check nozzle

tommydee

can i (homeowner) pull out and check the numbers on the burner nozzle, and not void the warranty ?? 

1075NH

Why on earth would you want a homeowner attempting such a thing? You are opening yourself up to a host of problems if they make a mistake and do you really want them reassembling everything and then turning it back on? At most have them take a picture of the boiler (or furnace) data plate and the unit itself. That should at least be enough to get you in the ball park of what nozzles to bring. Did you ask if any service tags are hanging on the boiler? 99% of them will have a nozzle size scribbled on them.

And second, what warranty? The burner warranty?

HVACNUT

Why do you need to know? The GPH stamped on the nozzle isn't necessarily the firing rate if the pump pressure is over 100 psi. A qualified tech should have a plethora of nozzles so it shouldn't be a worry.

tommydee

1075NH said:

Why on earth would you want a homeowner attempting such a thing? You are opening yourself up to a host of problems if they make a mistake and do you really want them reassembling everything and then turning it back on? At most have them take a picture of the boiler (or furnace) data plate and the unit itself. That should at least be enough to get you in the ball park of what nozzles to bring. Did you ask if any service tags are hanging on the boiler? 99% of them will have a nozzle size scribbled on them. And second, what warranty? The burner warranty?

Its very simple on a new oil burned boiler (i am the homeowner)
 i had a boiler installed.. the company that installed it claims they put in another more efficient nozzle, when i am almost certain they didnt.. and i just want to check it

i dont know, any kind of warranty associated with it

Jamie Hall

Did they leave the combustion test results? They should be on the boiler or on a nearby wall or something like that. When they installed the unit, they should have run a complete combustion test on it, and the test results will have -- among other things -- the calculated efficiency of the boiler. It should also say what size and angle and type of nozzle was installed.

If you pull the nozzle and feed line to take a peek, you will need to reset the electrodes when you put it back in and redo the combustion test. Are you able to do that?

If they didn't do a combustion test, they weren't doing the job right -- either ask them to come back and do it right, or find someone who will.

tommydee

HVACNUT said:

Why do you need to know? The GPH stamped on the nozzle isn't necessarily the firing rate if the pump pressure is over 100 psi. A qualified tech should have a plethora of nozzles so it shouldn't be a worry.

I was told they replaced it so it more efficient making it 84% to 86%
But i feel its BS, it came with a .85 70b nozzle and i bet thats whats still there 

STEVEusaPA

Make/model # of boiler?
The bigger question is...what's the actual problem? Did they charge you some outrageous price to put in this so-called 'more efficient nozzle'?
There's no such thing as that, but what they may have said is by changing the nozzle to the one they put in, the burner operated more efficiently, as shown by their before and after combustion analysis printout. Do you have a printout?

Call the company, owner/manager. Tell them your concerns. Tell them you want to see the combustion analysis of your burner, and when the tech comes over have that person pull the nozzle assembly and show you the nozzle.
Like @HVACNUT said, they may have picked a different nozzle/pump pressure combo to make it run better, more efficient.

SlamDunk

tommydee said:

HVACNUT said:

Why do you need to know? The GPH stamped on the nozzle isn't necessarily the firing rate if the pump pressure is over 100 psi. A qualified tech should have a plethora of nozzles so it shouldn't be a worry.

I was told they replaced it so it more efficient making it 84% to 86%
But i feel its BS, it came with a .85 70b nozzle and i bet thats whats still there 




The more important numbers are CO, O2, Excess air, CO2, temperature coupled with a smoke test. Besides, that 2% efficiency is for the flame only- not the boiler. 86% is very good if all the other numbers are good.

Everyone here is concerned that you could really mess up your combustion if you remove the nozzle and put it back. You can't eyeball it. The slightest, imperceptible change could make for really bad combustion making your 86% drop to 75%. Your CO could go from 0 -100ppm.

Your best bet is to call them and see if they can give you a warm, fuzzy over the phone. Or return and show you. But make sure they leave a print out of the combustion analysis with you. It is a good record to have.

tommydee

STEVEusaPA said:

Make/model # of boiler? The bigger question is...what's the actual problem? Did they charge you some outrageous price to put in this so-called 'more efficient nozzle'? There's no such thing as that, but what they may have said is by changing the nozzle to the one they put in, the burner operated more efficiently, as shown by their before and after combustion analysis printout. Do you have a printout? Call the company, owner/manager. Tell them your concerns. Tell them you want to see the combustion analysis of your burner, and when the tech comes over have that person pull the nozzle assembly and show you the nozzle. Like @HVACNUT said, they may have picked a different nozzle/pump pressure combo to make it run better, more efficient.

Its a Carrier BW5BAH-140 
which he "modified" to the -91

There is no print outs of combustion test

I know i might be nitpicking, but I want what the contract states.. and my contract states i am getting a 86% energy star rated boiler, and i dont think thats what i got
 out

SlamDunk

Yeah, I'm afraid you are nit picking. You need to read the foot notes.


** Heating capacity based on 13%CO2 and -0.02WC draft over fire. Gotta have those.

+ ....140000 btu/gallon. Does every gallon of oil have 140000btu?

++....Efficiency based on D.O.E. test procedure. Which means your setup needs to meet conditions of test procedure. I'm betting it isn't.

Jamie Hall

First off, the .85 on the nozzle refers to gallons per hour at rated pressure. Probably 100 psi. And has absolutely nothing to do with efficiency.

Second, the actual measured efficiency of your boiler in your specific situation may not be the same as the measured efficiency on a D.O.E. test, any more than the gas mileage you get out of your car will be the same as what is printed on the window sticker for the EPA mileage when the car was new.

Third, the actual measured efficiency of your boiler in your specific situation will depend entirely on the skill of the technician adjusting the burner -- and, if he's a real klutz, could be as low as 70% or as high as 86% if you're really lucky. More like 82% in the real world. Just like the actual measured fuel mileage of your car will depend on how it is driven.

Fourth, you bought a boiler rated at 86.3%. So you got exactly what you paid for and what your contract stated.

STEVEusaPA

Basically your 3 section boiler has 3 firing rates.
They probably picked the lowest to closer match your heat loss. If they did everything else right, combustion wise and any other modifications required to lower the firing rate ( heat exchanger baffles, low fire baffle and proper head for Beckett).
And they did a proper combustion to test to make sure you have: proper draft, true zero smoke, high enough flue temp so you don't condense, I would say you're fine.

tommydee

Jamie Hall said:

First off, the .85 on the nozzle refers to gallons per hour at rated pressure. Probably 100 psi. And has absolutely nothing to do with efficiency. Second, the actual measured efficiency of your boiler in your specific situation may not be the same as the measured efficiency on a D.O.E. test, any more than the gas mileage you get out of your car will be the same as what is printed on the window sticker for the EPA mileage when the car was new. Third, the actual measured efficiency of your boiler in your specific situation will depend entirely on the skill of the technician adjusting the burner -- and, if he's a real klutz, could be as low as 70% or as high as 86% if you're really lucky. More like 82% in the real world. Just like the actual measured fuel mileage of your car will depend on how it is driven. Fourth, you bought a boiler rated at 86.3%. So you got exactly what you paid for and what your contract stated.

Thank you its making more sense.. But all the paper work and even called carrier had them look up serial number  states the boiler is an 84% boiler 
contractor said he replaced the nozzle to run at 86.3....
Sooo on the model number serial number sticker it states the furnished nozzle is .85 70b... if i or an oil tech take out that nozzle and its still .85 70b, it would mean they lied to me and not replaced it?

Jamie Hall

On the efficiency -- if you look again at the sticker on the boiler, you will note that in -140 form, with 1.00 gph nozzle, it is rated at 84.0%. In the -91 form, with the 0.85 gph nozzle, it is rated at 86.3 %. Assuming that the technician did the full modification to the -91 form, you've got a boiler rated at 86.3% -- and the .85 gph nozzle is the correct nozzle, whether he replaced it or not. It might have come with the 1.00 gph nozzle -- or it might have come with the 0.85 gph nozzle.

EdTheHeaterMan

I'm reminded of a saying my mother used to tell me. "People see YOU through their own eyes." Meaning that the average person expects you to act based on their experience. If you are a kind, honest, trusting, and generally good individual, You expect that everyone else is the same until they prove themselves differently.

If you are the type of person that will take advantage of a situation at the expense of others, then you expect others to act the same way, so you might judge the kind, honest, trusting generally good individual based on your viewpoint as a person that may be taking advantage of you.

When a homeowner indicated that they did not trust my judgment or diagnosis, I would tell them what my mother use to say and then ask them why they thought I was "less than honest" with them? and then suggest that they should get a contractor that they were more comfortable with to give them service. I would not be offended by their decision since I only wanted customers that trusted my judgment and believed I had their best interest at heart.

If you trust me, then you will call me for repeat business. I will give value for your $$$

If you don't trust me, then every visit will be a difficult and trying discussion taking longer to complete, resulting in lower profit and higher customer dissatisfaction. and more stress for me. I would rather my competitor deal with that, Sorry for taking up your time.

Maybe it is time you get a second opinion.





.

jerryb46

Well said ED!!!

BDR529

Suspecious of anyone who touches it and probably buys fuel from the least expensive. So your gonna get bio and a good amount of it.

SlamDunk

"People see YOU through their own eyes."

An old Irish woman explained that to me a life time ago.

Whenever I think ill of a person, I wonder if I'm the horrible one.

Grallert

If it were me I'd ask the installer to return and do a combustion test and leave the slip with you. It does sometimes happen the the printer has dead batteries or has run out of paper but with some heads up these shouldn't be an issue. If the numbers work out there really shouldn't a concern. There are so many other things that effect the combustion numbers.

EdTheHeaterMan

SlamDunk said:

"People see YOU through their own eyes."

An old Irish woman explained that to me a life time ago.

Whenever I think ill of a person, I wonder if I'm the horrible one.

My mother was "of IRISH decent" Go figure!
Don't Wander Too Far... You might get lost

Jamie Hall

SlamDunk said:

"People see YOU through their own eyes."

An old Irish woman explained that to me a life time ago.

Whenever I think ill of a person, I wonder if I'm the horrible one.

I've written several sermons more or less on that subject... but I won't bore you!

SlamDunk

You should post podcasts with your sermons on here. I'd listen

HVACNUT

@EdTheHeaterMan, was that a "Thank" for the mention by @Jamie Hall, or because he won't bore us? Lol. Either way I'm good. You always need to step outside yourself and take a gander back in.
I like a saying by the fictitious Hieronymus Bosch, (The LA Detective, not the painter, who was very non fiction) "Everybody counts or nobody counts." He usually works open unsolved murder cases so a I'm little out of context but it works on the living too.
@tommydee, you have every right to get exactly what you paid for. That lower firing rate is probably still too much for your heating needs. Sorry if you already answered, but what are you using for domestic hot water? If the boiler is using the tankless coil then throw Energy Star in the trash. It doesn't matter. If you're using an indirect, is .65 gph (approx 91K BTU) enough to meet the demand? From the sheets I read, that boiler, without a tankless, has a Honeywell L8148L aquastat. It doesn't offer condensate protection. And with a low firing rate you kinda want that. The near boiler piping plays a big role in that as well. Moving on to the chimney. Interior, exterior, liner?
With great efficiency comes great price.
Is the burner Beckett or Riello?

EdTheHeaterMan

HVACNUT said:

@EdTheHeaterMan, was that a "Thank" for the mention by @Jamie Hall, or because he won't bore us? Lol.

the latter. LOL