Better Quality Low Level Carbon Monoxide Monitor/Detectors

Derheatmeister

Up to now we offered the NSI 3000 Carbon Monoxide Monitors which are sold by NCI only to be installed by certified Carbon Monoxide Specialists.
We are looking for a different manufacturer.
I am not interested in cheap off the shelf/home center type Carbon Monoxide Detectors that plug into an outlet and will only alert after you have been subjected to 400 ppm for 15 minutes...That is too late for my level and we will not sell such devices.
I hear great things about the Defender and Co Experts.
Does anybody know of a decent low level Carbon Monoxide Detector that would help keep our customers safe in the event of a spillage.
Thank you for your help.
Richard.

Canucker

I'm interested in hearing an answer to this. Availability in Canada would be nice as well.

Derheatmeister

We reached out to different Manufactures and are going to try the Defender LL6170.

1. We like the features it has to offer, it is probably better that the NSI 3000.
2. We like the cost.
3. Another thing we like is, if there was ever a warranty claim, shipping it back to them would be Prepaid.
4. The customer service tech was very knowable and friendly.

Stay Tuned...Six of them will arrive at our office soon and be put to test in the next weeks to come.

mattmia2

@Derheatmeister how did this turn out?

captainco

The NSI 3000 is now the NSI 6000. Not available on Amazon.
Has 30 day data logging. And yes, we don't like to sell to
unqualified contractors. Alarms and Monitors don't prevent CO
problems, they just let us know there is a problem!!
Richard do you think that contractors that we don't train
know the truth?

mattmia2

@captainco what about for continuous monitoring of one's residence? Feel free to link to previous posts. I couldn't find any great posts when I was looking last night but the way this site gets searched even through google is weird.

captainco

Continuous monitors are high level CO only.

WMno57

https://coexperts.shop/

captainco

consumers should buy their own detectors??

Sal Santamaura

captainco said:

consumers should buy their own detectors??

Why not? I'm an informed consumer who's purchased and installed a series of CO Experts monitors in my home for many, many years. Around a decade and a half, if memory serves. In addition to always meeting code by having UL-listed CO detectors on each floor. Why would you not want to sell me an NSI 6000 if it's superior?

mattmia2

captainco said:

Continuous monitors are high level CO only.

do you man products like defender or co experts don't exist or that for some reason we shouldn't be aware if something has broken on my direct vent appliances or range hood and co has collected inside?

dko

This is their explanation

https://www.nciblog.com/nsi-6000-co-monitors/

ChrisJ

dko said:

This is their explanation

https://www.nciblog.com/nsi-6000-co-monitors/

Yeah.......

mattmia2

dko said:

This is their explanation

https://www.nciblog.com/nsi-6000-co-monitors/

I understand all of that. None of that makes @captainco 's comment about "Continuous monitors are high level CO only." make sense. It appears that numerous manufacturers make low level monitors for continuous monitoring on someone's home.

dko

Only makes sense if he was thinking about a unit that alarms only after a certain PPM level has been reached and maintained for a extended period of time "continuously monitoring a high level situation before alarming." The NSI 6000 is also a continuous monitor but alarms and beeps in minutes and continuously whenever a specific PPM has been detected. But he would already know that so the comment on it's own definitely makes no sense.

But i'm not him and not going to put words in his mouth

captainco

If a consumer buys a CO alarm or monitor online or at a store, who do they call when it goes off?

captainco

Obviously you need an ambulance if you need medical attention. That is why UL2034 was written so fire departments wouldn't have to make
nuisance calls. Gas companies are just going to turn off your gas or tell you your alarm is bad. But who is going to determine the problem and fix it. Don't see any body here.

ChrisJ

captainco said:

Obviously you need an ambulance if you need medical attention. That is why UL2034 was written so fire departments wouldn't have to make
nuisance calls. Gas companies are just going to turn off your gas or tell you your alarm is bad. But who is going to determine the problem and fix it. Don't see any body here.

Since we're not allowed to buy the device we won't know there's a problem in the first place.

Problem solved I guess.

ethicalpaul

captainco said:

Obviously you need an ambulance if you need medical attention. That is why UL2034 was written so fire departments wouldn't have to make
nuisance calls. Gas companies are just going to turn off your gas or tell you your alarm is bad. But who is going to determine the problem and fix it. Don't see any body here.

I assume a competent HVAC professional who would do a combustion test and system inspection...if you can find one!

mattmia2

By that logic i should only be able to buy a microwave through a cooking school because I might not know how to cook.

captainco

what does cooking have to do with someone playing with a deadly device in my building? However, even microwave ovens have more correct directions than combustion analyzers.

captainco

Years ago, when I worked with an HVAC distributor, I refused to sell combustion analyzers to people because they were too ignorant. That commitment has not changed to this day.

captainco

Check your knowledge - Cracked heat exchangers have never been the actual cause of a CO poisoning. Over sized flues have never caused a CO poisoning. Lack of combustion air has never caused a CO poisoning, Combustion analyzer out of calibration have never caused a CO poisoning.

ethicalpaul

captainco said:

Years ago, when I worked with an HVAC distributor, I refused to sell combustion analyzers to people because they were too ignorant. That commitment has not changed to this day.

Weren’t we talking about CO monitors?

captainco

Just trying to explain why NCI doesn't sell their low level CO monitor to everyone.

ethicalpaul

And why don't they again? Their web site was double-speak.

captainco

We are the only occupation with the potential ability to investigate, diagnose and correct CO problems, How many contractors would like to be called on every CO incident in their location to determine the cause and make the necessary corrections to prevent them in the future, knowing the immense liability it carries?

ethicalpaul

So they are doing it to protect those other contractors? That is nice of them!

captainco

If you haven't read the posts in the Carbon Monoxide Discussion it might be beneficial to go back and read them!!

ChrisJ

captainco said:

We are the only occupation with the potential ability to investigate, diagnose and correct CO problems, How many contractors would like to be called on every CO incident in their location to determine the cause and make the necessary corrections to prevent them in the future, knowing the immense liability it carries?

So, if I hire a contractor that's an NSI distributor, I can be 100% confident they know what they're doing and will not put me or my family at risk?

Bob Harper

I'm puzzled by some of the smart remarks here. Look, if you don't like NCI's policy on their products, go buy someone else's. Jim is the leading expert in the US(world?) on CO. He follows all the major reporting. He talks with contractors at trade shows. Most techs don't know where to put the monitors, what to coach the occupants on, and that the mechanisms are for CO exposure, much less how to run combustion analysis and make use/ sense of the readings. Nobody can guarantee 100% safety on anything. That's absurd. We can make things safe-er. We can make combustion equipment suitable for continued use within a structure when used according to the mfrs. instructions.
Maybe NCI is worried about contractors making uneducated decisions and giving poor advice to owners about such monitors, how many they need, where to put them, etc.

Sal Santamaura

Sal Santamaura said:

captainco said:

consumers should buy their own detectors??

Why not? I'm an informed consumer who's purchased and installed a series of CO Experts monitors in my home for many, many years. Around a decade and a half, if memory serves. In addition to always meeting code by having UL-listed CO detectors on each floor. Why would you not want to sell me an NSI 6000 if it's superior?

dko said:

This is their explanation

https://www.nciblog.com/nsi-6000-co-monitors/

That's an explanation of why education is needed, not valid reasoning to justify keeping low-level CO monitors out of the hands of informed consumers.

captainco said:

If a consumer buys a CO alarm or monitor online or at a store, who do they call when it goes off?

I am fully cognizant of the dangers of CO, as well its sources in my Southern California home. There is a natural gas-fired furnace in the well-ventilated attic, a natural gas-fired cooktop in the kitchen and a natural gas-fired water heater on a platform in the attached garage. Should my CO Experts monitor alarm, I would initially call no one. Since the cooktop is only very rarely used (in this climate, we typically use a grill at least 25 feet from the house for cooking) and the furnace only runs three or four months per year, initial source isolation is very straightforward. Unless there's a regional elevated CO event, I'd shut down the cooktop, then the furnace. If my monitor doesn't stop alarming after allowing a bit of time for things to clear, that leaves the water heater. So, there's the answer: call someone qualified to troubleshoot the cooktop, furnace or water heater, depending on results of that troubleshooting flow chart.

Bob Harper said:

...Look, if you don't like NCI's policy on their products, go buy someone else's...

I did, and will continue to every five years.

WMno57

This is why I DIY.

captainco

Sal- You just explained the exact reason we don't sell to homeowners.

Sal Santamaura

captainco said:

Sal- You just explained the exact reason we don't sell to homeowners.

I understand what you're implying, namely, that it requires the kind of understanding my comment displayed to make effective use of a low-level CO monitor. However, if the NSI 6000 is not available to those who possess such knowledge, and it is for any reason superior to the competition, that policy deprives the market of the best choice. Rather than restrict sales to contractors, why not develop concise, clear educational materials that the public can learn from, disseminate them widely via multiple media, then offer your product only to those who can demonstrate understanding, perhaps via an on-line quiz which is prerequisite to accepting an order? In my opinion, such a program would have more chance of getting through than any "lecture" a contractor might provide when installing a monitor.

Bob Harper

Sal, have you ever taken the NCI Carbon Monoxide and Combustion Analysis full course? Just asking for a friend...

Sal Santamaura

Bob Harper said:

Sal, have you ever taken the NCI Carbon Monoxide and Combustion Analysis full course? Just asking for a friend...

Irrelevant, sarcastic attempt at deflection from my question/suggestion to Jim.

Let's get right to the bottom line. Low-level CO monitors other than the one(s) sold by NCI have been, are and in all probability will continue to be available to consumers. Those who purchase them are people who've figured out the shortcomings of UL-listed "CO Alarms." No matter what inconvenience might befall someone whose low-level monitor prompts them to call an agency that responds inappropriately, they're better off than someone else relying solely on UL-listed devices who suffers CO poisoning. Jim's entirely within his rights to limit his market. Richard, the original poster of this thread, is also within his rights to seek what he feels is a good alternative to NCI's monitor. Ignoring market reality and disparaging the competition's approach helps no one.

captainco

Sal, would you like someone to come to your house for a CO problem that knows less than you?

neilc

Are we talking about CO Monitors? or Combustion Analyzers here?

I'm not understanding the issue with a CO monitor, ie: personal monitor, being available to public or tech,
vs yeah, someone with an analyzer better know how to use it.

Jamie Hall

Folks, as I and several others have mentioned, high quality, reeliable low level CO monitors are, fortunately, available on the open market. If a company chooses to sell only to the anointed elite, so be it -- that's their choice. It's also our choice to ignore them and purchase what we need elsewhere.

As to who do you call if your low level CO alarm goes off, I think most people would know enough to at least call their fuel supplier (gas or oil) or just call the local fire department. That isn't rocket science. They certainly aren't going to call a distant limited supplier of the alarm, even if there was some hope that said supplier could or would be able to respond effectively.

As an aside from a past life, I often had to specify, and the approve, the purchase of similar equipment (including CO or other gas alarms) for various projects. I never would, and never did, approve a sole source supplier (such as, in this instance, NCI appears to be).

Sal Santamaura

captainco said:

Sal, would you like someone to come to your house for a CO problem that knows less than you?

Of course not. Does it not make sense that someone who knows enough to have purchased and installed a low-level CO monitor would know enough to vet tradespeople before selecting one to deal with a CO problem?

Jamie Hall said:

...As to who do you call if your low level CO alarm goes off, I think most people would know enough to at least call their fuel supplier (gas or oil) or just call the local fire department. That isn't rocket science. They certainly aren't going to call a distant limited supplier of the alarm, even if there was some hope that said supplier could or would be able to respond effectively...

It's very nice to be in violent agreement with Jamie this time.