how-combat-condensation-chimney.html

MikeAmann

I have some chimney measurements:
From cleanout floor to the top of the flue pipe is 23' 4".
6' 8" is the inside basement concrete wall.
There is about 8" from the 2x6 on the foundation to the ground, so 6' is below ground.
The boiler flue pipe enters the chimney about 1 foot down from the 2x6.
The clay flue liner measures 6x10 inches.

MikeAmann

I am going to start a new thread on this. There isn't a separate category for chimneys & flues.