Guess the construction date of this basement wall!!

HarnessedPower

Hi! I’m a new member, I had to make an account after perusing the Wall and seeing this thread. I live in Superior, WI, and own a 1914 home, and your pictures remind me very much of my house. Anyway, there was a local lumberyard, back in the 30’s to the 50’s, that partnered with a local builder to design, build, and finance homes locally. I came across a couple pictures of a contract and the finished house at the local Historical Society awhile back - the house is actually still standing, in good shape, about 3 blocks down the road from me. I thought you all might enjoy reading the specs!

Andy

HarnessedPower

To add: the “hot-air furnace” was only common in these “Lagae” homes - most other older homes in town, including my own, were (and still are) heated by hot water with large cast iron radiators. I grew up in a large home built in 1895, and the heating system is a thing of beauty.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I'm sticking with mid 20s to 1930. I think you will find the 1926 date correct

Steamhead

ethicalpaul said:

Here are some photos to fill in some of your questions above:

Your house is what I would call a "standard design". There are probably thousands of similar houses in Baltimore and surrounding communities. I've seen slight variations which I would assume reflect the builder's preference for doing things a certain way. All the ones I've seen dated from the 1920s.

Getting back to the radiators: If some of the ones you know are original are the column-type (slightly curved top and thick vertical members within a section) these were discontinued after 1925, so your house is at least that old. If they have the Victorian scrollwork cast into them, they can't be newer than about 1920.

If your oldest rads are the rectilinear, flat-topped variety and the section spacing (center to center of adjoining sections) is 2-1/2 inches, these were made between 1925 and about 1939.

Pics?

HVACNUT

On the cellar plan the B is for boiler I guess but what is the W.T. x 2 on the side wall? Is it a clue?
For really no reason at all I say post war 1919. It wasn't Roaring yet.

mattmia2

Wash tub?

PerryHolzman

My brothers house was built in the mid-late 1920's and it had a mix of Knob & Tube & BX as original wiring (I was the lead on rewiring his house as "homeowners" are allowed to do that in Wisconsin - and the inspectors don't mind if "family" is helping). So they both existed at the same time for at least a few years.

Perry

Zman

@ethicalpaul
Is there more to the puzzle?
I am thinking that everything is pointing to 1926.

JUGHNE

I'm guessing the CI apron tub remodel was post WW2.
Any solder applying round ports on the cu sweat fittings.
Fittings used to come with holes in the hubs to apply the solder.

Was the tub slow draining?
Did it have a drum trap?
Any evidence of backing for a high mount WC tank?

I find it hard to believe that in 1920 only 1% had power and plumbing......where I live in rural NEBR yes but not nationwide.

Zman

JUGHNE said:

I'm guessing the CI apron tub remodel was post WW2.
Any solder applying round ports on the cu sweat fittings.
Fittings used to come with holes in the hubs to apply the solder.

Was the tub slow draining?
Did it have a drum trap?
Any evidence of backing for a high mount WC tank?

I find it hard to believe that in 1920 only 1% had power and plumbing......where I live in rural NEBR yes but not nationwide.

https://www.nps.gov/edis/learn/kidsyouth/the-electric-light-system-phonograph-motion-pictures.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_electric_power_transmission

It was closer to 50% in 1925

Gsmith

Check with your towns historical society I bet they can nail it to within a year or two. I’m guessing 1926-1928. I live in a house in the next town from you, Montclair, and my house with very similar features was built in 1926. Lathe and plaster walls, coal fired steam heat, mix of knob and tube and box, and layer Romeo wiring, galvanized water piping, cast iron sewage, but we have poured concrete basement walls. Most houses like yours in this area were built in “developments” by the same builder who probably built 10-30 houses all in a block or two. There was a terrific amount of housing built in this area in the mid to late 1920,s. I say 1928, check your deed as Jugne said or check the historical society.

JUGHNE

In this small Village, they got a 130' stand pipe water tower in 1919.
It is still in use today.
Those who could afford it connected.
Diesel power plant in the early 1920's, daytime operation only for the first 2 years. (Upgraded and on standby today)
Sewer system in 1937, (WPA project), many septic tanks before that.

To put this in perspective; we are 30 miles from any traffic signal; 100 miles from a Walmart or Menhard's and 200 miles west of Omaha. Truly fly over country.

Country people got power from the REA project in the early 50's.
They would have been the 1% before that.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Help me out here because I'm confused:

@ethicalpaul asks us to "estimate the age of a basement wall". He phrases his sentence to differentiate between the wall and the house. Wouldn't you say something like, "estimate when the house was built" referring to the house as a whole unit? Was the wall built for a previous house and then re-used for this structure?

Secondly, what does "O & C" stand for? O & C Construction? O & C Concrete Fabrication?

ethicalpaul

> @Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:
> Help me out here because I'm confused:
>
> @ethicalpaul asks us to "estimate the age of a basement wall". He phrases his sentence to differentiate between the wall and the house. Wouldn't you say something like, "estimate when the house was built" referring to the house as a whole unit? Was the wall built for a previous house and then re-used for this structure?
>
> Secondly, what does "O & C" stand for? O & C Construction? O & C Concrete Fabrication?

I did it that way because I hoped the blocks with their markings would be a good indicator. But then it became clear that wasn’t gonna cut it. The real question is “when was my house built—it seems to me too new for 1915”

I don’t know what “O&C” is, I was hoping someone might.

I’ll post pics of my different radiators tonight

mattmia2

O & C was the manufacturer of the block. It could be anything from private branding for a local lumber yard to national company.

ethicalpaul

> @mattmia2 said:
> O & C was the manufacturer of the block. It could be anything from private branding for a local lumber yard to national company.

Well yes I knew it was the manufacturer 😅

ethicalpaul

I think these are original. They are large and in the Dining Room and Kitchen.

ethicalpaul

mattmia2 said:

Looking at the picture of the demo'd wall again, it kind of looks like it has wood lath on one side and expanded metal lath on the other. Rocklath/button board is multi coat plaster over 2'x4' drywall panels. On the one side of your wall I can see a piece of wood lath cut off, on the other side it looks like the borwn coat might be embedded in expanded metal lath.

That picture is deceiving. I think you are seeing the wood lath nailed directly to the top plate with the plaster over the top.

Every original wall in this house is 100% wood lath (I've done enough Reno now that I've seen all of them). No panels or rock lath or gypsum boards of any kind.

JUGHNE

Your rads look too "modern" for 1915 IMO.
Steamhead can tell you.

Yes, I saw that lath that was cut with a saw and the edge looks like rock lath, blue board etc. with plaster on it.

ethicalpaul

Gary Smith said:

Check with your towns historical society I bet they can nail it to within a year or two. I’m guessing 1926-1928. I live in a house in the next town from you, Montclair, and my house with very similar features was built in 1926. Lathe and plaster walls, coal fired steam heat, mix of knob and tube and box, and layer Romeo wiring, galvanized water piping, cast iron sewage, but we have poured concrete basement walls. Most houses like yours in this area were built in “developments” by the same builder who probably built 10-30 houses all in a block or two. There was a terrific amount of housing built in this area in the mid to late 1920,s. I say 1928, check your deed as Jugne said or check the historical society.

Thanks Neighbor!! I love so many homes in Montclair. Mine though is a one-off. I think it's one of the oldest on my street (despite being such a small house on a narrow lot). I can't find anything like it in any towns around here. There are some bungalows that are similar but nothing that looks like this one (have a look at the picture and see if you agree).

I don't even know what to call it. I've looked at a lot of architecture example photos and the closest I can come is "Cross Gable". I should include a photo of the attic, it's pretty interesting. No rafters, fully open.

The big boom here in Cedar Grove seems to be in the Cape Cod style (probably in the 40s?). I see block after block of identical examples of those.

ethicalpaul

I had a look through my closing paperwork. According to my survey I had done, there is a map page on file for this property showing the home filed in 1913!

But elsewhere in the closing paperwork, the home is said to have been built in 1915 (This explains why I could never remember if it was 1913 or 1915...I had seen both and forgotten)

So now I'm really curious about perhaps there was a fire and the home was rebuilt from scratch in 1926 as I think @JUGHNE asked about earlier. I will report back after I can get to the municipal building.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

"I think it's one of the oldest on my street (despite being such a small house on a narrow lot). "

My house is on narrow lot as well. Built in 1921 by a Swedish shipwright who purchased the entire block. It was originally laid out for 10 lots on this side of the street, but he squeezed in 11. Wish I had more room : (

ethicalpaul

When I get a look at the records for my block, I will try to see how my lot ended up like it did. I suspect a similar situation of "the real-estate baron's children have no yard" LOL

Steamhead

ethicalpaul said:

I think these are original. They are large and in the Dining Room and Kitchen.

American Corto rads. 1926 at the earliest.

Now- they might be newer than the house. Very often, at least around here, houses were built with floor furnaces or gravity ducted hot-air systems to keep the initial price down, and upgraded to radiators later. Look for old ducts going up into the walls, or square or rectangular patches in the floors. In the case of a floor furnace, you'd find a 3-4' square patch in a central first-floor room.

JUGHNE

If not original rads the previous one may have left foot prints.

mattmia2

Steamhead said:

Now- they might be newer than the house. Very often, at least around here, houses were built with floor furnaces or gravity ducted hot-air systems to keep the initial price down, and upgraded to radiators later. Look for old ducts going up into the walls, or square or rectangular patches in the floors. In the case of a floor furnace, you'd find a 3-4' square patch in a central first-floor room.

My house was built in 1924 and has a patched hole in the dining room floor that was from a floor furnace and a huge patched breach in the chimney in the basement in that direction from its vent.

ethicalpaul

A boiler appears on my blueprints and there are no holes in my floors other than steam pipe holes (many of which were patched because at some point they put the 2nd floor risers into the wall). I am quite sure it was steam from day 1.

ethicalpaul

JUGHNE said:

If not original rads the previous one may have left foot prints.

I do have footprints in the dining room because they moved the location of that radiator at some point. But those are probably hard to date

Steamhead

ethicalpaul said:

JUGHNE said:

If not original rads the previous one may have left foot prints.

I do have footprints in the dining room because they moved the location of that radiator at some point. But those are probably hard to date

That might explain the Corto. What other rads are there?

Fred

Oddly enough, the house design looks like 30's to 40's but the electric boxes are early 1900's to 1920's vintage. Were portions of this house additions or modernizations, like that large front dormer?

ethicalpaul

Fred said:

Oddly enough, the house design looks like 30's to 40's but the electric boxes are early 1900's to 1920's vintage. Were portions of this house additions or modernizations, like that large front dormer?

I don't think so. The house as it sits pretty much matches the blueprints that can be seen earlier in this thread. I guess it's possible the blueprints could be from later than 1926 but I can't figure the reasoning behind that. And the writing on the blueprints looks pretty old (or I guess it could have just been from an old draftsman LOL)

ethicalpaul

Here's the remaining first floor one, in a bedroom/office:



This is in the front upstairs (dormer) bedroom:



Here's a closeup of the logo that appears on the plug:



The other two upstairs bedrooms have these:


There was a big one in the living room that developed a leak in a section so I scrapped it. I can't seem to find a picture of it but will post it if I find it. Thanks!!

Steamhead

ethicalpaul said:

Here's the remaining first floor one, in a bedroom/office:



This is in the front upstairs (dormer) bedroom:



Here's a closeup of the logo that appears on the plug:



The other two upstairs bedrooms have these:


There was a big one in the living room that developed a leak in a section so I scrapped it. I can't seem to find a picture of it but will post it if I find it. Thanks!!

Makes sense. Those second-floor rads are American Peerless, which were made from the late 1800s to 1925. So they would be original to the house. The logo on the plug is A.R.Co.

The first floor was probably remodeled at some point and that's when the Cortos were installed.

mattmia2

Fred said:

Oddly enough, the house design looks like 30's to 40's but the electric boxes are early 1900's to 1920's vintage. Were portions of this house additions or modernizations, like that large front dormer?

I was actually thinking that porch and roofline looks more arts and crafts which would bring it more in the 1905-1920 range but that wiring is definitely newer than that. That porch has had the railings enclosed at some point.

Solid_Fuel_Man

BX with cloth insulation (basically K&T inside a steel jacket) would date to around 1928-1935. Later BX (1935-WWII) generally has better insulation, kind of a rubbery plastic from what I've seen.

I've seen a few 1930s houses still wired with K&T but that was the old dudes not giving up what they knew/liked. BX on the other hand wasnt available until later, but what you have is early BX.

Please dont use the jacket as a ground conductor! Best to pull new Romex or MC if you like metal jacket. Second best us to use GFCI as receptacles in place of a grounding conductor.

Do you have centrally located white porcelain fuse holders, or a scattering of fuses throughout the house behind little "doors"?

House I grew up in was built in 1922 and was exclusively K&T, was ornate, maple throughout, and had gravity hot air.

mattmia2

If I remember right, type T (thermoplastic) wire was added to the nec in 1947 and some of the interim updates during wwii. Rubber insulate wire usually needed to have cloth over the outside to help protect and hold the rubber together. The wire was always tinned with rubber insulation because the the rubber would bond to the raw copper.

ethicalpaul

Thanks guys. I have no fuse holders, I have a breaker box that was an old Cutler Hammer when I moved in and I have since replaced it. It appears to me that all the original BX came to this one point in the basement.

I am pulling new Romex as expeditiously as possible. The BX that I have is two conductors with (now) very brittle insulation material, with those surrounded by woven fabric.

I agree the place looks arts and crafts. I agree the porch railing was open at one point. I'm curious to know what the original columns were.

ethicalpaul

Here's the last radiator that came with the house (living room), the one that developed the section leak. It was BIG

ethicalpaul

Steamhead said:

Makes sense. Those second-floor rads are American Peerless, which were made from the late 1800s to 1925. So they would be original to the house. The logo on the plug is A.R.Co.

The first floor was probably remodeled at some point and that's when the Cortos were installed.

Thanks @Steamhead! But why would they replace those radiators during a remodel? It's not like one style is more beautiful than the other...in fact I like the rounded ones more, although others may disagree.

Maybe they developed leaks like the living room one I replaced?

ethicalpaul

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

BX with cloth insulation (basically K&T inside a steel jacket) would date to around 1928-1935. Later BX (1935-WWII) generally has better insulation, kind of a rubbery plastic from what I've seen.



I've seen a few 1930s houses still wired with K&T but that was the old dudes not giving up what they knew/liked. BX on the other hand wasnt available until later, but what you have is early BX.

Thanks @Solid_Fuel_Man! We can lower the date of early BX to at least January 1923 however because of the existence (with patent date) of those cast iron (or steel?) fixtures from earlier in the thread. They have set screws and holes sized for BX.