Need Help Evaluating Quote
House is 3 floors, 1500 sq-ft per floor (stacked), very well spray foamed in zone 6.
I am nervous about going with a heat pump. I am also nervous about ducts (noise and pollutants). But, I lean towards ducts rather than looking at minisplit units.
I'd sure appreciate expert eyes on this.
Thank you!
Redacted pricing -- sorry for the violation.
Comments
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We don't discuss pricing here. Please redact the actual numbers & reupload the image.
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Fan Tech is a good product
Cant say I've heard a lot of good things with LG Equipment.
9-Tons of equipment? Get an independent Manual "j" performed
Mitsubishi
Fujitsu
Daikin
Whats the back up source of heat, Electric, Oil, NG, LP?
Once again the Name of the installing contractor is more important then the name on the box's!0 -
Heat pumps are fine -- so long as you have a backup heat source as well. And, ideally, one which you can run with a generator, independently -- which means oil or LP. At least in in my humble opinion (and that of a lot of Texans, after the last few days...)Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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Yea, 96kbtu seemed like a lot to me also from the little I know.pecmsg said:Fan Tech is a good product
Cant say I've heard a lot of good things with LG Equipment.
9-Tons of equipment? Get an independent Manual "j" performed
Mitsubishi
Fujitsu
Daikin
Whats the back up source of heat, Electric, Oil, NG, LP?
Once again the Name of the installing contractor is more important then the name on the box's!
I thought (I guess I'm just repeating what I'm told) that LG was top notch.
For back up, contractor is proposing (as an option), electric heat strips. But, what I don't know is whether backup heat is necessary just to eliminate the damage in the tiny chance that the equipment breaks, or whether the likelihood of breaking (and a substantial wait time for parts) is higher with a complex system like this?
My other thinking is a propane boiler for a radiant hydronic heat combined with the water coil in air handlers for the 2nd and 3rd floors.0 -
Lots of conflicting information and stories out there for the uninformed about whether heat pumps really are okay in zone 6.Jamie Hall said:Heat pumps are fine -- so long as you have a backup heat source as well. And, ideally, one which you can run with a generator, independently -- which means oil or LP. At least in in my humble opinion (and that of a lot of Texans, after the last few days...)
Interestingly, you bring up the question of backup heat also. Are you thinking supplemental heat or backup for when equipment fails or when electric goes out?
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The backup heat -- or the auxiliary electric heat strips -- is there for when the heat pump can't supply enough heat for the structure. Which may or may not be a real issue in zone 6, depending on the specific heat pump. The backup heat -- but not the heat strips -- are also there for when the heat pump dies and you want to stay warm. If the backup heat is grid-independent -- that is, LP or oil and you have a generator -- it's also handy when the grid goes down.Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
Is this a house you're building, or one that's already built? If the latter, what's there now?All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
Heat Pumps have a place in all "Zones". Its just a balance between cost of operation with electric and alternate fuel Oil, NG, LP0
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Thanks. Trying to keep my terminology straight so I was wondering if there is a distinction between backup heat and aux heat, but I suppose it's nuanced: Backup heat can be for then power goes out or equipment fails or it can be for when equipment just can't product as much heat as is necessary.Jamie Hall said:The backup heat -- or the auxiliary electric heat strips -- is there for when the heat pump can't supply enough heat for the structure. Which may or may not be a real issue in zone 6, depending on the specific heat pump. The backup heat -- but not the heat strips -- are also there for when the heat pump dies and you want to stay warm. If the backup heat is grid-independent -- that is, LP or oil and you have a generator -- it's also handy when the grid goes down.
The LG unit's literature (and sales) says it's good to -13 F. Who knows what "good" means?
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As the outside temperature drops so does the Heat Output. Add to that the more frequent defrosts cycles that are actually Cooling Cycles and they can get a bit uncomfortable. Thats when some form of Aux Heat is required. Electric strip elements are the cheapest to install but the most expensive to operate.0
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For what it's worth- several years ago we had to replace a steam boiler over the Christmas-New Year holiday and the daytime high was 15° or so. The house had mini-split heat-pump units that were supposed to be good down to zero, but they were only able to keep the house to 55° during that period. We set up some space heaters in the basement while we were working.
These units kept the house from freezing, but that was about it.All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
Why not install hydronics? No forced-air system will ever equal the comfort of a good radiant or radiator system. Plus, you really don't want fans blowing COVID and other germs around, do you?josephny said:
Gut reno. Almost done with framing. So, nothing is there now as far as HVAC.Steamhead said:Is this a house you're building, or one that's already built? If the latter, what's there now?
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting
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That's very interesting. It wasn't that long ago that heat pumps were simply inappropriate for the colder climates, right? My concern is that a heat pump (this LG unit, for example) will be able to work when it gets down to -10 F (and windy).pecmsg said:Heat Pumps have a place in all "Zones". Its just a balance between cost of operation with electric and alternate fuel Oil, NG, LP
And then there's the cost of operation -- I pay $0.105/KWH now and that will be increasing by several percent a year, likely for a a few years. I pay $1.79/gallon for propane. If my newly developed knowledge and skills are correct, that means that I pay $0.0309/KBTU for electric and $0.0195/KBTU for propane. Which means the only way electric heat is even on par as far as operating cost with propane is with an average COP of 1.6. Given the high level of insulation for the house, the return period (years) on excess cost to go with heat pumps would be substantial. Combined with the much more complex environment (i.e., things to go wrong and break) and the quality of radiant hydronic heat, I am all the more confused.
See how dangerous a little info can be (;-)
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I've seen mention of the defrost cycles and how it creates such a nicely chilled inside air.pecmsg said:As the outside temperature drops so does the Heat Output. Add to that the more frequent defrosts cycles that are actually Cooling Cycles and they can get a bit uncomfortable. Thats when some form of Aux Heat is required. Electric strip elements are the cheapest to install but the most expensive to operate.
I've also seen mention of the efficiency degrading as the temp drops, which negates the major benefit of heat pumps, right?
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Add into that calculation the straight electric that will be needed during defrost. I switch over my jobs around 20 - 25°F to the oil or gas furnace.0
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Ugh! To spend $xxxxx and then be cold would really suck.Steamhead said:For what it's worth- several years ago we had to replace a steam boiler over the Christmas-New Year holiday and the daytime high was 15° or so. The house had mini-split heat-pump units that were supposed to be good down to zero, but they were only able to keep the house to 55° during that period. We set up some space heaters in the basement while we were working.
These units kept the house from freezing, but that was about it.
The contractor swears up and down that these LGs won't disappoint.
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and I have a Bridge you'll love!josephny said:
Ugh! To spend $xxxxx and then be cold would really suck.Steamhead said:For what it's worth- several years ago we had to replace a steam boiler over the Christmas-New Year holiday and the daytime high was 15° or so. The house had mini-split heat-pump units that were supposed to be good down to zero, but they were only able to keep the house to 55° during that period. We set up some space heaters in the basement while we were working.
These units kept the house from freezing, but that was about it.
The contractor swears up and down that these LGs won't disappoint.
This the same contractor that specked 9-Tons
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I am very very much leaning in that direction!Steamhead said:
Why not install hydronics? No forced-air system will ever equal the comfort of a good radiant or radiator system. Plus, you really don't want fans blowing COVID and other germs around, do you?josephny said:
Gut reno. Almost done with framing. So, nothing is there now as far as HVAC.Steamhead said:Is this a house you're building, or one that's already built? If the latter, what's there now?
Another contractor is putting together a quote for a propane boiler with radiant under the first floor and (I think) under the second floor, but he says that the effectiveness of radiant heat is tremendously degraded if there is anything other than hardwood floor (no carpeting). He is also putting air handlers with a hot water coil (same boiler) for the 3rd and (I thnk) 2nd floors. And I can't remember what he said about AC but it was a term I hadn't heard. Something like super-duper AC.
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You need to start at the beginning.
A Proper Manual "J" Load Loss calculation. From there you can compare apples to apples. Right now your wasting the contractors time, there all going to say different sizes and cost of operation.
Tacos Calc is good for the heating.0 -
Now along with that is What are you doing for bringing in Outside air into this sealed home? You should have a complete air change every 3 - 4 hours to exhaust indoor pollutants and supply fresh air.0
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I did a Man J and I believe the heating load is approx 60kbtu and the cooling about 25kbtu.
And the contractor says he did a Man J and the 96KBTU he proposes "isn’t a crazy amount oversized but it definitely is over about 18K BTU. The issue is you still need a certain amount of cfm to deliver the air throughout the entire floors. The 36k BTU units also modulate down to roughly 18,200 BTU and the 24k unit modulates down to around 8,000 btu’s"
We have an ERV (Fantech 200D, but I'm looking at the 260 also) -- think that would be enough?
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As far as the 200 vs the 260, he writes:
"Think the SER 260 is a bit of overkill after looking at it, there is roughly 4000 ft/sq when you take the third floor knee walls into consideration. Remember the more fresh air we bring in is the more air we have to condition. We will pull exhaust from all the bathrooms for the ERV. Normally we would duct the supply right into the return of the air handler but it would be tough to get it to the second floor units return so I will put it high wall across from the return grill. I can do the same with the first and third floors"
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Huge difference in calculations. Can you post your Manual "J"?
I'll believe the 60K & 25K. Your contractors 96K (Hes actually installing 108K BTU/h) for cooling is 50% higher huge red flag even with inverter units.0 -
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First glance shows part of the problem. Your cooling load is less than half of your heating load. So a heat pump that can handle the heating load will be wayyyyy oversized for cooling, and definitely won't control indoor humidity well during the summer.
Where in NY are you located? We probably know someone who can help..................All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
Hydronic radiant for primary heat.Youngplumber said:I would get a hot air furnace as back up heat and use the ductwork for the ac. Back up generator to run the fan for the furnace and pumps for the hydronic system if the power goes out. Use hydronic heat as my primary system for comfort and efficiency. If I had the money and blank slate.
Hot air for backup heat.
Ducts for both hot air and AC.
Sorry if this is stupid of me, but what is cooling the air for the AC?
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Is that report just 1 floor and theres 2 stories?
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I'm in Sullivan Count. I chose Rochester on the man j because there wasn't a location in Sullivan available.Steamhead said:First glance shows part of the problem. Your cooling load is less than half of your heating load. So a heat pump that can handle the heating load will be wayyyyy oversized for cooling, and definitely won't control indoor humidity well during the summer.
Where in NY are you located? We probably know someone who can help..................
Can you explain a little about how a heat pump oversize for cooling won't control humidity well?
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It doesn't get enough run time. If its not running its not taking moisture out of the air.0
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Inverter units are fine but have other issues with oversizing,josephny said:
Got it -- makes sense.pecmsg said:It doesn't get enough run time. If its not running its not taking moisture out of the air.
What about the modulating aspect? Does that address the short runtime?
Oversizing is never good.0 -
Based on that report if it was my choice
Thermo Pride Oil http://www.thermopride.com/wp-content/uploads/PS020019-051519.pdf (LP is available http://www.thermopride.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PS0400032.pdf )Get there 2-Ton coil and the BOSCH 3-Ton Inverter Driven heat pump.
The Installing Contractor is the biggest choice you have to make.0 -
that changes everything
BOSCH 3-Ton Inverter Driven with HW coils for the 1st and 2nd floors. The attic unit for the 3rd I wouldn't chance freezing a coil so Straight electric back up.
Is the basement included in that figure?0 -
Basement is not included in the 4500 sq-ft total.
Basement has insulated walls and concrete slab with no insulation under it.
I don't understand about the Bosch recommendation. It is the same technology as the LG, right?0 -
Better..... they use Mitsubishi tech and compressors. Mitsubishi developed Inverter technology and is considered the leader in the field!josephny said:Basement is not included in the 4500 sq-ft total.
Basement has insulated walls and concrete slab with no insulation under it.
I don't understand about the Bosch recommendation. It is the same technology as the LG, right?
BOSCH only has 2 units 1-3 tons and 3-5 tons. Once set up The suction pressure and temperature determine how fast the compressor has to operate.
For your basement you can use the LG and a separate dehumidifier. Basements require heating while the upstairs require cooling.0
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