main steam vent

sz9

main steam vent keeps venting unless i give it a light tap with a screwdriver handle. removed vent and soaked in clr cleaner and blew out with air. no change. does it stop venting from pressure or temp. ? it is installed at the end of the main pipe just before it drops to the wet return . it is not screwed directly into the t fitting. a 1 inch male nipple and a 1 inch female union then the vent. wondering if it should be directly into the t fitting.

JUGHNE

How old is it?
Model and make?
Pictures?

sz9

i would say i replaced it about 3 years ago for the same problem and the new one did the same thing. i will get pics and info tonight. thanks. also this is a brand new columbia boiler.

sz9

sz9

i have posted some pics of the new install and will post vent pics and info later tonight when i get home. thanks for any advise

sz9

also does anyone know if the hartford loop is plumbed correct.

ethicalpaul

It's higher than a typical Hartford loop, looks more like the alternate Gifford loop. See https://heatinghelp.com/assets/Uploads/HPACGiffordLoop.pdf

The horizontal nipple is longer than it should be. It should be a "short" nipple (the shortest possible nipple).

I can't say if it's going to cause you any issues. It might hammer a bit.

Edit: and I failed to look at first because I was focused on the hartford loop, but your near boiler piping is horrifically incorrect.

ethicalpaul

To address your original issue on this thread, it is very possible that your near boiler piping is delivering a large quantity of water to your main, which is then hitting your main vent and making it spray water and/or not remain sealed.

Different vents are more resistant to water effects than others.

Is the main vent emitting water? A photo of the main vent situation might be good too.

JUGHNE

Find the book that came with the boiler.
Based on the size of the boiler, you can see if you need 2 steam risers, what size and the sequence/order of pipe connections to be made. Also the location of a skim port coming out of the sides of the boiler.
See if there is a reducing bushing at the boiler outlet.
Do you have only 1 main steam line?

sz9

ethicalpaul

Nice closeups

So I take it from the location of the towel and water stains on your cool coke machine or toolbox that the main vent is in fact spewing water?

Limey68

If I’m seeing this right there is no reducer between the header and Hartford, could this cause carryover?

JUGHNE

These vents close when steam temp heat hits or they flood with water when then a float rises and closes the port.

If you get a new vent, a Gordon G2 will pass twice the air of the 75, for about the same price.

Your new boiler may have passed some debris up into the vent.
To help avoid that you could remove the vent and fittings that come off easily. Then put a 3/4" x 6' nipple up with a 90 pointing to the right towards the steam pipe. Then a 6-12" horizonal pipe with a 90 pointing up. On that add another 6" riser for your vent.
This may keep junk from finding it's way into your vents.
That is only a 3/4" connection for the return drop.
That is on the small side for wet returns.
Does the steam main slope down to drain into the copper drop?

sz9

t. he water stain is from when i was skimming the boiler and it got overfilled now when it is venting it is steam and maybe a mist of water.

sz9

guys, thank's for all the interest. this is all new to me. i'm just trying to learn and fix it. the guy that did the install won't return my calls.

sz9

ethicalpaul said:

It's higher than a typical Hartford loop, looks more like the alternate Gifford loop. See https://heatinghelp.com/assets/Uploads/HPACGiffordLoop.pdf

The horizontal nipple is longer than it should be. It should be a "short" nipple (the shortest possible nipple).

I can't say if it's going to cause you any issues. It might hammer a bit.

Edit: and I failed to look at first because I was focused on the hartford loop, but your near boiler piping is horrifically incorrect.

horrifically incorrect. this worries me. can you explain why ?

Jamie Hall

On the vent. That's a good vent. Maybe a little small, but good. It will close when it gets steam, of when it's flooded with water (there's a float). But... when it is getting steam plus water spray, which is likely with that cute little wet return connection, it may not get hot enough to close and it may not get wet enough for the float to close it. It will help if, as suggested, it is raised a good bit. You could also try a Gorton #2 there instead, as has been suggested, but they will behave similarly as to water mist.

ethicalpaul

horrifically incorrect. this worries me. can you explain why ?

Yeah, sorry, I don't want you to feel overwhelmed. It's not going to explode due to that piping. More likely is water in your main and/or water hammer.

Your boiler should be piped from both sides, not just the one side (do you see another port opposite the one in the pictures?) and there isn't really a "header" on your boiler at all, which means steam can "carry" boiler water up all the way to your main which isn't great.

There is the chance that even with incorrect piping, it can run fine, but there is not much room for error (your installer already used up all your extra room for error piping it that way).

Look through this brochure which will explain what is going on in a correct header: https://www.peerlessboilers.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/OnePipeSteam.pdf

Also you should consider buying the book "We Got Steam Heat" from the bookstore here on this very site. It will teach you a lot about your steam system: https://heatinghelp.com/store/detail/we-got-steam-heat-a-homeowners-guide-to-peaceful-coexistence

ethicalpaul

Limey68 said:

If I’m seeing this right there is no reducer between the header and Hartford, could this cause carryover?

No, I don't think so. The bigger problem I see is there is no actual header. The steam (and water it's carrying) are both going to want to go straight up from the boiler right past that tee, right up to the main.

sz9

thank you guys so much for all the help. i'm trying to take all this info in. i will post other pics in morning of skimmer port and pics of install manual.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I agree with @ethicalpaul

Piping is not right and the Hartford loop looks to high. It's probably throwing water up into the main and causing vent issues

Limey68

Limey68

Limey68 said:

I suppose I’m looking for a critique from the experts. I installed this. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

If your hartford loop is the right height I think your ok. Some say the top of the equalizer should be a full size elbow to help drain the header with a reducer farther down on the drop. I am sure it will be fine as is. I probably would have fed the make up water in down lower

sz9

ethicalpaul

OK first: that piping in the manual is...interesting. I'd have to put a sight glass or two on it before I really trash on it, but for sure I would never pipe a boiler that way.

But second, your boiler isn't piped that way. Note that in the manual page you show, the path of the steam and water. In their novel piping, the water and steam are shooting up from the boiler, then over, then down. Then the steam has to take the "side road" of that tee, turning horizontal. The water will tend to keep flowing down. Its inertia, and gravity, will make it want to keep flowing downward. This would act to separate the steam from the water.

But in your piping, there is not a turn downward. The water crashes into the bullhead tee (I think is the term). A lot of the water and all the steam will tend to continue going up. The water will be carried by the steam and nothing other than gravity (rather weak in this fight) will be against it.

Finally, as I said earlier, that unused 2nd side tapping (that you have a spigot on) I think should also be piped as a steam supply in that boiler design. You maybe used it as a skim, although it'd be better with like a 1-1/4 or 1-1/2 full port valve than that spigot.

ethicalpaul

Oh, and, that diagram you posted is for a counter-flow system and yours appears to be a parallel flow I think? I think I see a wet return.

sz9

EBEBRATT-Ed

The drawing above is weird. They show 24" above the water line to the bottom of the header and 28" to the center line of the boiler riser. If it was 2" pipe that leaves you about 3" to get two elbows in for the swing joint. Not happening.

Whomever drew these didn't know what they were doing

ethicalpaul

I wish my manual had that drop header picture though!! 😂

Other than that dimensional flaw, I like this drawing but why’d you post it, @sz9?

sz9

update. i had a heater guy that was highly recomended from my local heating supply store's come and take a look at my system. problem #1 boiler that was removed was a 115k btu and he installed a 189k btu. way too big. problem #2 as you guys said all the near boiler piping is incorrect and the hartford loop is 2 inch too high. says he could possiably repipe the near boiler piping but the boiler is still to big for the system. he recomend's replace boiler with a 112 btu and stay with the one pipe system . only problem is i payed 6800 $ in july and can't contact the original guy.

AdmiralYoda

Ouch.  Has anyone calculated the EDR of your radiators?  112k btu may still be oversized. 

189k btu is alot of steam for a single riser.  I'm surprised the manual doesn't recommend 2 of them.

Jamie Hall

Ouch. That hurts. I'm not a bit surprised you can't contact the original guy -- probably left town on the evening train.

Not quite sure how to get out of that pickle.

I'd definitely stay with the one pipe system as a whole, but i would try to get the monster piped at least remotely correctly Find the manual for it, and it will have a diagram -- which will be the absolute minimum piping configuration. Go overboard.

On the size, though... Oy. Well, when a boiler is that seriously oversize, unless you do something clever it will bounce off the pressure control like crazy. However, some people are finding that adding an delay timer on refiring, so that when it does turn off on pressure it stays off for a set period of time, rather than refiring right away. There are several threads on that floating around currently.

BobC

I second @Jamie Hall on his suggestion implement the time delay method @PMJ has found so helpful -

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/182209/wiring-time-delay-relay-for-steam-boiler-with-smart-stat#latest

Bob

sz9

AdmiralYoda said:

Ouch.  Has anyone calculated the EDR of your radiators?  112k btu may still be oversized. 

189k btu is alot of steam for a single riser.  I'm surprised the manual doesn't recommend 2 of them.

what is EDR and how do you calculate it. ?

AdmiralYoda

@sz9 I'm not a steam pro, just a DIY'r that has a steam hobby in his own home.  But I'll take a shot at explaining it.

EDR stands for Equivalent Direct Radiation.

Basically, the height of the radiator and number of tubes or columns dictates how much EDR each section of the radiator has.  Multiply that by the number of sections and you have your total EDR.

You can get the same EDR out of many different combinations of sizes and types of radiators.

If you Google "calculating EDR" you'll see a couple pdf's in the first few results that will show you how the calculation works.

SteamCoffee

PMJ and the time delay method...magical..automatic system resizing without a single wrench involved.....try it, cheaper than a repipe

bburd

EDR is square feet of heating surface. 1 square foot of steam EDR = 240 BTU per hour, based on 1 psig steam in the radiator (215° F) and no radiator enclosure or obstruction of air flow;  enclosures have various effects depending on their design, but most reduce the heating effect.

There are tables that give the EDR for almost every radiator ever manufactured.