Water pressure

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

The town or city usually adopts a code; seldom do they come up with one of their own.

Back in the 80's, San Francisco amended certain sections of the UPC (air chambers at fixture stub-outs on water lines, poured lead tie-ins on cast iron drain pipe, no plastic drainage pipe, mercury test on new gas lines, drip legs on any horizontal to vertical change of direction on gas pipe, etc.), but the state made them ease up.

Can you speak to the local inspector?

ChrisJ

> @Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:
> The town or city usually adopts a code; seldom do they come up with one of their own.
>
> Back in the 80's, San Francisco amended certain sections of the UPC (air chambers at fixture stub-outs on water lines, poured lead tie-ins on cast iron drain pipe, no plastic drainage pipe, mercury test on new gas lines, drip legs on any horizontal to vertical change of direction on gas pipe, etc.), but the state made them ease up.
>
> Can you speak to the local inspector?

Absolutely.
But the first time we talked unless I misunderstood he said to call the water co to see what they wanted. I'll be calling them again in the morning.

Fred

Are you replacing the water line from the street to the house? If so, why not tell your plumber you want a PRV or regulating valve installed and an inspection and sign off by the state/city or county (whichever one does your water inspections) and let that plumber do the leg work to figure out what is required? If you plan to do it yourself, are you going to trench from the curb to the house and through the basement wall? That is a tall order. You will not be able to use the old pipe to pull the new one in. It is just not likely you will get it to pull out after 50 or 100 years. If you even get it to move, it will likely break somewhere in the ground and you are stuck anyway. If you intend to use the old pipe as a "conduit" of sorts, forget that too. Those old pipes have so much corrosion/mineral deposits in them they are at least 3/4's blocked. I had mine done two or three years ago, the plumbing company totally abandoned the old pipe, used a hammer type snake from the basement out to the curb, no trenching just a hole at the curb shut off where they could disconnect the old pipe and connect the new line. Once they got a channel out to the edge of my yard, they turned the hammer around, attached the new PEX and ran it back into the basement. PEX was used from the new meter, at the edge of my yard into the house and our code required copper from the curb to the meter. They installed a fiberglass Hand hole at the edge of the yard and moved the meter out of the basement and into that hand-hole so the copper run was only about 15 ft. Our code requires all new lines/service into a house to have the meter outside. No longer allow meters to remain in the basement. They installed two shut-offs s (one on each side of the meter that allows them to isolate and change out the meter. The distance from my meter to my basement connection is about 50 feet (plus the 15 ft. of copper from the curb to the new meter. The entire job took about 6 hours from dig to fill and grade. They went from the curb shut-off to the new meter under the sidewalk again using the hammer snake. Oddly enough the meter sits just a foot below ground level and they said it will not freeze, in that hand hole. I doubted that but so far it has not and they do them all that way now. Long winded post but just trying to make sure you know what is involved.

ChrisJ

> @Fred said:
> Are you replacing the water line from the street to the house? If so, why not tell your plumber you want a PRV or regulating valve installed and an inspection and sign off by the state/city or county (whichever one does your water inspections) and let that plumber do the leg work to figure out what is required? If you plan to do it yourself, are you going to trench from the curb to the house and through the basement wall? That is a tall order. You will not be able to use the old pipe to pull the new one in. It is just not likely you will get it to pull out after 50 or 100 years. If you even get it to move, it will likely break somewhere in the ground and you are stuck anyway. If you intend to use the old pipe as a "conduit" of sorts, forget that too. Those old pipes have so much corrosion/mineral deposits in them they are at least 3/4's blocked. I had mine done two or three years ago, the plumbing company totally abandoned the old pipe, used a hammer type snake from the basement out to the curb, no trenching just a hole at the curb shut off where they could disconnect the old pipe and connect the new line. Once they got a channel out to the edge of my yard, they turned the hammer around, attached the new PEX and ran it back into the basement. PEX was used from the new meter, at the edge of my yard into the house and our code required copper from the curb to the meter. They installed a fiberglass Hand hole at the edge of the yard and moved the meter out of the basement and into that hand-hole so the copper run was only about 15 ft. Our code requires all new lines/service into a house to have the meter outside. No longer allow meters to remain in the basement. They installed two shut-offs s (one on each side of the meter that allows them to isolate and change out the meter. The distance from my meter to my basement connection is about 50 feet (plus the 15 ft. of copper from the curb to the new meter. The entire job took about 6 hours from dig to fill and grade. They went from the curb shut-off to the new meter under the sidewalk again using the hammer snake. Oddly enough the meter sits just a foot below ground level and they said it will not freeze, in that hand hole. I doubted that but so far it has not and they do them all that way now. Long winded post but just trying to make sure you know what is involved.

They ran pex underground without sand?

I wasn't planning on trenching through the basement wall. You're right that is a tall order.

clammy

On water services no backflow required only on lawn sprinkler line . Prv is not required by code as far as I know but if you have high pressure I would think wise as most fluidmaster are only rated for 65 to 75 max pressure and most of the depo type faucets are rated about the same . I believe a standard is 65 to 75 psi anything over is not necessary unless your house is completely piped in 1/2 . I usually advise when changing tub shower diverters to use pressure balance type especially if you have a pressure reducing valve I believe the prv increases the the chance of scolding . As for copper tubing there’s only a few areas where they wanted k copper instead of the standard L and that was like 25 years ago in hill folk country . Peace and good luck clammy

hot_rod

Usually the State. Here in Missouri we use UPC, the local city of Springfield has a few addendums they added.
In the small rural towns, no code is enforced.

Does your town have a building department, that is where you might start. Usually the town website has that info.

ChrisJ

I just found out from the water company's local office via email that I do NOT require a BFP. So, that's fantastic news.

Also, @Fred

Intplm.

ChrisJ said:

> @hot_rod said:

> What code are you under? UPC? You can find sections online, or buy the entire code book.



I'm looking for the local codes specific to my area. Would the town provide them even though we use state inspectors? Or would the building department for the state?

It depends as to where you hail from.
For instance. In the state of Connecticut , the department of public health dictates what type of bfp is needed.

-A- health department should be able to tell you if you require a low hazard or high hazard bfp.
For example......If the bfp will be installed below or even with a potable water supply it would be considered a high hazard bfp installation. So a Febco model 825 series bfp would be the requirement. If Above a potable supply then a low hazard Febco 765 series bfp requirement would be called for.

The brand names are just an example. There are equivalent type bfp that can also be used.
If you are installing this at your water main and it is low, or below any potable water discharge points then the installation would be considered high hazard requiring a Febco model 825 series.

Check your department of public health. They should have all the info that you need.

Intplm.

ChrisJ said:

I just found out from the water company's local office via email that I do NOT require a BFP. So, that's fantastic news.

Also, @Fred

Wow ! Hey thats terrific. Best of luck. I was typing my post while you typed the above ^^^^^^^^^....Good. You dont need one.

Fred

@ChrisJ said: "They ran pex underground without sand?"
Yep they did. I haven't seen them use sand anywhere in the area.
I wasn't suggesting you not try, just wanted you to know what you are about to undertake. If you're up to it, at least you are informed.
It's always a trade off of Time or money. Material costs won't change significantly regardless of who does the job so you have to make the call on if saving the labor cost is worth it,

ChrisJ

I cobbled together some stuff I had laying around because I didn't trust the $14 gauge.

@Steamhead or @Gordo any idea how old this gauge is? It was in my neighbors basement when we redid their plumbing.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

I like the gauge, but does it work? Looks like it's not attached to any piping.

ChrisJ

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:

I like the gauge, but does it work? Looks like it's not attached to any piping.

I was holding it in my hand with a washing machine hose attached to the outside sillcock.

ChrisJ

Good stuff ready to install soon.

Intplm.

@ChrisJ Your gonna like the Caleffi a lot. Good choice.

ChrisJ

@hot_rod
The Calefii talks about low flow being an issue for a PRV.

What exactly happens when you want to run just a single sink slowly? Will it destroy the PRV over time? Say 0.25 or 0.5 GPM on a PRV rated for 7+ GPM. My interpretation was it'll tolerate it, but it will increase wear.

I've ordered a new Fluidmaster fill valve to replace my beautiful all brass ballcock because I'm betting it's gentle, slow behavior is going to be an issue in the long run. It takes a pretty long time to finish filling near the end when it's almost closed from the pressure of the float.

hot_rod

ChrisJ said:

@hot_rod
The Calefii talks about low flow being an issue for a PRV.

What exactly happens when you want to run just a single sink slowly? Will it destroy the PRV over time? Say 0.25 or 0.5 GPM on a PRV rated for 7+ GPM. My interpretation was it'll tolerate it, but it will increase wear.

I've ordered a new Fluidmaster fill valve to replace my beautiful all brass ballcock because I'm betting it's gentle, slow behavior is going to be an issue in the long run. It takes a pretty long time to finish filling near the end when it's almost closed from the pressure of the float.

You will be fine with occasional low draws, it's mainly on large sizes, like 2" that see constant small draws. It's better to add a small reg in parallel for those applications.

Jamie Hall

What will happen depends a lot on the valve, and I'm not familiar enough with the Caleffi to know. @hot_rod probably would. The two possibilities are simply increased wear, and perhaps not even that much of that if the valve is really designed for throttling at very low flows. The other, though, would be a nuisance: at very low flow the valve opening might easily oscillate between not open enough and open too much. Splurk splurk splurk… and might not last long at all.

ChrisJ

Thank you both @Jamie Hall and @hot_rod for responding.

I suppose my last curiosity is how well do they handle being set close to the incoming pressure.

For example let's say the incoming pressure is normally 90 psi but drops to 79 psi under heavy flow. Will I be ok set at 80 psi? Would it simply go wide open and you get what you get? Or would things get funky.

If not would a static setting of 75 do?

Tonight the shower was going and I flushed a toilet. 80 psi at the meter with just the shower, it dropped to around 38 psi when I flushed the toilet. I hope the new copper line does a bit better..... Id be plenty happy with 60 psi if it was fairly steady. Not dropping to less than half because a toilet flushed.

Jamie Hall

Nothing like flushing a toilet to get the water pressure to drop... really fun if you are in the shower (no fancy pressure balance single handle whizbangs in this house!) and someone does that... yee ha! The new line should do better -- but most of that drop is in the house, not from the street, usually.

Cedric's home is on a well, of course; pressure in the basement set for a cutin of 40 psi and cutout of 60. Ample. I would think you could set your PRV for 60 and live happily.

ChrisJ

> @Jamie Hall said:
> Nothing like flushing a toilet to get the water pressure to drop... really fun if you are in the shower (no fancy pressure balance single handle whizbangs in this house!) and someone does that... yee ha! The new line should do better -- but most of that drop is in the house, not from the street, usually.
>
> Cedric's home is on a well, of course; pressure in the basement set for a cutin of 40 psi and cutout of 60. Ample. I would think you could set your PRV for 60 and live happily.


That 42 psi drop is right at the water meter. I did 90% of the piping after that and it's more than ample.

hot_rod

45- 60 psi should be plenty for a residence, as long as you don't take a big pressure drop at max. flow rates.

Add up what a maximum flow could be and look at the fall-off pressure at that gpm flow. The Caleffi PRVs has the lowest fall-off of most any prv. 7.5 psi drop is a common fall of pressure at max flow.

ChrisJ

hot_rod said:

45- 60 psi should be plenty for a residence, as long as you don't take a big pressure drop at max. flow rates.

Add up what a maximum flow could be and look at the fall-off pressure at that gpm flow. The Caleffi PRVs has the lowest fall-off of most any prv. 7.5 psi drop is a common fall of pressure at max flow.

In theory, could the Calefii PRV be used as a high limit, so to speak? Would it do anything weird or simply go wide open when the incoming pressure matches the outgoing setting?

I agree on the pressure, my parent's well runs 20-40 PSI and I never had a problem with it. At my house it's the huge changes due to the incoming line that stink.

ChrisJ

hot_rod said:

45- 60 psi should be plenty for a residence, as long as you don't take a big pressure drop at max. flow rates.

Add up what a maximum flow could be and look at the fall-off pressure at that gpm flow. The Caleffi PRVs has the lowest fall-off of most any prv. 7.5 psi drop is a common fall of pressure at max flow.

I forgot to mention.
Water pressure is a lot like boost..........more is always better until something goes bang!

hot_rod

Well the PRV cannot mitigate the lack of flow capacity in your main.
Yes I suppose it could be considered a limiting device, the set point is the max. allowed pressure.

This is how a large flow is handled, when there is potential for small flows on a consistent basis. The pressures need to be "staged" so the valves get along with one another.

I've never seen the need to do this on a typical residential application, depending on your definition of typical

From a Zurn installation sheet.

Larry Weingarten

Hi, This is just a band-aid, but throttling down the fill rate of the toilet/s will reduce their impact on other fixtures and likely won't be a noticeable inconvenience.

Yours, Larry

ChrisJ

Have some of the yard dug up, getting under the porch is rough.

We're going to make this cone up and I'm going to try driving it under the stone wall in the basement and hopefully come out in the trench that's dug along side the old pipe. I've got roughly 8.5-9 feet I need to go.




If this works, I'll slide a 1.25" PVC pipe in so the 3/4" soft K copper pipe will be easy to run.

ratio

Is it stony ground? I've thought about getting one of these a number of times. Looks like it'd work pretty well, & with the adapter to use a standard wet core bit (Chinesium ones are in the $25-45 range!), even the hole through the foundation shouldn't be too bad.

ChrisJ

> @ratio said:
> Is it stony ground? I've thought about getting one of these a number of times. Looks like it'd work pretty well, & with the adapter to use a standard wet core bit (Chinesium ones are in the $25-45 range!), even the hole through the foundation shouldn't be too bad.

Sometimes it's stoney, sometimes it's not. Hard to say.

That being said, I want to know how it goes when you try to use that to go through a field stone foundation. "Shouldn't be too bad" doesn't seem accurate.

ratio

I was thinking of a block foundation, true, but a wet core drill is an amazing thing. If you can make a bracket to securely hold it until the bit is well and started (a real issue with field stone, to be sure), it should make a good hole.

I drilled a new penetration for my dryer vent by laying one of these on its side, propped up by my plastic garden hose reel. It was pucker-inducing until I figured out how fast to feed it so it wouldn't bind up.

Jellis

With water pressure that high you are putting more stress on your fixtures and appliances possibly causing them to fail prematurely.
I would certainly have it on my list of things to do if it were my home.

dopey27177

Whether you change the water main or not you need a pressure reducing valve, as far as the BFP goes if installed you need to install it outside of the house because if it unloads it will dump 80% of the rate, something you do not need in your basement. This leads to a small problem. You need to box out the exposed piping and heat trace the valve and piping to prevent the piping and valve from freezing.

Jake

ChrisJ

> @dopey27177 said:
> Whether you change the water main or not you need a pressure reducing valve, as far as the BFP goes if installed you need to install it outside of the house because if it unloads it will dump 80% of the rate, something you do not need in your basement. This leads to a small problem. You need to box out the exposed piping and heat trace the valve and piping to prevent the piping and valve from freezing.
>
> Jake

The BFPs I've seen installed here including ones at my job have an air gap and then a drain to the outside. I've never seen one outside?

Jamie Hall

Not sure where @dopey27177 is coming from, @ChrisJ . Perhaps a misunderstanding. The backflow preventer -- whether RPZ or not, will, if it somehow fails catastrophically, might release a goodly amount of water. But -- they rarely fail catastrophically. I've never heard of one doing it. And, in a cold climate (such as ours) they have to be inside -- if only so they can be monitored.

A pressure reducing valve also needs to be inside, but it if fails the worst that happens is that it either doesn't reduce the pressure at all -- or reduces it to close to zero. No problem, either way, since -- of course -- you have a pressure relief valve on at least the water heater. Which goes to a drain somewhere...

Intplm.

BFP are installed indoors, out doors and in pits. All have different different purposes . They all are required to be installed with proper code requirements and local health code requirements.

EBEBRATT-Ed

US Gauge is still in business. Don't know how old it is

Jamie Hall

Northern point of view, I guess. But... if an RPZ backflow preventer I(or other vented type) s installed in a pit, how do you guarantee that the vent will never get flooded? I'm open to suggestion, but I would have taken some major convincing, back in the day. And outside? How do you protect it from freezing? Please don't tell me heat tape. I won't buy it.

hot_rod

Many types of BFD devices. They are selected based on hazard level. Landscaping lawn sprinklers have a high hazard BFD for obvious reasons, same with industrial applications, a chemical plant for example.

In the area I worked this meter yoke in a pit in the front yard had a sealed ASSE 1024, low hazard for residential use.

If the home had a boiler with glycol,a dual check with vent was required at the boiler in addition to the meter BFD.

Still other areas may require testable BFDs on boilers.
And in some areas an unvented dual check is adequate for boilers.

Intplm.

Jamie Hall said:

Northern point of view, I guess. But... if an RPZ backflow preventer I(or other vented type) s installed in a pit, how do you guarantee that the vent will never get flooded? I'm open to suggestion, but I would have taken some major convincing, back in the day. And outside? How do you protect it from freezing? Please don't tell me heat tape. I won't buy it.

This requires a pump.
I have seen bfp pits over flow some six feet due to the bfp relief stuck in discharge, and the pump float gets stuck or the pump fails one way or another.
So, I too am not a fan of this arrangement.
I had this happen in my old stomping grounds of Ct.

ChrisJ

So it's pretty much done.
I have the PRV set to around 60 psi and I have the precharge in the expansion tank set the same. Incoming pressure is steady at 88 psi and flushing a toilet didn't drop it.

From my other thread I decided last night I'm going to run a wire from just after the PRV to the incoming soft copper line. This is mainly for swapping the prv. I have a ground rod as well but I don't need any accidents or issues.

The original pipe was in really bad shape. Both inside being clogged as well as it being very thin and brittle in spots. Hitting it with a 20oz hammer took chunks out. I've seen pictures of worse but you could barely see light through the pipe.