Help on Radiant Heat Problem

TGO_wife

Hi.. Janice Schwarz here, widow of Tom of TGO Mechanical. Would like some input on a problem I'm having with my radiant heat.Not going into names or companies, their intentions were good, but...
Last week woke up to t-stat reading 63(set to 68), checked boiler, it's a Lochnivar Knight WBN106, screen read set point met for radiant heat zone(Grundfos Alpha Pump not circulating had -- on LED display) DHW working. Called for service.
Person A, told me boiler ok , pump had no voltage to it, so should be replaced. Says he can jump the t-stat to give me heat. I did not catch him in time to stop him & asked him to put it back the way he found it. He said he did.
Person B comes to replace pump(told by A that if variable speed pump is replaced by 3 speed pump like the DHW pump, It won't need to be wired thru the RIBU1C relay). After pump replacement with B&G NRF25, B stays until heat call is satisfied.
Not long after he left the temp starting rising, without a call from the t-stat for heat, he tries to tell me that's it's fine, it's just meeting temp. Both the radiant pump & the DHW pump were running at the same time with the same temp water(140 was the set point of the DHW) I KNOW that was wrong, The radiant temp should be limited to a max of 100. Upstairs is now 74.On the phone, he had me change some settings so the DHW wouldn't come on.
B comes back next day, thought there was air in the system & bled it & changes settings again. Declares all is good & leaves. And with no call for heat but for DHW, same problem, both pumps running & radiant tubes heating up.
B comes back that night & puts the pump wiring back thru the relay. The pump finally shuts off. I don't need to turn heat on because the house is at 70 after all this(It's energy star certified & the radiant tubes are installed in warm board). Had to open windows to get it down to that.
Next afternoon, Tuesday before Thanksgiving, after doing some laundry the Kitchen floor was getting warmer.T-stat now 72. Heat NOT on.So down to the boiler room. This time DHW calling, the radiant pump is off but the pex manifold is heating up thru the radiant return pipe. I call B again & explain. He says the system just needs to calibrate. I know there's a problem he's missing. He's going on Vacation & won't be available till Friday.
At this point I have no confidence he can get my system back to normal. I shut off the valve to the return so the manifold will cool down. Called Lochinvar tech support on Wednesday & they gave me name of Company C, also trained on Knight boilers.(I had used them a few years ago, but they had stopped doing residential work) I call, they can come Friday. So I deal with it. I have hot water & it's 62-63 & using the oven so a bit chilly, but fine.
C calls Friday afternoon, he can't come till Monday morning. When he gets here, I do my best to explain problem, ask if maybe the wiring is still wrong. He says relay never needed to be there. Says the t-stat is not communicating with the boiler now also no check valve in the replacement pump. Decides to jump the thermostat to give me heat. So I had to shut the radiant supply valve when it gets to 70 upstairs so the DHW will satisfy & then he has me shutting off the boiler at the Emergency switch. And turning it on if I need heat.
I want him to change out the B&G pump with the original variable speed Grundfos Alpha, I will order the pump & he says get another t-stat. C is coming back Thursday morning to do the work.
This set up was custom designed for this house, by Lochinvar's sales reps & installed by Tom. What's bothering me is the relay, & that it was there for a reason & that after the wiring changes, the system is no longer functioning as 2 separate zones. Lochinvar also said there may be a reason for it's existence. There is also a valve in the piping that doesn't seem to be controlled right now, stopping the higher temp water from reaching the radiant manifold.
After all this , my question is ..could a bad relay be the cause of the problem or the zone control? would this cause the radiant pump to shut down if it detected too high a temperature?
In any case, my faith in contractor C isn't too high at the moment, as he also did not seem to understand that the radiant manifold temp limit should be 100. & there should be 2 zones, 1 for the radiant & 1 for the DHW & they should I have no doubt he's experienced on the boiler... not so much on the radiant heating. It has been very difficult to find someone to work on this system. So need to have a backup plan if he can't do the job properly.
It's not just a bunch of pipes & equipment, it's the memory of my late husband & the pride & care he took in his work. If there's someone out there that may be able to help..Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated. I want the system returned to it's original state.Been more than a little stressed over this not knowing where to turn, then I remembered The Wall at Heating Help. Thanks..
the original pump
the replacement & the DHW
the relay inside boiler

JUGHNE

Can't help much myself, this is mainly a bump up.

I have about the same set up in my bsmt,
There is an extra relay for a second pump as the boiler panel can handle only so much.

Also was there a check valve in the pump that was changed?
That may or may not make a difference.

Gary Jansen_4

Janice, where are you located?
Maybe we can find someone who can help you out.
Thanks Gary

JUGHNE

Just a long shot, but are the arrows on the pumps both pointing in the same direction?
It has happened.

TGO_wife

I'm in East Northport, NY on Long Island. No check valve on the replacement pump. I wanted them to go back to the original grundfos alpha.
Service Guy D showed up this morning, & had to run thru the problem again.Changed the t-stat, but wasn't familiar with the Honeywell VisionPro 8000 that I got to replace the original Prestige..He finally managed to get the relay wired back into the system, & they seem to working separately again. Did not replace the pump. After he got the system working, .wasn't willing to spend any more time on the t-stat issue. Said he had been here for 3 hrs & was done.
So right now, I need thermostat help. The main t-stat is in the boiler room, with the upstairs temp controlled by a comfort control device. but now I can't get the Remote device to work correctly & not sure if it's a t-stat setting. The basement is 64 right now & upstairs is 66. The way Tom set up the radiant manifolds, the basement valves are turned down, so that if I had set the upstairs remote to 68, if it was very cold outdoors, the basement would stay at 60. I shut off the heat for now, because I don't want the basement getting warmer.
Will also need someone to change out the pump to the variable speed or if you think it best to at least install the check valve. Any help would be greatly appreciated , since D is not coming back to fix the t-stat problem

TGO_wife

UPDATE.. was able to connect the remote comfort control. But unsure if T-stat settings are right for the system. And not turning the heat on just yet. waiting for the remote t-stat to sense the upstairs temp correctly

TGO_wife

So it comes down to this, I think...If service A & B had just replaced the original pump with the exact same one, this would never had happened, A & B thought the Alpha pump was very expensive,(it's not) but didn't discuss with me .I'm struggling financially but the system needs what the system needs. I also want to make sure there has been no damage to the radiant from the high temps. And still not sure if everything is working as it should

JUGHNE

To me the first red flag was you said "Person A said no power to the pump and it should be replaced"....were those his words or did he mean it had power but not running?

You can look on the tubing for the max temp rating printed on it.
It may put your mind at rest, it sounded like the highest temp may have been 140 for short term.

TGO_wife

Person A said no power to the pump, no voltage..
& thanks for the info on the tubing..

JUGHNE

And so replace the pump.... I believe he said.
If so then a new pump didn't fix things and the mission to mess with wiring and relays began?

Do you still have the old pump and did you look at the directional arrows?

TGO_wife

Correct..Yes I do.. will go look at arrows, I did turn the heat on & it's functioning, just waiting for it to come up to temp.. It's at 67 set for 68...

Jamie Hall

Your first person was a little short on thinking. No power to the pump? That's not the pump's fault. The pump doesn't create power. That was something else somewhere.

Hard to say what other mischief your clown show there has caused, but someone is going to have to go right straight back to square one and figure this out.

TGO_wife

Arrows pointing up, replacement also..This is the screen on the boiler, the correct pumps are running.

TGO_wife

Usually the system is more responsive & it only takes a short time before the call for heat is satisfied. The set points for the radiant is at 91, previously it used to be 100. With everyone fiddling with the settings.. Not sure what was changed

TGO_wife

will give Lochnivar tech support a call...

JUGHNE

Someone here knows that control panel real well.
But it looks like zone 1 (little house 1) is system at 83 and the (83) following is the temp setting for that zone?
If so boiler would shut down shortly.

Do you have the books for this boiler, IIRC there are two of them.

JUGHNE

FWIW, your picture of the red B&G pump shows the yellow handle valve above to be closed. Is it open now?

TGO_wife

the boiler was not shutting down because it hadn't reached the temp on the t-stat...yes, it is & yes I have the books... just got off the phone with Tech support.. He said that the outdoor reset needed to be raised.. he had me bring to up to 125, & change the set point of SH1 to 125, when I did that & the DHW called, the radiant RETURN pipe is heating up & the supply remains cool. That should not happen. Tech support says sounds like a system issue.

TGO_wife

would the lack of a check valve cause this? or if the relay was faulty?
trying to find a contractor who works on radiant heat. My zip is 11731

Ironman

The lack of the check valve will cause water to be pumped from the indirect loop into the space heating loop.

Is the downstairs floor a slab? If so, 125* maybe a little too warm and cause it to over-heat.

If you know what the ODR settings were before they messed with them, I'd return them to that.

As others have mentioned, if the Alpha had no voltage to it, then it wasn't bad. Would you replace your tv because the plug that you connected it to had no power?

There are some good men on here that probably cover LI. You may wanna start a new thread entitled "looking for radiant heat help on LI" and include a link to this one.

As mentioned, someone competent really needs to come out and go over everything.

JUGHNE

And if you repost you may get more readers on the "Main Wall".

I read your previous posts from 2015, there were some posting there then that might be of help.

TGO_wife

OK thanks.. yes the downstairs floor is a slab...Will return the outdoor settings.FYI.. the max supply temperature is designed to be 92..Posted on the main wall

JUGHNE

(Bump)
If you look at the pump that was removed you may see the check valve installed in the discharge end, the other end will be just open.

TGO_wife

yes there was a check valve in the original grundfos alpha pump.. the box that I have from the B&G replacement says no check valve included

TGO_wife

searching for someone local to help go over this mess..East Northport, NY 11731. Please let me know if you are interested & can help. Thanks...

EzzyT

Reach out to @Danny Scully from Scully Plumbing and Heating 

Ironman

Danny is the best, if you can get him.

TGO_wife

I called , but am out of his service area.

TGO_wife

Question.. So if the pump was not the problem at all. This is where my knowledge is on very shaky ground. Could a control(or the relay) have failed, tripped a high temperature limit on the grundfos pump & locked the pump out?

hot_rod

If the Grundfos had any reading on the display, even --- it must have had power going to it. With no power it is just a flat black piece of plastic Two lines usually means a blocked or stuck pump.
So the first service call doesn't sound right at all. Jumpering a thermostat would not change anything if the pump was in fact powered?
If the pump is powered and running the screen flops from gpm to watts. Sounds like the original problem of no radiant was the pump not spinning?

There needs to be check valves on the circulators if they are pumping from the same manifold. A simple test would be to turn off the other pump, close off the ball valve and see if you get flow through the new circulator. Assuming it is running.

The nice thing about electronic circs like you had they have displays to help see what is or should be going on.
I suspect the first Alpha was just stuck? Is it still around?

TGO_wife

@hot_rod & yep that was the original problem.The alpha had -- in LED across it..yes the first alpha is still around it had a check valve , & positive there's no check valve in the replacement... the box says sold separately . Just got off phone with the guy who said the pump was bad, after explaining situation, he says it sounds like a control issue(which he thinks is new) I think it was the problem from the beginning . I don't think the zone controls are working.
The alpha was wired thru a relay in the boiler.

TGO_wife

So..the pump installer says he put a check valve in. Service guy A asks me to send a picture of the inside of the boiler to him, he says nothing looks wrong to him. &" to ask B nicely to check if everything is working.. he is good at that"
I again tried to put the heat on.. after an hr.. hasn't moved a degree.. So I go down to check. & The DHW is on , & the RETURN is hot(140 water coming from the boiler).. shut off heat, close valves so can redirect the water back to the DHW. Text Service Guy B that problem still exits, & he asks me what I want to do about it & says if I want to pay him, he will swap out the 3 speed pump with the variable speed I originally had. So back to finding someone to fix this disaster. I don't think having Service Guy B back is going to help the situation.
Spoke to another contractor who doesn't service Lochnivar & he said it sounds like a control issue or setting that B messed with. Any advice?

Ironman

How about a pic of the high voltage boiler terminal block where the pumps connect? And any other controls.

You'll need to remove the gray metal cover.

TGO_wife

Do I have to shut the boiler down to do that? & not sure where the controls would be located. @Ironman

Ironman

That migh be a good idea to avoid live parts.

There's a Phillips screw on the bottom and the top corners have a hinge.

TGO_wife

ok.. back in a few minutes

TGO_wife

the cover wasn't attached, I just lifted it off @Ironman

Ironman

Im not sure why the RIB was used or what's been done by the parade of "techs" that have been there.

Is there another pump besides the two you've shown in the pics?

The boiler is able to control the system pump, the boiler pump and the DHW pump on its own without a relay (RIB), so I really don't know why it's there.

Can you post some more pics from further back that show the boiler, pumps, manifold and any other controls?

TGO_wife

the RIB was there from the original installation with the grundfos variable speed pump.

TGO_wife

when the pump was replaced , he first wired it without the relay & the boiler for the radiant pump wouldn't shut off

Ironman

The operation of the pumps can be changed in the boiler programing.