Argo relay burned

CortlandtPT

Just wanted to ask the experts if they know a reason why my newly professionally installed argo relay (6zone) burned. 

It was installed on 12/3/20, it replaced 4 separate relays which was 25-30 years old. 

We had a blackout yesterday that lasted 4 hours, and when it came back on we had another 2 outages that lasted 3-5 minutes each. 

No power surges that I noticed. Our TV was on the whole day since it was xmas. I can’t think of anything else that might have caused the fire. We have one nest thermostat that controls one zone, 2 honeywell programmable thermostat and 2 manual thermostats for the basement. All are working fine.

Would faulty wiring be the cause or a faulty argo panel? Would the blackout affected it to make a fire? 

The relay replacement should be covered by the HVAC installer’s warranty right? 

Any advise would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks in advance.

CortlandtPT

Hi, I need help with my situation. About an hour ago our fire alarm went off on the boiler room so I wnet down to see smoke coming out the boiler room so I turned off the power, checked the door if it was safe to open I deemed it was so I opened it and I found the newly installed Argo panel burning (installed 12/3/20). There was fire on the paper manual left by the installer tucked in between the wood and the wall. The wood where it was installed was partly burning and the Argo panel itself was smoldering. There were a lot of smoke. I called the one who HVAC guy who installed it and he said he will come by tomorrow to check it and said he hopes there were stores open tomorrow so he can replace the panel. 

He also asked if I tinkered with it (Which I didn’t) and if we had any power surges or if I heard any “chattering” (I didn’t notice any) but I informed him that due to the storm last night we had a power outage for about 4 hours last night and then the power went out again another 2 times this AM for about a few minutes each time. I didn’t notice any power surges or had any problems with any other electronic device throughout the day.

My question is how safe Argo panels are? What are the chances that he wired it wrong or ws there something wrong with the panel?  Should I worry that this would  happen every time we have a power outage? I am expecting that this would be covered in the warranty. He charged me $900+ when he replaced the old but functional panels 3 weeks ago. 

Thanks in advance guys

kcopp

Sounds like a power surge to me.
Just because it didnt effect the tv does not mean it couldnt burn out the relay. It may have been the other leg of the service.
If it was running fine for 3 weeks a wiring error is probably ruled out... Do you have a picture of the inside of the relay?

Erin Holohan Haskell

@CortlandtPT, I've merged your two posts here.

Zman

@CortlandtPT
That is very unusual.
Can you post a picture of the inside?
Did it trip the breaker in the panel? What type of breaker? Picture of breaker?

mattmia2

Sounds likely to be a broken neutral at the utility or a neighbor that found its path back to the transformer through that panel. A look inside at where it is burned and how the current flowed could give a better guess.

Or possibly an over voltage from a bad neutral that that panel handled poorly and it happened to be on the higher voltage side of the fault while things that survived were on the lower voltage side or had power supplies that were designed for 110-240v

EdTheHeaterMan

I prefer Taco zone controls however, I am familiar with Argo and have not had any problems with them over the years. I don't believe that you want to remove the cover to take a picture. Let the Pro do that to see what he finds inside. He may see a mistake he made or if the power outage was the cause.

It is possible to use an end switch on some models incorrectly. most relay contacts are able to handle both 24-volt and 120-volt loads. if your control has a set of contacts that is designed for low voltage and a circulator pump is connected to them, there may be a problem with the design.

Ask the repair person to let you take a picture of the wiring after he removes the cover and before any wires are removed. Then take a picture after he is finished installing the new control panel.

I/We would like to see what is inside there to find the issue if there is one, other than the power outage issue.

STEVEusaPA

Could be as simple as a loose wire in the zone control panel that came loose and arced.
If it was just installed a few weeks ago, I'd have the installer come out and go over it.

CortlandtPT

Thanks you all for the input. I was waiting for the pictures before I posted again. The guy that installed it said that he has never seen anything like this and that it was caused by the power surges, but I told him that there wasn’t anything else that was affected and there were no trips on my circuit breaker, and none of my neighbors that I spoke to complained about any of their appliances/electronics breaking down. 

He charged me $xxx for the service call/labor, and them would charge me $xxx again for a new Argo panel to be put in. He says that I should file a claim against ConEd (power company) because the power outage caused it.

The main one that was burnt or where it all started was on zone #5 which controlled a room in the basement. That room was set at 60 because no one was using it for the holidays. 

Should I pay him and just file a claim or wait for the claim to be paid before paying him? 

EdTheHeaterMan

Whoa! stop with the prices. we don't post pricing on this site. it is one of the rules. Please edit your post and replace the prices with $XXX.

Power surge unlikely. Loose wiring connection more likely. Go for the power company claim and see what happens. The power company probably won't pay. Let the contractor wait for his money. Keep the contractor informed on the progress of the power company claim.

Ask the contractor if they have a warranty on their workmanship? The part has a warranty on material and workmanship.

mattmia2

I could see a loose connection doing that with a big enough a load, but I don't think it would with a typical ~100w circulator. This wouldn't trip a breaker because the current would fall as a result of the high resistance connection so there would be no overcurrent.

I could also see that arcing over if the primary wiring touched the secondary wiring out in the utility's lines somewhere and caused the tens of kv to appear on one of the line feeds to the house or some lower voltage after it found a lot of other paths to ground.

EdTheHeaterMan

How long ago was the failed control installed? Less than a month right! Why was it replaced? Did one of the zones fail? Was it the zone that was connected to #5? When it fails again in a month or so, will they charge you again?

Ask the contractor, what kind of guarantee do they offer on their workmanship? The part has a warranty on material and workmanship. But it does not include installer error. Also, ask if it happens again what will they charge to find out why the control keeps failing every month?

That was a really selective spike in voltage.

heathead

Ok have you contacted the manufacturer of the part. They have engineers who may have seen it before, or Know if a power surge could have caused this. They may give you credit for a new one. I would save the part don't throw it out. Also contact the power company. If it was me I would make sure you have working smoke detectors in that room. Could this be caused by a locked rotor on one of the pumps or loose wire causing heat then fire.

pecmsg

that price for a service call on a Holiday weekend is cheap. I had to go out Saturday and it cost them twice that and they appreciated we came out.

Within 30 days I would eat the parts and labor and file the claim with Con Ed.

CortlandtPT

I edited and took off the price, sorry about that. 

It was installed 3 weeks before the incident. 

I will try to contact the manufacturer (Argo) and yes I have kept the part. 

I will file the claim with Con Ed and let the contractor know that I will pay him when Con Ed pays. 

pecmsg

CortlandtPT said:

I edited and took off the price, sorry about that. 

It was installed 3 weeks before the incident. 

I will try to contact the manufacturer (Argo) and yes I have kept the part. 

I will file the claim with Con Ed and let the contractor know that I will pay him when Con Ed pays. 

I wouldn't. Pay him and find a more reasonable contractor!

CortlandtPT

Update: I already spoke to the manufacturer and they said that they will cover the part if it is deemed a defect but won’t if it was the installer’s fault. 

Here are some pictures the installer took. 

Zman

It would be easy enough to put the meter on the circ to verify that it was not a locked rotor.

I think that the power surge theory is just scapegoating especially with nothing else affected.

This sure looks like there was a slow arcing issue due to a loose terminal. It is pretty remarkable that the breaker did not trip. Either the arc just drew enough so it did not trip the breaker or the breaker is faulty. What type of breaker is protecting the circuit? Federal Pacific?
I would replace the breaker as well in any event.

As far as the contractor's warranty goes, the burden of proof should be on him. If you had a voltage spike big enough to do that kind of damage, you would have damaged electronics all over the house and would be filing a homeowners insurance claim to replace all of it. That relay is certainly no a delicate electronic device. It is just a bunch of relays on a board. This damage is either a workmanship issue or a manufacturing issue. In either case, the contractor should be replacing it at no charge, or aggravation to you.

mattmia2

What kind/model circulators are connected to those zones?

A bad connection wouldn't trip a breaker, if anything it would decrease the current that the zone is drawing.

MaxMercy

Bad connection, most likely a loose wire under the screw. It's not just the wattage of the load that determines how it reacts, it's also the type of load.

Anything with a motor (like a circulator) presents an inductive load to the supply. Once a bad connection starts, a high voltage arc starts across the gap because of the motor windings providing back emf. It kind of acts like a plasma cutter.

That will happen to any brand of controller with a loose wire.

Zman

mattmia2 said:

What kind/model circulators are connected to those zones?

A bad connection wouldn't trip a breaker, if anything it would decrease the current that the zone is drawing.

Low level arcs like these are why arc fault breakers are required by code in living spaces. A malfunctioning breaker could also be the cause or at least a contributing factor.
https://www.afcisafety.org/afci/what-is-afci/#:~:text=An AFCI is a product,potential to initiate electrical fires.

STEVEusaPA

I don't see a ground.

hot_rod

My bet would be a loose connection, or maybe one of the silk screened traces on back. I'm not sure how you could prove the cause at this point?
I have seen this on other brands also, even the fuse protected type.

pecmsg

STEVEusaPA said:

I don't see a ground.

Although Mechanical Grounds are no longer allowed I don't think that caused the issue.

Agreed bad connection, loose screws(s), excessive load any # of things.

The contractor should have eaten it and had a happy customer!

STEVEusaPA

pecmsg said:

STEVEusaPA said:

I don't see a ground.

Although Mechanical Grounds are no longer allowed I don't think that caused the issue.

Agreed bad connection, loose screws(s), excessive load any # of things.

The contractor should have eaten it and had a happy customer!

I didn't either like I said in my first post, but it may have helped trip the breaker (sooner).

pecmsg

If none of that BX is grounded then it is a install issue!

Jamie Hall

pecmsg said:

If none of that BX is grounded then it is a install issue!

Even if it is, it's dubious -- although if the workmanship is high quality it works.

That said, it might be worthwhile to check and see if some brilliant soul didn't connect the neutral to ground in some sub switchboard, if there are any. And to check that the building neutral really is securely grounded -- but only in one place.

Got to admit that is a pretty crusty looking box -- one big arc would be my guess. They'll do that.

pecmsg

Arc Flash can do amazing things!

CortlandtPT

Thanks a lot guys.

I appreciate all the input.

CortlandtPT

Update:
The contractor refuses to fix it and install another ARGO panel until I pay him, refuses to accept that he made a mistake, and just blames it on CON ED and saying that I should pay him upfront and file a claim against CON ED.

mattmia2

why kind of circulators are connected to that?

CortlandtPT

I don't know the brand of circulators in there, I will check when I get home

mattmia2

more model/motor size is what i am interested in. if they are the old type with conventional induction motors i can easily see a loose connection doing that. if they are like 50 w wet rotor circulators it is a lot less likely.

Zman

If you are going to be paying for the repair, you might consider hiring a good electrician to do the work. They would have more expertise to verify that there are no issues with the circulators and electrical panel.
I am always blown away when contractors create this kind of drama over a fairly inexpensive part and a couple of hours of labor.

pecmsg

CortlandtPT said:

Update:
The contractor refuses to fix it and install another ARGO panel until I pay him, refuses to accept that he made a mistake, and just blames it on CON ED and saying that I should pay him upfront and file a claim against CON ED.

Time to find a different contractor!

CortlandtPT

pecmsg said:

CortlandtPT said:

Update:
The contractor refuses to fix it and install another ARGO panel until I pay him, refuses to accept that he made a mistake, and just blames it on CON ED and saying that I should pay him upfront and file a claim against CON ED.

Time to find a different contractor!

yup plus I'll be suing him and will post complaints on Yelp, BB, Google etc. Don't care about the money that I'll pay the lawyer, people like this guy should not be allowed to run a business.

mattmia2

I think even an engineer on site looking at it now would have difficulty figuring out if it was a loose connection or an extreme overvoltage that arced. The best test would have been to see if the wires were still tight in the terminals before removing anything, Looking at the back of the board and back of the enclosure might tell you something.

MaxMercy

That was a sustained burn. Overvoltage of the amount needed to jump the gap across the terminals and through the block barrier would have trashed everything in the house.

That looks like a low current, high voltage burn, the kind that an inductive arc like a spark gap feeding an inductor would cause (loose wire under the screw).

pecmsg

CortlandtPT said:

pecmsg said:

CortlandtPT said:

Update:
The contractor refuses to fix it and install another ARGO panel until I pay him, refuses to accept that he made a mistake, and just blames it on CON ED and saying that I should pay him upfront and file a claim against CON ED.

Time to find a different contractor!

yup plus I'll be suing him and will post complaints on Yelp, BB, Google etc. Don't care about the money that I'll pay the lawyer, people like this guy should not be allowed to run a business.

Save your money and put it towards repairing the damage!