wildly different quotes - energy kinectics proposals

justin73

Hello all, homeowner here.

Need to replace my 35+ yo boiler - currently working but leaking water - so should make it OK until spring, when I want to do this work.

Had the two biggest local oil companies out to give me a quote - both took the same basic measurements (number of feet of baseboard, number of zones etc ).

Both proposed Energy Kinetics solutions - which I had never heard of to be honest, but after doing research seem like a good choice - but one proposed the EK1 with the Beckett AFG oil burner, the other propose the EK-2F boiler with a Carlin oil burner.

From what I found, the EK1 is 150KBTU and the EK2 is 250K BTU.

My house is not huge - about 3200sf (big, but not enormous), and is about 60 years old with average insulation and now all new windows/doors.

Two questions (and welcome any other useful info):

How can two companies come up with such a wildly different boiler size for the same house? Is one undersizing it and one oversizing it? Shouldn't they have come up with the same required size given access to the same information? How do I know who is right?

also the total cost of install (all parts/labor/taxes/permits) of the EK-1 comes in at less than 1/2 the cost of the EK-2 install - does that make sense? Labor should be about the same with either, so does make sense that an EK2 installed would cost twice as much as an EK-1


Thoughts?

PS: All of my baseboard is cast-iron - does that make a difference? i.e. if one vendor had/had not accounted for that and assumed copper/fin, would it have change the size of the required BTU's enough to account for the 150K vs 250K BTU recommendation?

KC_Jones

Please edit your post to remove pricing, we don't discuss that here.

Hot water boilers are sized by the heatloss of the building, not how much baseboard, house square footage, or the old boiler size. I would suggest both quotes are probably too big. You need to find a company that will do a Manual J heatloss calculation to size the boiler properly. They may not do it upfront, but it should be in the quote. Honestly, as a homeowner, knowing what I do, I'd perform my own heatloss calculation so I can make an educated decision and verify they are doing their calcs at least close.

Slant Fin has a nice app that you can input all your house information (room by room) and it will develop a heatloss number.

pecmsg

KC_Jones said:

Please edit your post to remove pricing, we don't discuss that here.

Hot water boilers are sized by the heatloss of the building, not how much baseboard, house square footage, or the old boiler size. I would suggest both quotes are probably too big. You need to find a company that will do a Manual J heatloss calculation to size the boiler properly. They may not do it upfront, but it should be in the quote. Honestly, as a homeowner, knowing what I do, I'd perform my own heatloss calculation so I can make an educated decision and verify they are doing their calcs at least close.

Slant Fin has a nice app that you can input all your house information (room by room) and it will develop a heatloss number.

HVACNUT

Unless your in the Arctic circle and keep the windows open in the winter, the EK-1 Frontier should be fine. But as mentioned, a heat loss calculation should be done. Was the EK-2 recommended due to domestic hot water needs? Giant jacuzzi?

EdTheHeaterMan

Since you have until the Spring to make your decision (about a week and a half away) I would do the Slant Fin load calculation. http://www.hydronicexplorer.com/ There is a video here and the calculator is pretty self-explanatory. You just need to understand that a room with another room above it loses no heat UP. A room with another room below it loses no heat DOWN. Put the actual room floor dimensions but when entering the "outside wall", only put the information for the walls, floors, and ceilings that are exposed to the outdoors. In the Trade, we would call that "The Envelope".

Once you have the wall dimensions entered, select the proper multiplier based on the wall construction and insulation material. Same for floors and ceilings. I find it helpful to draw a diagram and check off each wall door and window as they are entered into the calculation. If you have any questions on something, you can post the results here and we can guide you if you feel there is a mistake of just want verification that it is correct.

When entering information on rooms that are unusual shapes use a little common sense so as not to get your calculation way over-sized. Vaulted ceilings throughout the home can make the calculation oversized if there are a lot of them. Remember the entire room is not 10 or 12 or 16 feet high. just the middle part, so you need to compensate. In the illustration I show here, there is only one room that is oversized. No big thing. But if the entire home is this way... well just use some common sense.

Lance

Justin73, I hear your question. I have installed EK before & many other brands. My first concern is what equipment best fits the application. Sometimes even electric baseboard is the better. Fossil fuel using indoor air creates its own btu load. Eliminating a flue or chimney has a lot of benefits. Many a home can use a much smaller heat plant, if infiltration is reduced. Smaller heat units make for other equipment choices. EK only makes sense when it uses outdoor air for combustion. Outdoor air for fossil fuel can save up to 17% energy costs, no matter what the afue of a burner is. If a fuel company is biased, a non fuel company might offer alternatives. RED flag: radiation length & sizes, are not load size equivalents unless they match the heat loss calculation of the dwelling. Especially if the dwelling has become more insulated overtime. With two or less people living alone, an electric water heater is not a bad option, especially in the non winter seasons.

Zman

@Lance
I would like read the source of your figures. Are we talking about the additional infiltration caused by a inadequately ventilated mech room? The efficiency difference between having the boiler heat the outside air internally vs heating it with the waste energy as it passes through the boiler room is not significant.

Unless your grid is running on >60% renewables or nuclear. You will burn more fossil fuels with electricity. The cost per btu of electricity is higher than oil in most regions as well.

GW

Wowa I’d be shocked if the heat loss is over 70,000 btu. Maybe get some more quotes 
Edit—-who cares how much bb there is now? 😳 

STEVEusaPA

How much oil did you burn in one complete year, and what’s your zip code?

Robert O'Brien

STEVEusaPA said:

How much oil did you burn in one complete year, and what’s your zip code?

I know where this is going!😎

unclejohn

What size boiler do you have now, and I would say after 35 years as close to that as you can get would be fine.

SuperTech

The EK-1 is the best oil fired boiler you can get in my opinion.  I don't think you need an EK-2, that's crazy. Sizing and heat loss is important, I would still try to make sure you know how many BTUs you need on the coldest days of the year. Your venting needs to be considered as well, you might need a chimney liner. 

Roger

Thank you for your post, @justin73 , and for everyone's comments. And nice work on the the very useful "short course" on heat loss calculations, @EdTheHeaterMan !

I'd like to coordinate with your Energy Kinetics dealers so we can review your application and sizing for your home, if it's OK with you. The disparity in sizing is certainly a concern, and it will give us an opportunity to ensure that no details were missed or misinterpreted and if a calculation was incorrect, we will work to review and make sure best practices are used.

For reference, outdoor air for combustion has the advantages of controlling the air source (so it is not pulled in through windows, doors, or other infiltration areas), it isolates the burner from the home and negative pressures that could cause issues (especially important if weatherization or better sealing of the home occurs), and it can quiet operation somewhat. It has a minimal impact on reducing heat loss. The big impact on reducing heat loss is when a draft regulator or draft hood is eliminated; this can reduce fuel consumption by as much as 10%, but it can only be done if the appliance is designed for use without it. Due to our extremely stable combustion, all of Energy Kinetics boilers are UL listed for use without a draft regulator and one must not be installed, this does contribute to additional energy savings over systems with draft regulators.

Best,
Roger