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To everyone who helped me, i figured it out!!! BANGING AND VAPORSTAT PROBLEMS!

tumbztumbz Member Posts: 94
edited January 12 in Strictly Steam
Thank you all who helped me. You guys are the best. I LOVE THIS FORUM and im learning.

My situation is confusing so ill make it simple and to the point.

I had 2 problems in my home with the 1 pipe steam system.

1) my 2nd floor radiators would not heat because the thermostat is situated on the 1st floor and the radiators on the first floor would satisfy the thermostat before it got a chance to heat the 2nd floor.

2) I had banging near the boiler on startup.

( i installed a vaporstat to try to lower the steam pressure, hoping that it would help with the banging and the vaporstat would shut off the boiler at 8 ounce cut in and 14 ounce cut out before the radiators even got hot. I realized thats because ALL MY 1st floor radiators were venting so SLOW thus causing pressure back at the boiler and shutting down the vaporstat before it got a chance to heat up! )

I went to the first floor and fully opened all the radiators and the vaporstat now works well. it produces pressure at ZERO and only reaches about 6-8 ounces of pressure when most of the first floor rads are already hot and air vents closed and cut outs when the thermostat temp was reached.


===========================

THE BANGING ALSO WENT AWAY! IT WASNT SAGGED PIPES! It WAS THE PRESSURE due to the slow venting on my first floor that caused my banging! I guess the pressure had no where to go or it was too forceful since many of the rads were slowly vented and some were completely shut off.


==========================

I fixed the 1st problem by using vent rites and slowing the venting on all the 1st floor radiators so the 2nd floor got a chance to get hot before the thermostat was satisfied. this worked and my 2nd floor rads were working well.

but now that i am using the vaporstat and i fully opened all the vents, my upstairs radiators are again not getting fully hot before the thermostat was satisfied.!!!

LOL. Back to problem 1....

Comments

  • KC_JonesKC_Jones Member Posts: 4,562
    I want to be clear on a couple points. Water hammer that you are experiencing is from water laying where it's not supposed to be and the steam picking up droplets and throwing them into the first solid object they encounter, such as an elbow. While pressure can possibly exaggerate the problem, it's never the cause.

    The boiler most likely will need to run longer to heat the second floor. Which could mean, you will fix problem 1 and bring problem 2 back, that said, lets revisit venting.

    To get heat to the second floor requires balance. You need steam, at the inlet valve of all rads, at roughly the same time. First step is vent the mains fast, this is fairly critical so that the rad vents will only be doing work for that rad and runout. After that you can then tune the rad vents based on size and geography. Typically more venting the longer the runout, that is unless it's an oversized radiator, in which case size comes into play so you slow it down some. I think you said you had adjustable vents, so turn the first floor down as low as possible, then turn the second floor up as high as possible. Let that go for a day or two then evaluate where you need more or less heat, then adjust the vents up or down as needed.

    Remember, pressure is bad in a steam system as it burns fuel and doesn't heat the house as effectively. IMHO this isn't really a function of a vaporstat as much as it is in a properly set up system. Many of us on here with properly sized boilers build almost no pressure. I have to use my king valves once per year just to verify function of my pressure safeties. So yes a vaporstat or pressutrol can control pressure, the fact that you are hitting that pressure is still costing some fuel as it's quite unnecessary, with a properly set up system.

    I think someone advised you to measure all the rads and do an EDR calculation to see if your boiler is oversized, have you done that yet? That can influence, or dictate what you might be able to accomplish with respect to pressure, possibly pushing you back to the pressuretrol.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10202744301871904.1073741828.1330391881&type=1&l=c34ad6ee78
    ethicalpaul
  • tumbztumbz Member Posts: 94
    KC_Jones said:

    I want to be clear on a couple points. Water hammer that you are experiencing is from water laying where it's not supposed to be and the steam picking up droplets and throwing them into the first solid object they encounter, such as an elbow. While pressure can possibly exaggerate the problem, it's never the cause.

    The boiler most likely will need to run longer to heat the second floor. Which could mean, you will fix problem 1 and bring problem 2 back, that said, lets revisit venting.

    To get heat to the second floor requires balance. You need steam, at the inlet valve of all rads, at roughly the same time. First step is vent the mains fast, this is fairly critical so that the rad vents will only be doing work for that rad and runout. After that you can then tune the rad vents based on size and geography. Typically more venting the longer the runout, that is unless it's an oversized radiator, in which case size comes into play so you slow it down some. I think you said you had adjustable vents, so turn the first floor down as low as possible, then turn the second floor up as high as possible. Let that go for a day or two then evaluate where you need more or less heat, then adjust the vents up or down as needed.

    Remember, pressure is bad in a steam system as it burns fuel and doesn't heat the house as effectively. IMHO this isn't really a function of a vaporstat as much as it is in a properly set up system. Many of us on here with properly sized boilers build almost no pressure. I have to use my king valves once per year just to verify function of my pressure safeties. So yes a vaporstat or pressutrol can control pressure, the fact that you are hitting that pressure is still costing some fuel as it's quite unnecessary, with a properly set up system.

    I think someone advised you to measure all the rads and do an EDR calculation to see if your boiler is oversized, have you done that yet? That can influence, or dictate what you might be able to accomplish with respect to pressure, possibly pushing you back to the pressuretrol.

    Hi KC. thanks for replying. Actually, i get no pressure with the vaporstat! When i use my pressuretrol, the pressure always stays about 1 to 1.5 tops...

    I noticed using this vaporstat and with a cut out of 14 ounces, the pressure stays at 0 until all the first floor rads are hot, then the pressure builds to about maybe 6-8 ounces? about half of a pound, since i have a 1-5 psi gauage. i bought a 1-3 gauge now to use with this vaporstat....

    i am going to try to slowly close the 1st floor rads where i dont need that much heat so that my 2nd floor can get hot, while leaving the air vents fully opened up there. i hope this works and the banging doesnt come back.
  • KC_JonesKC_Jones Member Posts: 4,562
    To be clear, when you say shutting down rads, you mean the vents correct? The inlet valve should always be full open.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10202744301871904.1073741828.1330391881&type=1&l=c34ad6ee78
  • tumbztumbz Member Posts: 94
    KC_Jones said:
    To be clear, when you say shutting down rads, you mean the vents correct? The inlet valve should always be full open.
    I mean the air vents.   All of my rads shutoff vavles are fully open.  I used the air vents to control the steam.  I have vent rites #1 s on all rads....

    I hope this banging is gone for good.   Usually at night its worse, so tonight will be the first night im running on vaporstat.  Lets see how it works....
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 14,945
    I do hope it really works! Steam is a little weird at times -- just about when we think we've got the answers, it comes up with something new and different!
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.
    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • jumperjumper Member Posts: 1,572

    I do hope it really works! Steam is a little weird at times -- just about when we think we've got the answers, it comes up with something new and different!

    For me the happiest are incorrect steam setups that work excellently.

  • tumbztumbz Member Posts: 94
    edited January 13
     Guys, i want to thank you so much for all the knowledge....

    My vaporstat just cycled again.  Its been about 10-15 mins.  All rads are super hot and the pressure at its max was only 2 ounces......

    Heres a pic.....    

    I am running like a crazy person up and down and up and down adjusting all the vent rites.....    i am trying to balance and slow the air vents on the 1st floor so the 2nf floor will heat up, but not so slow that it will create banging..

    After opening up fully all the air vents , the banging and super loud hammering that wakes my family up every night , multiple times a night,  is finally gone after all these years.........  Not even a little bang now.  All gone!!!!!  SILENT!   I even heard surging and gurgling of water before.  NOW, its silent!  all i hear is a little steam air... no more water sounds!

    I just have to balance now....

    Thank you guys!
  • YoungplumberYoungplumber Member Posts: 281
    Nice job @tumbz. I knew you could do it. The more info you presented and @ethicalpaul brought to light the more I realized you had a better handle on your sytem that I or even you thought. 
    tumbzmellowmaximo
  • tumbztumbz Member Posts: 94
    Nice job @tumbz. I knew you could do it. The more info you presented and @ethicalpaul brought to light the more I realized you had a better handle on your sytem that I or even you thought. 
    Thank you dude
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 2,617
    Lots of people added good ideas and info. I’m glad you have things stabilized a bit!
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
    tumbz
  • tumbztumbz Member Posts: 94

    Lots of people added good ideas and info. I’m glad you have things stabilized a bit!

    thank you for your help paul!
    ethicalpaul
  • YoungplumberYoungplumber Member Posts: 281
    KC_Jones said:
    I want to be clear on a couple points. Water hammer that you are experiencing is from water laying where it's not supposed to be and the steam picking up droplets and throwing them into the first solid object they encounter, such as an elbow. While pressure can possibly exaggerate the problem, it's never the cause. 
    Never? If you have too much pressure shooting water into places  it's not supposed to be for very long and it's hard enough to hold up the draining process, than I would call the pressure the problem. 

    If a system is designed to run at 8 to 14oz and you run it at 2lbs. There will be water where it shouldn't be. Just like if a system is designed to run at 1.5 to 2lbs and you run it at 3 to 5lbs. 

    Maybe it wasn't "designed" that way maybe it ended up that way. Who knows, maybe we'll hear from this poster again and there will be problems. But I wouldn't say pressure never causes water to be where it shouldn't. 
    kenlmad
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