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Better Quality Low Level Carbon Monoxide Monitor/Detectors

Derheatmeister
Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,515
edited February 2021 in THE MAIN WALL
Up to now we offered the NSI 3000 Carbon Monoxide Monitors which are sold by NCI only to be installed by certified Carbon Monoxide Specialists.
We are looking for a different manufacturer.
I am not interested in cheap off the shelf/home center type Carbon Monoxide Detectors that plug into an outlet and will only alert after you have been subjected to 400 ppm for 15 minutes...That is too late for my level and we will not sell such devices.
I hear great things about the Defender and Co Experts.
Does anybody know of a decent low level Carbon Monoxide Detector that would help keep our customers safe in the event of a spillage.
Thank you for your help.
Richard.
«1

Comments

  • Canucker
    Canucker Member Posts: 722
    I'm interested in hearing an answer to this. Availability in Canada would be nice as well.
    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,515
    edited February 2021
    We reached out to different Manufactures and are going to try the Defender LL6170.

    1. We like the features it has to offer, it is probably better that the NSI 3000.
    2. We like the cost.
    3. Another thing we like is, if there was ever a warranty claim, shipping it back to them would be Prepaid.
    4. The customer service tech was very knowable and friendly.

    Stay Tuned...Six of them will arrive at our office soon and be put to test in the next weeks to come.
    Canucker
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,428
    @Derheatmeister how did this turn out?
  • captainco
    captainco Member Posts: 792
    The NSI 3000 is now the NSI 6000. Not available on Amazon.
    Has 30 day data logging. And yes, we don't like to sell to
    unqualified contractors. Alarms and Monitors don't prevent CO
    problems, they just let us know there is a problem!!
    Richard do you think that contractors that we don't train
    know the truth?
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,428
    @captainco what about for continuous monitoring of one's residence? Feel free to link to previous posts. I couldn't find any great posts when I was looking last night but the way this site gets searched even through google is weird.
  • captainco
    captainco Member Posts: 792
    Continuous monitors are high level CO only.
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,230
  • captainco
    captainco Member Posts: 792
    consumers should buy their own detectors??
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 526
    captainco said:

    consumers should buy their own detectors??

    Why not? I'm an informed consumer who's purchased and installed a series of CO Experts monitors in my home for many, many years. Around a decade and a half, if memory serves. In addition to always meeting code by having UL-listed CO detectors on each floor. Why would you not want to sell me an NSI 6000 if it's superior?
    WMno57ChrisJWaher
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,428
    captainco said:

    Continuous monitors are high level CO only.

    do you man products like defender or co experts don't exist or that for some reason we shouldn't be aware if something has broken on my direct vent appliances or range hood and co has collected inside?
  • dko
    dko Member Posts: 560
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,457
    dko said:
    Yeah.......
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,428
    dko said:
    I understand all of that. None of that makes @captainco 's comment about "Continuous monitors are high level CO only." make sense. It appears that numerous manufacturers make low level monitors for continuous monitoring on someone's home.
    ethicalpaulWaher
  • dko
    dko Member Posts: 560
    edited February 15
    Only makes sense if he was thinking about a unit that alarms only after a certain PPM level has been reached and maintained for a extended period of time "continuously monitoring a high level situation before alarming." The NSI 6000 is also a continuous monitor but alarms and beeps in minutes and continuously whenever a specific PPM has been detected. But he would already know that so the comment on it's own definitely makes no sense.

    But i'm not him and not going to put words in his mouth


  • captainco
    captainco Member Posts: 792
    If a consumer buys a CO alarm or monitor online or at a store, who do they call when it goes off?


  • captainco
    captainco Member Posts: 792
    Obviously you need an ambulance if you need medical attention. That is why UL2034 was written so fire departments wouldn't have to make
    nuisance calls. Gas companies are just going to turn off your gas or tell you your alarm is bad. But who is going to determine the problem and fix it. Don't see any body here.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,457
    captainco said:

    Obviously you need an ambulance if you need medical attention. That is why UL2034 was written so fire departments wouldn't have to make
    nuisance calls. Gas companies are just going to turn off your gas or tell you your alarm is bad. But who is going to determine the problem and fix it. Don't see any body here.

    Since we're not allowed to buy the device we won't know there's a problem in the first place.

    Problem solved I guess.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    mattmia2WaherCLamb
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,607
    captainco said:

    Obviously you need an ambulance if you need medical attention. That is why UL2034 was written so fire departments wouldn't have to make
    nuisance calls. Gas companies are just going to turn off your gas or tell you your alarm is bad. But who is going to determine the problem and fix it. Don't see any body here.

    I assume a competent HVAC professional who would do a combustion test and system inspection...if you can find one!
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    mattmia2WaherCLamb
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,428
    By that logic i should only be able to buy a microwave through a cooking school because I might not know how to cook.
    ethicalpaulWMno57
  • captainco
    captainco Member Posts: 792
    what does cooking have to do with someone playing with a deadly device in my building? However, even microwave ovens have more correct directions than combustion analyzers.
  • captainco
    captainco Member Posts: 792
    Years ago, when I worked with an HVAC distributor, I refused to sell combustion analyzers to people because they were too ignorant. That commitment has not changed to this day.
  • captainco
    captainco Member Posts: 792
    Check your knowledge - Cracked heat exchangers have never been the actual cause of a CO poisoning. Over sized flues have never caused a CO poisoning. Lack of combustion air has never caused a CO poisoning, Combustion analyzer out of calibration have never caused a CO poisoning.
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,607
    captainco said:
    Years ago, when I worked with an HVAC distributor, I refused to sell combustion analyzers to people because they were too ignorant. That commitment has not changed to this day.
    Weren’t we talking about CO monitors?
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    CLamb
  • captainco
    captainco Member Posts: 792
    Just trying to explain why NCI doesn't sell their low level CO monitor to everyone.
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,607
    And why don't they again? Their web site was double-speak.
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    CLamb
  • captainco
    captainco Member Posts: 792
    We are the only occupation with the potential ability to investigate, diagnose and correct CO problems, How many contractors would like to be called on every CO incident in their location to determine the cause and make the necessary corrections to prevent them in the future, knowing the immense liability it carries?
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,607
    So they are doing it to protect those other contractors? That is nice of them!
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    CLamb
  • captainco
    captainco Member Posts: 792
    If you haven't read the posts in the Carbon Monoxide Discussion it might be beneficial to go back and read them!!
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,457
    captainco said:

    We are the only occupation with the potential ability to investigate, diagnose and correct CO problems, How many contractors would like to be called on every CO incident in their location to determine the cause and make the necessary corrections to prevent them in the future, knowing the immense liability it carries?


    So, if I hire a contractor that's an NSI distributor, I can be 100% confident they know what they're doing and will not put me or my family at risk?

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    mattmia2
  • Bob Harper
    Bob Harper Member Posts: 1,030
    I'm puzzled by some of the smart remarks here. Look, if you don't like NCI's policy on their products, go buy someone else's. Jim is the leading expert in the US(world?) on CO. He follows all the major reporting. He talks with contractors at trade shows. Most techs don't know where to put the monitors, what to coach the occupants on, and that the mechanisms are for CO exposure, much less how to run combustion analysis and make use/ sense of the readings. Nobody can guarantee 100% safety on anything. That's absurd. We can make things safe-er. We can make combustion equipment suitable for continued use within a structure when used according to the mfrs. instructions.
    Maybe NCI is worried about contractors making uneducated decisions and giving poor advice to owners about such monitors, how many they need, where to put them, etc.
    GGrosspecmsg
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 526

    captainco said:

    consumers should buy their own detectors??

    Why not? I'm an informed consumer who's purchased and installed a series of CO Experts monitors in my home for many, many years. Around a decade and a half, if memory serves. In addition to always meeting code by having UL-listed CO detectors on each floor. Why would you not want to sell me an NSI 6000 if it's superior?
    dko said:
    That's an explanation of why education is needed, not valid reasoning to justify keeping low-level CO monitors out of the hands of informed consumers.
    captainco said:

    If a consumer buys a CO alarm or monitor online or at a store, who do they call when it goes off?

    I am fully cognizant of the dangers of CO, as well its sources in my Southern California home. There is a natural gas-fired furnace in the well-ventilated attic, a natural gas-fired cooktop in the kitchen and a natural gas-fired water heater on a platform in the attached garage. Should my CO Experts monitor alarm, I would initially call no one. Since the cooktop is only very rarely used (in this climate, we typically use a grill at least 25 feet from the house for cooking) and the furnace only runs three or four months per year, initial source isolation is very straightforward. Unless there's a regional elevated CO event, I'd shut down the cooktop, then the furnace. If my monitor doesn't stop alarming after allowing a bit of time for things to clear, that leaves the water heater. So, there's the answer: call someone qualified to troubleshoot the cooktop, furnace or water heater, depending on results of that troubleshooting flow chart.

    ...Look, if you don't like NCI's policy on their products, go buy someone else's...

    I did, and will continue to every five years.

    ethicalpaulWMno57CLamb
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,230
    This is why I DIY.
    I DIY.
    ethicalpaulBob Harper
  • captainco
    captainco Member Posts: 792
    Sal- You just explained the exact reason we don't sell to homeowners.
    Bob Harper
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 526
    captainco said:

    Sal- You just explained the exact reason we don't sell to homeowners.

    I understand what you're implying, namely, that it requires the kind of understanding my comment displayed to make effective use of a low-level CO monitor. However, if the NSI 6000 is not available to those who possess such knowledge, and it is for any reason superior to the competition, that policy deprives the market of the best choice. Rather than restrict sales to contractors, why not develop concise, clear educational materials that the public can learn from, disseminate them widely via multiple media, then offer your product only to those who can demonstrate understanding, perhaps via an on-line quiz which is prerequisite to accepting an order? In my opinion, such a program would have more chance of getting through than any "lecture" a contractor might provide when installing a monitor.
  • Bob Harper
    Bob Harper Member Posts: 1,030
    Sal, have you ever taken the NCI Carbon Monoxide and Combustion Analysis full course? Just asking for a friend...
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 526

    Sal, have you ever taken the NCI Carbon Monoxide and Combustion Analysis full course? Just asking for a friend...

    Irrelevant, sarcastic attempt at deflection from my question/suggestion to Jim.

    Let's get right to the bottom line. Low-level CO monitors other than the one(s) sold by NCI have been, are and in all probability will continue to be available to consumers. Those who purchase them are people who've figured out the shortcomings of UL-listed "CO Alarms." No matter what inconvenience might befall someone whose low-level monitor prompts them to call an agency that responds inappropriately, they're better off than someone else relying solely on UL-listed devices who suffers CO poisoning. Jim's entirely within his rights to limit his market. Richard, the original poster of this thread, is also within his rights to seek what he feels is a good alternative to NCI's monitor. Ignoring market reality and disparaging the competition's approach helps no one.
    LRCCBJ
  • captainco
    captainco Member Posts: 792
    Sal, would you like someone to come to your house for a CO problem that knows less than you?
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,667
    Are we talking about CO Monitors? or Combustion Analyzers here?

    I'm not understanding the issue with a CO monitor, ie: personal monitor, being available to public or tech,
    vs yeah, someone with an analyzer better know how to use it.
    known to beat dead horses
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 526
    captainco said:

    Sal, would you like someone to come to your house for a CO problem that knows less than you?

    Of course not. Does it not make sense that someone who knows enough to have purchased and installed a low-level CO monitor would know enough to vet tradespeople before selecting one to deal with a CO problem?

    ...As to who do you call if your low level CO alarm goes off, I think most people would know enough to at least call their fuel supplier (gas or oil) or just call the local fire department. That isn't rocket science. They certainly aren't going to call a distant limited supplier of the alarm, even if there was some hope that said supplier could or would be able to respond effectively...

    It's very nice to be in violent agreement with Jamie this time. :)
    LRCCBJKC_Jones