Solder Hot water Ball Valves

diy_ny

I would like to solder a hot water ball valve in the basement before it goes up to the kitchen fixture. Just curious, what is the best way to drain the hot water prior to soldering? The lowest point is the basement sink and the gas water heater. Should I turn off the gas water heater as well so it doesn't create any further hot water? 

HVACNUT

You can drain from the basement sink and leave the water heater alone. Shut off the water main first.
Open faucets and leave them open (hot and cold) on the upper level(s).
When done with the valve, turn off all the faucets, open the main and check for leaks.
If it's all good, turn on a bathtub and run the hot and cold side to flush out the air and sediment. Run it until the water is clear. Then turn on the other fixtures and flush those. 

STEVEusaPA

You can stick a jet sweat in there for a full port ball valve to block the water.
...or propress a ball valve in there.

Ironman

I'm not a huge fan of Sharkbite, but they do make ball valves. I'd rather see someone who's not proficient with a torch use them instead of trying to solder.

diy_ny

Thank you HVACnut and SteveusaPA. Yes, I was going to use a jet sweat during this but will prepare and practice lots of times before actually doing it as I haven't done it for a while. I do have a fire extinguisher ready and will use a damp rag and place it on the valve with maybe a flame protector. Yes, Ironman, I do have sharkbites as a last resort. The reason why I prefer to solder this, is because the ceiling will be finished, but there will be an access panel for all of these valves. Thanks. 

hot_rod

low points can be a tough go if water keeps trickling back. In some cases you may need to use compressed air to blow then piping dry.

Or a chunk of Wonder Bread

For a DIYer SharkBite s @Ironman mentioned, or in some box stores you can find compression style ball valves.

mattmia2

I would recommend the compression fitting over the sharkbite. Keep in mind in order to compress the ring properly it takes a lot more force that you would think. If you have tiem to plan you have time to obtain compression fittings or an NPT valve and compression to NPT adapters.

Can also spray any adjacent wood with water. Be very careful of cavities that the flame can be drawn up inside.

I'd turn the water heater to "pilot" until you have the water back on and air flushed out.

Ironman

Soldering a brass valve requires a different approach than doing a copper to copper joint.

Ironman

Some plumbing and HVAC supply houses will let you rent a ProPress for a day. You could end up with a lot of frustration trying to sweat a valve in a low spot on a weekend.

With the ProPress, you'd spend more time taking the tool out of box, attaching the tongs and putting it away than you would actually pressing the joint. It's that quick and simple and it doesn't matter if there's water in the pipe as long as it's not under pressure.

mattmia2

Ironman said:

Soldering a brass valve requires a different approach than doing a copper to copper joint.

Not as much as brazing copper to brass. BTW, how is that supposed to work? I managed to get a globby mess to hold the refrigerant in the dehumidifier but it isn't how I would have liked it to have gone.

BDR529

Man, just call a guy.

Could cost you the whole weekend and then some.

What about your brothers cousins sisters ex-roomate?

GroundUp

@mattmia2
More heat. You have to get the copper red hot and the brass darn close to it, before the rod will flow. When it does, it's almost as wet as soft solder but with better control. If it didn't anneal the copper and look like crap, I'd braze everything.

mattmia2

See, it would wet the copper without a problem but i couldn't get it to wet the brass.

Jamie Hall

Is this an older home? Say more than 15 to 20 years? If so, and if the joint in question is less than a foot from wood, I would very very strongly recommend that you do almost anything except solder. Setting fire to a stray joist or floor board is just too easy to do -- one distracted wave of the torch can do it -- and that can ruin your whole day.

STEVEusaPA

@ChrisJ you don’t like propress?

ChrisJ

STEVEusaPA said:

@ChrisJ you don’t like propress?

I was looking trying to figure out why you said that.   I guess I accidentally hit disagree.

P.s. brazing brass to copper requires flux unlike copper to copper.  That being said I did it in my monitor top using staysilv 15 without flux in 2013 and it seems to be a good joint.

GroundUp

ChrisJ said:

STEVEusaPA said:

@ChrisJ you don’t like propress?

I was looking trying to figure out why you said that.   I guess I accidentally hit disagree.

P.s. brazing brass to copper requires flux unlike copper to copper.  That being said I did it in my monitor top using staysilv 15 without flux in 2013 and it seems to be a good joint.

Thousands upon thousands of brazed copper to brass joints in refer piping through my career, I have never once used flux. Staysilv for the win

ChrisJ

GroundUp said:

ChrisJ said:

STEVEusaPA said:

@ChrisJ you don’t like propress?

I was looking trying to figure out why you said that.   I guess I accidentally hit disagree.

P.s. brazing brass to copper requires flux unlike copper to copper.  That being said I did it in my monitor top using staysilv 15 without flux in 2013 and it seems to be a good joint.


Thousands upon thousands of brazed copper to brass joints in refer piping through my career, I have never once used flux. Staysilv for the win

I'm not sure how to respond to this?

Here's what's recommended.

EdTheHeaterMan

Seems like everyone is going way off the original question. adding a valve to a copper water pipe does not need high-temperature welding or braising

Bubba always carried JB Weld for just this occasion

SlamDunk

Wet combustible surfaces in hot work area thoroughly before sweating, use kevlar heat blanket if possible, have someone behind you with an extinguisher and hang around for half an hour after hot work is done in case there is a smoldering splinter that could ignite.

I use sharkbite/valve/and flex hose on water heater because I can never find a replacement heater that has same dimensions as old water heater. I got tired of re-piping.

Pro-press, if you can rent one, is your best friend!

EBEBRATT-Ed

Don;t know why everyone is afraid of the old torch. For years that's all we had

Get some old fittings and tubing and practice, that's how we learn. It's not rocket science

mattmia2

46 year old me is a lot more concerned about setting something on fire than 26 year old me was.

hot_rod

Also on more and more commercial buildings a hot permit is required if you have a torch in the building. The permit hassle, cost and additional fire watch often are enough to want to leave the torch behind forever.

mattmia2

they made one of our av contractors get a burn permit to solder on one of our projects.

GroundUp

Hot work permits are the norm in most commercial construction, but it seldom requires a firewatch or any cost. It's typically as simple as grabbing a sheet from whoever's in charge of the building, filling it out with name, location, phone number, time, etc and handing it back to the dude for a signature. When the permit expires at the end of each day, you (the solderer) sign off that everything has been flame free for 30 minutes and return it to the dude. Very simple process, just a little time consuming

ChrisJ

The last valves I did I wrapped with a wet rag to be safe.   They turned out good 

Whenever soldering pipe that had water in it I always heat pipe with the torch to cook any water out and make sure it'll stay dry.  Any steam or sizzle while soldering and the joint is garbage.

SlamDunk

mattmia2 said:

46 year old me is a lot more concerned about setting something on fire than 26 year old me was.

This!

I went from galvanized to sweated copper in my 1930 bungalow while in my 20's. I know it would look nicer if I didnt have to worry about burning down the house. There are joists with torch marks.

Just this year, I found a joint improperly sweated joint leaking in the the crawl space. Probablr because it was too close to wood, I didnt heat it enough. Emergency Repair was done with a shark bite. I may go back with the propress. Definately not sweating!

Propress is infinitely safer near wood. And so much more pleasant to use if you have water in the pipe. I'm sold on it.

ChrisJ

SlamDunk said:

46 year old me is a lot more concerned about setting something on fire than 26 year old me was.

This! I went from galvanized to sweated copper in my 1930 bungalow while in my 20's. I know it would look nicer if I didnt have to worry about burning down the house. There are joists with torch marks. Just this year, I found a joint improperly sweated joint leaking in the the crawl space. Probablr because it was too close to wood, I didnt heat it enough. Emergency Repair was done with a shark bite. I may go back with the propress. Definately not sweating! Propress is infinitely safer near wood. And so much more pleasant to use if you have water in the pipe. I'm sold on it.

Shielding helps a lot.

I did a few joints between wood cat 5 and rg6 Romex.  I got away without burning any of it but I'll admit it took time, planning and I didn't enjoy it.

I probably spent almost an hour just setting up for it.  

I doubt propress would fit but I could've got pro pex fittings to work since you can expand away from the area.

JUGHNE

I use the Thermal block spray on valves and then wrap with wet rags.
For wood protection the Thermal block spray works for me. Or a scrap of tin...or a scrap of sacrificial plywood that can be dropped into a 5 gallon bucket of water before and after.

Wires and cable get wrapped with wet soaked rags that are rewetted just before the torch work.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Many times if you think about what you are doing you can avoid soldering in those cramped spots.

Like prefab a couple of pipes with an elbow and put it in place connect the two ends with couplings.

You can sometimes avoid tight spaces with a little planning.

If you can get the big propress jaws in there you should be able to solder it.

and quit the turbo torch, use a prestolite tip you can turn it down and solder with a smaller flame

And I know all about fire watch. In MA you have to take a test and get an NFPA card to use a torch


We did a job in a school a couple of years ago. We had to hire a fireman from the fire dept and pay him $42.00/hour to be a fire watch.................He sat in his truck and read porno

ChrisJ

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Many times if you think about what you are doing you can avoid soldering in those cramped spots. Like prefab a couple of pipes with an elbow and put it in place connect the two ends with couplings. You can sometimes avoid tight spaces with a little planning. If you can get the big propress jaws in there you should be able to solder it. and quit the turbo torch, use a prestolite tip you can turn it down and solder with a smaller flame And I know all about fire watch. In MA you have to take a test and get an NFPA card to use a torch We did a job in a school a couple of years ago. We had to hire a fireman from the fire dept and pay him $42.00/hour to be a fire watch.................He sat in his truck and read porno

I'm confused by the turbo torch comment.
Those swirl tips allow a much hotter smaller flame than normal.

I'm still using up my mapp tank on a cheap bernzomatic torch but my #2 turbo torch tip is hotter and far far smaller of a flame.

hot_rod

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Many times if you think about what you are doing you can avoid soldering in those cramped spots.

Like prefab a couple of pipes with an elbow and put it in place connect the two ends with couplings.

You can sometimes avoid tight spaces with a little planning.

If you can get the big propress jaws in there you should be able to solder it.

and quit the turbo torch, use a prestolite tip you can turn it down and solder with a smaller flame

And I know all about fire watch. In MA you have to take a test and get an NFPA card to use a torch


We did a job in a school a couple of years ago. We had to hire a fireman from the fire dept and pay him $42.00/hour to be a fire watch.................He sat in his truck and read porno

It varies on what is required for hot permits, here is what California requires, and may building owners have additional requirements.
https://up.codes/viewer/california/ca-fire-code-2016/chapter/35/welding-and-other-hot-work#35

I think Toronto requires the fire watch to stay on the job after work is completed for a period of time.

Larry Weingarten

Hi, Had to do some sweating in the wall of a straw bale house a few years ago. It worked out fine, but it was a bit nervous-making! I took lots of precautions... wet rags, spray bottle, flame shield, extinguisher and someone to watch. It's a very good time to not be in a hurry!

Yours, Larry

mattmia2

With propex you can pull the tub out of the space, expand it, them jam it on a fitting in some dark corner to shrink back down so it can get in to some spaces that maybe the only other thing you could get in to is brass or galvanized you could screw in to a fitting from both sides.

I spent some time today making some subassemblies out of copper to replace some of the galvanized in my mom's house tomorrow.

I was going to use some propex to connect it up to the old galvanized without having to solder it close to the framing but I realized i could accomplish the same thing with copperxcopper unions which are about half the price of 1" propex adapters and 1" propex tube is about the same cost per foot as copper.(at least buying it online, might be different at a supply house).

Matt_67

ChrisJ said:

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Many times if you think about what you are doing you can avoid soldering in those cramped spots.

Like prefab a couple of pipes with an elbow and put it in place connect the two ends with couplings.

You can sometimes avoid tight spaces with a little planning.

If you can get the big propress jaws in there you should be able to solder it.

and quit the turbo torch, use a prestolite tip you can turn it down and solder with a smaller flame

And I know all about fire watch. In MA you have to take a test and get an NFPA card to use a torch


We did a job in a school a couple of years ago. We had to hire a fireman from the fire dept and pay him $42.00/hour to be a fire watch.................He sat in his truck and read porno

I'm confused by the turbo torch comment.
Those swirl tips allow a much hotter smaller flame than normal.

I'm still using up my mapp tank on a cheap bernzomatic torch but my #2 turbo torch tip is hotter and far far smaller of a flame.

I agree on the prestolite torch - I carry one in the truck for just this reason. Turned down it’s a smaller more focused flame. It takes longer to solder but works really well. I have an adapter to use it with an mc tank.

unclejohn

@ChrisJ I can solder 1 1/2" pipe with mapp gas no problem. Turbo torch to loud for me. Also the prefab is much easier and safer and only cost a extra coupling or two. It's mandatory on reversing valves for me. Also you can use some sheet metal as a flame guard for a tight spot joint if I need too.

ChrisJ

unclejohn said:

@ChrisJ I can solder 1 1/2" pipe with mapp gas no problem. Turbo torch to loud for me. Also the prefab is much easier and safer and only cost a extra coupling or two. It's mandatory on reversing valves for me. Also you can use some sheet metal as a flame guard for a tight spot joint if I need too.

I did my 2" copper equalizer with the Mapp torch.   The point was the turbo torch has a much smaller flame that fits in cramped spaces.

Matt_67

Here is what I think of when someone says prest-o-lite. Its a softer flame than the turbo torch swirl tips.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@ChrisJ
@Matt_67 explained it better than I did. I prefer the Prestolite torch for most jobs especially in tight spaces where you don't want to start a fire.

Probably a little slower than a turbotorch but less noise as @unclejohn mentioned. I do switch to turbo torch for larger sizes (usually 1" and up) but it depends am I jammed up against wood or outdoors with the wind blowing? Every situation is different.

I uses the same torch Matt pictured and swap the tips. Turbo torch has a "snappy adapter" which you can use to mount turbotorch tips onto that prestolite torch

JUGHNE

When possible I solder the ball valves to necessary lengths of pipes.
They are easier to solder horizontally held in a vise.
Then just do the simpler fittings....90's or couplings in a tight space.

mattmia2

I don't do a whole lot of sweating of pipe. i have gone to buying NPT valves and adapters. The extra buck or 2 is cheap insurance against burning up the valve. I especially do it for expensive valves like zone valves and such.