Better Quality Low Level Carbon Monoxide Monitor/Detectors

captainco

I want to call the two least knowledgeable.in CO. 40+years of studying
CO and personal experiences I state this with confidence.
Vet contractors??? The only thing that is vetted is price! If you have read all the pleas for CO on this site, for the past few years; you would know this

Sal Santamaura

captainco said:

I want to call the two least knowledgeable.in CO. 40+years of studying
CO and personal experiences I state this with confidence...

?? Not sure what this means. Does it refer to Jamie and me?

captainco said:

...Vet contractors??? The only thing that is vetted is price! If you have read all the pleas for CO on this site, for the past few years; you would know this

Again, that ignores who's doing the vetting. I've been regularly reading (and posting to) this site and Dan's predecessor sites since 1998. What does "pleas for CO for the past few years" mean? While the media have run more CO articles lately (only some of them adequate to the task), a check of The Wall's main page shows 423 threads under the Carbon Monixide Awareness category compared to 85,000 under THE MAIN WALL. I come here daily and have not noticed a recent significant uptick in CO threads or anything I'd describe as "pleas." Certainly not pleas for CO.

Jim, can we all get along? Don't sell your monitors to anyone you don't want to. But please don't lobby the rest of us to settle for inferior UL-listed CO alarms. Because that's what you're doing when you argue against purchasing monitors from your competition.

captainco

Top 3 CO ignorance - 1. Fuel/gas companies
2, Fire Departments
3. Doctors
Sal, this is not a argument, or at least it wasn't supposed to be, We
want everyone to have a low level CO Monitor. We only know what happens on a regular basis when they go off. If contractors want to remain ignorant so be it.

Sal Santamaura

captainco said:

Top 3 CO ignorance - 1. Fuel/gas companies
2, Fire Departments
3. Doctors...

Perhaps NCI might market its training to them in that case.

captainco said:

...Sal, this is not a argument, or at least it wasn't supposed to be...

Good. I appreciate the clarification, and wonder whether my earlier suggestion has any merit in your view.

captainco said:

...We want everyone to have a low level CO Monitor. We only know what happens on a regular basis when they go off. If contractors want to remain ignorant so be it.

It's worthwhile to consider how an informed consumer like me might vet contractors should my CO Experts monitor indicate a problem that my initial analysis isolates to, say, the furnace. Being aware of training NCI provides, I'd likely contact one holding your "Carbon Monoxide Safety and Combustion Analysis" certification to follow up. According to NCI's "Find a Certified Professional" Web page, the nearest is 30.0 miles away from my home. As a technically savvy degreed electrical engineer, I'm perfectly capable of handling small electrical repairs. Around a dozen years ago, despite the extraordinarily small number of hours our 1993 Bryant runs in this benign climate, I did need to climb up into the attic to replace its control board and flame sensor. Given my background, I perceived no risk in performing those tasks. It would have been unnecessary to call Albert Air, Inc. down from Anaheim, or any other contractor for that matter. However, in the hypothetical situation where a CO problem is determined to originate from the furnace, that's exactly who I'd contact. In the words of Harry Callahan, a man's got to know his limitations.

Back to specific low-level CO monitors, I am satisfied with the CO Experts models I've owned over the years. I cannot fathom going to the trouble and expense of involving Albert Air, Inc., or an even more distant NCI-certified contractor, in purchasing and installing an NSI-6000. Something I'm perfectly capable of doing properly myself. If other low-level CO monitors are inferior to any significant degree, I still maintain refusing to sell them freely has the potential to do more harm than good.

captainco

We have offered training to fire departments and utilities and they have said no. There have been a few exceptions. Knowing what caused a CO problem is good, but knowing how to eliminate it is more important.
Never said the NSI CO Monitor was the best. They are all good as far as I am concerned. The reason most contractors don't sell them is because they are afraid they will go off.

Jamie Hall

Go to admit that I find some of the comments condescending. This is not good advertising for either the "expert" or the expert's product.

That said. The problem with a CO monitor for low levels is quite similar to the problem with other hazardous atmosphere monitors (including a person's nose for LP and natural gas with tracers): how do you evaluate the degree of real hazard, and the appropriate response? Alarm which are quite sensitive -- many smoke alarms, for instance -- result in people, including very knowledgeable people, ignoring them. This was a problem with the earlier (I'm talking 40 years ago now) CO alarms on aircraft for instance, but fortunately both the alarms have gotten significantly more intelligent over the years so they no longer have hysterics when someone is smoking a pipe on board (the first one I had did that) and the checklists to be actioned have also gotten more intelligent.

Some hazardous condition alarms (hydrogen sulphide, low oxygen) are simple no-go or self contained or supplied air breathing apparatus decisions. Some are don't turn anything on or off and get out of dodge decisions, such as a smell of gas. Some allow a more nuanced response (and very low level -- CO for one) with a variety of action checklists.

Then there is the problem of who should be called upon in the event of an alarm activation. As it happens, I don't think most contractors -- never mind first responders -- are quite the morons as has been implied. This is particularly true of first responders; even the most rural first responders are required to have -- and have -- some remarkably good information and training on what to do in the event of X (although, to be fair, this isn't always the case with their dispatchers...). There are some hazardous situations where they are not permitted to take action further than getting everyone out of the blast radius and waiting -- natural gas is a particularly bad situation that way, but electric companies can be a bit slow on the response as well. And sometimes they, being human, will act on insufficient information or thought, as tragically happened recently in a gas explosion.. Depending entirely on an outside expert (defined as someone from out of town with a briefcase, clean shoes, and a bill) may not be either needed or appropriate, however -- never mind timely and is rarely the appropriate first choice.

Bottom line. If low level CO monitors are to become genuinely useful, they should be designed to discriminate against false alarms to the extent possible, which with modern computer equipment should not be difficult, and at least first responders need to have the information -- freely available -- to assist in determining who to call further. Contractors need to be able to purchase and install equipment; an addition to or modification of code might be needed to eliminate cheap (or expensive...) devices which didn't measure up, but no more nor less than a control board for a boiler -- or an arc fault interrupter, for that -- the options need to be there.

And I'll say it again: working to sell proprietary equipment is all very fine, and a business model which sometimes works. It is not beneficial either to the safety of the public, or acceptance by the public or professionals, however.

captainco

Jamie - Do you own a combustion Analyzer? How many times have you been called for a CO specific problem. How many fire departments have you talk to about CO?
People know I am not an expert. I am knowledgeable and experienced beyond, Just guessing, everyone on this sight. I do not say this to make me look good but to express my disappoint in the HVAC industry which I have been in for over 50 years. I had no intention of ending up with the knowledge or experience I have. I was just doing my best to help others do their best. Knowing just a few things from the internet is hardly a good start.

Jamie Hall

Captain, I was in the hazmat business for over 20 years. I didn't own the equipment -- my company did. We were trained, and I have used, almost every hazardous gas detector made, and even worked in environments where I needed a positive pressure bunny suit (they are not comfortable). I don't recall how many times CO was part or all of the problem... Of all the gasses I have had to deal with, I personally regard hydrogen sulphide as the most dangerous, although phosgene comes in a close second. I don't regard myself as an expert -- no two jobs were alike; there was always something to learn. I don't do my own combustion analysis on my fuel burning household equipment (I have a friend who is an expert at that). I would regard myself as knowledgeable in such topics as CO, but it would never occur to me to presume that I was more knowledgeable than anyone else on this site -- or any other site for that matter. I certainly would not presume to be more knowledgeable than you in all aspects. I have personally never met a person I couldn't learn something from, and I hope that one or two others I have met may have learned something from me from time to time.

Bluntly, however, for you to state, and I quote, " I am knowledgeable and experienced beyond, Just guessing, everyone on this sight" (It's "site" by the way, not "sight") is an extraordinarily arrogant statement, and a mark of a charlatan, not an expert or professional.

Or to put it another way... be careful how you poke the bear.

Br. Jamie, osb. And, by the way PE (civil/sanitary/agricultural), PhD

CLamb

For me as a homeowner the great advantage of a low-level CO monitor is not the alarm but the display of the CO level. It lets me know if the level is creeping up or if there is a sudden rise. Standard CO alarms are just like the idiot lights on automobiles. They tell you that something has failed but don't tell you when something is approaching failure.

captainco

Janie - do not like to state I am the most knowledgeable and experienced person. I only do it to scare away pretenders. We already have enough bad information out there for consumers and contractors. Google Jim Davis Carbon Monoxide. This subject is my passion, my crusade and my vocation.