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--> Need a Steam oil boiler with AFUE ≥ 87% -15k loan .99% APR, 10 years to pay back. Could you?<--

LS123
LS123 Member Posts: 456
edited March 2020 in THE MAIN WALL

Hello All,

In a nutshell --> I need to find oil fired steam Boiler with AFUE ≥ 87.00% (this number must be in Manufacturer product specification documentation)

This would be my second post for seeking your help.

My first post was March 25th, Titled: "From Steam to hot water radiators with zoning and new furnace, 70 year old boiler AL-PEX-AL" I was able to make a decision based on feed back in two days.

I want to thanks again @JamieHall, @Steamhead, @HVACNUT, for helping me understand that how valuable for me too keep the Steam radiator heating system, instead of converting to hot water radiator system. Without their feed back, I would have made terrible and very costly mistake of trying to convert from steam to hot water heating system.

I intend to consult with @Charlie from wmass (Charles Garrity) to get old oil steam heating system updated to new oil fired steam boiler system.

While I am waiting to get hold of @Charlie next week, I need your help.

I live in Connecticut, North West. Connecticut has rebates, and low financing 0.99% (APR) for using energy efficient products, max loan $15,000 with 5% down up to 10 years to pay back.

This is a SWEET DEAL that I don't want to miss out on..!

Its called EnrgizeCT (https://www.energizect.com/) There are certain condition one must meet to qualify for the loan. There are 3 conditions, I already meet two of them.

I need your help to meet the third condition. I don't want to use gas, propane. I like to stick to oil, because where I live at you would have to have a huge underground gas tank, there is no city water or gas lines on my side of the town.

So the third condition is to find a oil fired, Steam boiler that must be AFUE ≥ 87.00% efficient.

I looked and looked for about a day and half on the web, but could not find any steam oil boiler that meet 87% efficiency.

So far I have been able to find Max oil steam boiler efficiency is 86% (this including Mega Steam ( US Boiler Co), Intrepid Steam (Slant Fin) etc.

If anyone has any info on a steam oil boiler, please let me know.

Thank you!
\-LS
Thank you!
@LS123
«1

Comments

  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,216
    Non I have heard of.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
    LS123kcopp
  • LS123
    LS123 Member Posts: 456
    Thank you!
    @LS123
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 2,880
    edited March 2020

    Non I have heard of.

    Wonder how they came up with 87%?
    LS123
  • LS123
    LS123 Member Posts: 456
    Good morning pecmsg. I don't know how they came up with that number. I will probably would have to write to the CT Energize board and ask them to review and ask them to find me a steam oil burner at 87% efficiency or ask them to accept what is max available efficiency steam oil burners at AFUE 86% currently available to the consumers.
    Thank you!
    @LS123
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 2,880
    87% is for HW systems, they may have a different # for Steam

    The sad part is the #'s are like MPG only under ideal conditions.
    LS123kcopp
  • LS123
    LS123 Member Posts: 456
    I am pretty sure there is only one option there is, it state oil boiler 87% (it did not specify hot water or steam, it only state Oil boiler, there is only one option for oil boiler, same for Nat Gas boilers, there is only one section.
    Thank you!
    @LS123
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,687
    Not that it's a real number, but I bet with a properly tuned MegaSteam, you could get your analyzer to read 87+%.
    steve
    HVACNUTLS123
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 11,987
    Probably have to go HW to meet 87%. If you down fire a stem boiler you could get 87 but if it's not in there lit it won't help
    LS123
  • LS123
    LS123 Member Posts: 456
    SteveusaPA, yes I agree that Mega Steam could reach higher efficiency. But for me to qualify for this deal I must meet their requirements. I already meet two out of three. I just cant find 87% efficiency on a steam boiler. Best I been able to find including Mega Steam is 86%. Please see below.

    https://ctheatloan.com/
    ---------------------------------------------------
    ENERGY STAR® Rated and other Qualifying Improvements
    Meets or exceeds specifications listed below as verified by

    1) AHRI certificate or 2)Manufacturer product specification documentation

    Oil Boilers
    AFUE ≥ 87.00%
    Oil Furnaces
    AFUE ≥ 85.00%
    Natural Gas or Propane Boiler
    AFUE ≥ 90.00%
    Natural Gas or Propane Furnace
    AFUE ≥ 95.00%
    Natural Gas Steam Boiler
    AFUE ≥ 82.00%
    Air Source Heat Pumps
    SEER ≥ 16.00, EER ≥ 12.50, HSPF ≥ 10.00 for Split Systems
    SEER ≥ 16.00, EER ≥ 12.00, HSPF ≥ 10.00 for Packaged Systems
    Geothermal Heat Pumps
    Closed Loop Water to Air EER ≥ 17.1, COP ≥ 3.6
    Closed Loop Water to Water EER ≥ 16.1, COP ≥ 3.1
    Direct Expansion Refrigerant EER ≥ 16, COP ≥ 3.6
    AHRI Rated Ductless Heating and Cooling System of Matched Assembly*
    Single indoor unit SEER ≥ 20.0, EER ≥ 12.5, HSPF ≥ 10
    Multiple indoor unit SEER ≥ 18.0, EER ≥ 12.5, HSPF ≥ 9
    Propane Tanks (purchase only)

    *Multi-zone indoor unit ductless systems with only 1 outdoor condenser unit are not subject to the 12 EER requirement.
    Thank you!
    @LS123
  • LS123
    LS123 Member Posts: 456
    EBEBRATT-Ed,

    Yes there are some hot water boilers reach over 87%. But I am staying with Steam. I thought at a such a good rate 0.99% APR for max 10 years. Plus oil bill saving from a new steam boiler, with in 3 to 4 years loan would be paid easily.

    I am going to write to the enrgize ct and ct heat loan to show me a list or at lease one steam oil boiler that is at 87% AFUE.

    Thank you all. I will post the results of my communications with them when they get back to me....

    Best!
    Thank you!
    @LS123
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,590
    Contact EnergizeCT.

    If there is one downfall for steam heat, it's that it's not considered "high efficiency".

    There might be an *asterisk* in their wording concerning steam boilers. It could be a lower rebate, or no rebate at all.

    Using AFUE as a guide should be abolished IMO anyway. It's antiquated and doesn't take system design or controls into account. The rating was originally based on the warm air furnace. At the end of a furnace cycle, after the burner shuts off, the fan will continue to run to expell the remaining heat into the space so when the furnace shuts off there is minimal heat energy wasted. Otherwise standby losses go right up the chimney.

    Is EnergizeCT familiar with the Fields Controls motorized Flue Damper? When the cycle ends, the damper closes to keep the heat in the boiler thus reducing standby losses.

    I like the idea from @STEVEusaPA. Video the combustion test, print it and slam it down on someone's desk. "Where's my money? Gimme me money."

    Even on a mod con, you won't always reach the stated AFUE in the field. It depends on current conditions. Funny how the R&D bench test always hits their mark though.

    @Roger! Where's the steam boilers bro?
    LS123STEVEusaPA
  • LS123
    LS123 Member Posts: 456
    Hello HVACNUT! Good morning!

    As you might have noticed, I am a novice in this field.

    My specialty is good beer, wine, computer systems and entertain a nice ladies.

    But I am a quick learner, most of the time I google most of the terminology being used on heat helping.

    Unfortunately, I don't have a mega steam to do the test and give CT Energize the data etc.

    I have two choices; one ask them to provide me a list of steam oil boilers ( if they say no way... ) Two I will pay for upgrading the old steam boiler with a new one, plus do system enhancements.

    I just find the .99% APR irresistible.

    I do have couple of other questions, let google them first, if I can't find answers, I know where and who to find for the answers.

    Thank you!
    Thank you!
    @LS123
  • PerryHolzman
    PerryHolzman Member Posts: 234
    @LS123

    I've dealt with various government standard and have typically found that the boards that make the decisions are basing their decisions off of the input from one or two members... who write standards that their companies can meet, and not other companies who use different approaches.

    I've successfully fought against that in several ASME committees where one party wanted to strangle the rest of the industry in that area with their personal method in relations to certain forms of Non destructive analysis (I was - and still am - well enough known to most of the committee members of several ASME committees that my input matters when I decide to get involved; and I'd be on at least one ASME committee if I had the funding to attend the meetings and do the work).

    Unfortunately, the current board members likely do not even know where their current "87%" came from.

    In my opinion, you are likely to miss out on that energy loan.

    You might be able to get them to change the standard for the future in the next year or so. But, are unlikely to get a waiver.

    I wish you the best with your project.

    Perry
    LS123
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 18,907
    There are, unhappily, solid thermodynamic reasons why a steam boiler can't be rated as high as a hot water boiler without running a fairly high vacuum on the returns and a boiler feed pump and some very complex controls. Not that under some special conditions a steam boiler can't achieve higher numbers -- it just can't be done under the very arbitrary conditions set for the AFUE numbers, or realistic field conditions.

    Under those conditions a condensing hot water boiler can reach much higher numbers -- in the 90s. Not that those conditions apply in the field, mind you, but the bureaucrats love them.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    HVACNUT
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 15,329
    pecmsg said:

    Non I have heard of.

    Wonder how they came up with 87%?
    As others have said, because someone had a vested interest in selling certain types of equipment. This kind of corruption is all too common.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    LS123
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,536
    Massachusetts dropped steam boiler rebates years ago. The rebate people should’ve typed HW or something similar for clarity. Like many rebate entities, they know little about the work we do. But, by default, 87% means no steam.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
    LS123
  • LS123
    LS123 Member Posts: 456
    Hello @PerryHolzman,

    Thank you for the info, you are most likely correct about Steam Boiler may not be approved for .99% APR.

    I am also planing to have a wood burning stove efficiency about 86% with a catalyst burns up to 30 hours (4.4 cubic feet fire box) and covers about 3000 SQ. So I may not have to replace the old gigantic steam boiler this year or until CT energy change their mind and approve Steam oil fired boilers. They probably would [email protected]&t in their pants, if they saw my old steam burner and how many gallons of oil it uses and contributes to air pollution.

    I am going to try, if that wont work, I am going to pay for the upgrade myself.

    Best!
    \-LS
    Thank you!
    @LS123
  • LS123
    LS123 Member Posts: 456
    @Jamie Hall

    Yes, I agree with you about the performance difference between hot water and steam heater performance.

    In my case we are talking about 1% change. On the top of that CT Energy has not clarified on the site 87% for steam or hot water. All it says Oil Boiler has to be 87%, and the best Steam boiler like Mega Steam give 86%. If they advertise in such manner without clarification, I simply have to ask them to give me the Steam Oil boiler list they have that meets 87%. Well I suppose it will not hurt to try.

    Best,
    \-LS
    Thank you!
    @LS123
  • LS123
    LS123 Member Posts: 456
    I have a degree in Political Science, and Computer Science... I chose to work in the system management for global banks.

    Like couple of you mentioned, some of these decisions are made to favor certain people, political connections, contributions to elected officials etc.

    Its not helpful to me (not being able to get a steam boiler.) I am sure there are many more people like me that have outdated steam boilers that may need to upgrade.

    So if I have to go to capital building, reach out to local political leaders I just might do that.... but then again I may not be able to get what I am trying to get from CT Energy. going to try any ways :)
    Thank you!
    @LS123
  • LS123
    LS123 Member Posts: 456
    @GW,

    I had no idea why they do that Mass stopped doing that. It seems like CT Energy may not give me rebate or better ARP loan like @PerryHolzman mentioned earlier.

    Thank you!
    \-LS
    Thank you!
    @LS123
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,590
    Just checked the US Boiler I&O manual for the Mega Steam. The only OEM burner application I see is the Beckett AFG.

    I also see the Mega Steam is not listed in either my Riello or Carlin OEM spec guides. What's up with that US Boiler? Does Beckett have some dirt on you?
    No because even the NX doesn't seem to be an option. The AFG uses the L Head so it's not a static pressure issue. Hmmm.

    I bet Riello could get an additional 2% out of that fogger without batting an eyelash.
    LS123
  • LS123
    LS123 Member Posts: 456
    @HVACNUT,

    I have to show the CT Energize the manufacture's document stating the steam boiler + burner function at 87%.

    Only my ex-wife has dirt on me :) , Actually she is a good mother to our children....

    I found out how to contact the Energy Efficiency Board from Energize CT site.

    I plan to send them an email with picture of my old boiler, what I wouold like to have as a new boiler, that the difference is 1%. on the top of that if I were to convert to hot water its going to cost a lot...

    stay tuned, I will let you all know when they get back to me...

    Thank you all for providing me with info.

    Best!

    \-LS
    Thank you!
    @LS123
  • LS123
    LS123 Member Posts: 456
    Hello Everyone,

    I found a Steam boiler with 87% AFUE.

    By US Boiler Co Model Burnham (V8H) with upgrade kit make the model as V8H3WRD Oil Fired, Chimney Vented,Cast Iron Water or Steam Boiler.

    Now I can use your help to figure out how many BTU this V8H upgraded steam boiler would produce.

    Not sure if it will meet at least 80K and above BTU.

    SO looking forward to hearing back from you.

    Please see attached chart


    and two URL's below.

    Data Sheet URL
    https://file.ac/wWdTA6X6Sps/V8H Product Data Sheet.pdf

    Brochure below link and page 4 has V8H
    https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/PV8H4SC-HBUN-brochure.pdf

    Thank you all.

    \-LS

    Thank you!
    @LS123
  • Jon_blaney
    Jon_blaney Member Posts: 271
    Do you have experience with wood stoves? I had one with a catalyst and I hated it. Stove had to be running at a high temperature for it to function. Maybe ok for a few weeks of the year but most of the time it was overkill. Oh, those catalysts are not free.
    LS123
  • LS123
    LS123 Member Posts: 456
    Hi,
    I did a lot of research. I am planning to Regency F5200 model. Yes this stove is relatively new. It certainly is over sized. It is expensive but has 86% efficiency per documents. It has 10 year warranty on the catalyst, and a replacement one would be range of $400-$500. Where I live I could buy a cord of wood for about $200 to 250. This model has an indicator when to engage the Catalyst (it has to use double wall even in side the house because stove and exhaust can reach over 700 degrees F, and when Catalyst engaged it can produce heat up to 1000 degrees F. I watched a video, and like this model.
    How old is your stove? who is the manufacture? what model?
    Best!
    \-L
    Thank you!
    @LS123
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,536
    Never woulda thought. Must be one of them chimney damper kits
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
    LS123
  • Chris_L
    Chris_L Member Posts: 258
    The V8H can be used for hot water or steam. It looks to me like you only get to 87% efficiency with the upgrade kit when it is used for hot water.
    LS123
  • LS123
    LS123 Member Posts: 456
    @GW and @Chris_L,

    I tried to find out what is involved with upgrade kit, no luck so far what is consist of the upgrade kit.

    @Chris_L did you see the picture I attached. V8H has a different model name when use with the upgrade kit. I could not find anything on the documents from US Boiler Co (posted url) specifying 87% for hot water or steam. I took a wild guess thinking upgrade would apply to both hot water and steam.

    I am new to this, I will have to wait until Monday to speak with someone, anyone that might know more about V8H upgrade.

    By any chance would you know how many BTUs would produce at minimum settings (based on the picture attached)

    Thanks you both!
    \-LS
    Thank you!
    @LS123
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 2,880
    Don't waste a lot of time with this. Chances are you wont be qualified.
    LS123
  • LS123
    LS123 Member Posts: 456
    @ pecmsg,

    You and @Chris_L are probably correct. I am persistent, I suppose, there is not really much for me to lose.

    I did not know there was a offer (good APR) for upgrade heating system until this morning. I still would have bought a steam boiler recommend by a certified and licensed pro.

    For sure, since I became a member few days ago, I have learned a lot from everyone about boilers and etc.

    Thanks,
    \-LS
    Thank you!
    @LS123
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 15,329
    Chris_L said:

    The V8H can be used for hot water or steam. It looks to me like you only get to 87% efficiency with the upgrade kit when it is used for hot water.

    This. And, the V8 series has had some issues with leaks in the cast-iron sections. Don't waste your time with it- go with the MegaSteam.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    LS123
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,590
    Although I cant find info on exactly what the upgrade kit is, it only applies to water boilers. Not steam.
    It's for use with a Beckett or Carlin burner. Not Riello. I'm guessing combustion air kit but the burners come with covers so I haven't a clue.

    @LS123 ,this is too hard. Have you thought of converting to a water boiler?😝
    LS123
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 1,804
    why would a gas steamer only need to be 82%,
    (half way down that list)
    LS123 said:


    https://ctheatloan.com/
    ---------------------------------------------------
    ENERGY STAR® Rated and other Qualifying Improvements
    Meets or exceeds specifications listed below as verified by

    1) AHRI certificate or 2)Manufacturer product specification documentation

    Oil Boilers
    AFUE ≥ 87.00%
    Oil Furnaces
    AFUE ≥ 85.00%
    Natural Gas or Propane Boiler
    AFUE ≥ 90.00%
    Natural Gas or Propane Furnace
    AFUE ≥ 95.00%
    Natural Gas Steam Boiler
    AFUE ≥ 82.00%
    Air Source Heat Pumps
    SEER ≥ 16.00, EER ≥ 12.50, HSPF ≥ 10.00 for Split Systems
    SEER ≥ 16.00, EER ≥ 12.00, HSPF ≥ 10.00 for Packaged Systems
    Geothermal Heat.. . .

    known to beat dead horses
    LS123
  • LS123
    LS123 Member Posts: 456
    @Steamhead and @HVACNUT,

    Sounds like V8H not good and reliable. I really did like Mega Steam from the beginning.

    I might just focus on Mega Steam then.

    Thank you both, It sure help and I am pleased when I get feedback based on members of heating help.

    Best!
    \-LS
    Thank you!
    @LS123
  • LS123
    LS123 Member Posts: 456
    @neilc ,

    You are super observant. I did not go down the list beyond oil boiler.

    I went back on line to make sure I did not make a mistake when copy and paste.

    https://ctheatloan.com/

    Good question!! I will find out Monday why Gas boiler has significantly lower AFUE ≥ 82.00%

    Thanks SO much for pointing that out!
    Best!
    \-LS
    Thank you!
    @LS123
  • LS123
    LS123 Member Posts: 456
    @HVACNUT,

    "@LS123 ,this is too hard. Have you thought of converting to a water boiler?😝 "

    LOL, no still staying with Steam, you are one of the members who gave me good advice to stay with Steam... I am glad I found this site!

    I will convert to hot water heat, as long as you willing to do all the work free :smiley:

    May be not 100% free, that would impolite. I probably would give you a six pack of beer.

    \-LS
    Thank you!
    @LS123
  • bburd
    bburd Member Posts: 331
    edited March 2020
    Regarding the lower efficiency specification for gas fired steam boilers: in an application where heat cannot be recovered by condensing the water vapor in the flue gas (like a steam boiler), and other things being equal, the same boiler will have about 4% lower combustion efficiency when burning gas than when burning oil.

    This is due to the higher hydrogen content in the gas. The combustion products from gas contain a higher proportion of water vapor to carbon dioxide than those from burning oil, which is higher in carbon. The latent heat of evaporation in that extra water vapor goes up the chimney.

    Bburd
    LS123
  • LS123
    LS123 Member Posts: 456
    Good morning @bburd

    It sounds like little bit of chemistry involved.

    re: paragraph one --> Hydrocarbon gas mixture consisting methane, other higher alkanes, and carbon dioxide, nitrogen, hydrogen sulfide and helium. This explains flue gas and water vapors in condition with Gas when burning in general.

    So the way I understand your response, there is approximately 4% lower efficiency on a identical when gas boiler, compared to identical oil boiler.

    Conclusion: in identical burners with same capacity, heating oil burns hotter than natural gas (oli burners may contribute more to air pollution.)

    Oil boiler would be efficient in this case when compared to oil Vs. gas burning boilers.

    Perhaps there are more money and effort spent on making some gas based products to be efficient based on tech advances, and cleaner burning factors, availability etc.

    Based on what I had posted on earlier statistics (from CT energy site) CT Energy has the expectation of Oil burner to meet AFUE≥ 87.00% - ** I am guessing this number is ONLY for hot water boilers.)

    And Gas (Natural Gas Steam Boiler AFUE ≥ 82.00%) has lower expectation.

    Please note that the key difference is, wording for Gas boiler in this case is " Gas Steam Boiler" on the CT energy site.

    In this case CT Energy program is NOT comparing apples to apples. Its more like comparing apples to banana. :)

    Is my understanding correct?

    Thank you!
    \-LS
    Thank you!
    @LS123
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 2,880
    Who has the bigger lobbyist in Ct
    Keyspan Energy or the independent oil group?
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 18,907
    @bburd 's comments are essentially correct, and there is both chemistry and thermodynamics involved.

    Natural gas is almost entirely methane -- one carbon atom linked to four hydrogen atoms. When that burns, with adequate air supply, is one carbon dioxide molecule and two water molecules. They are all in vapour form initially. If you can lower the temperature of the exhaust gas stream enough, you can condense the water molecules, and that releases additional heat to whatever you are using to cool the gas. For fuel oil, it is reasonable to use pure decane as the oil (it isn't, but close enough for this paragraph anyway). That is ten carbon atoms linked to 22 hydrogen atoms. When that burns -- again, with enough air -- you get 10 carbon dioxide molecules and 11 water molecules. Again the water will condense if you can get it cool enough. But observe: with natural gas, you have roughly twice as many water molecules as carbon dioxide. With fuel oil, roughly the same number. Now the sensible heat released from combustion is related directly to the number of carbon dioxide and water molecules formed. The latent heat is related to the number of water molecules only. So... there is more latent heat available to increase efficiency from gas firing than from oil firing. Which fuel is more efficient, in the very restricted sense of sensible heat available vs. total heat available? Oil. Now if you can get the exhaust gas stream down to 100 F or so, you can recover most of the latent heat in the water vapour, and gas and oil will be about the same.

    LP gas -- a varying mix of 3 or 4 carbons and 8 or 10 hydrogens -- falls in between.

    There are other considerations...

    And will you see the potential numbers in your boiler in your house? Mostly, no.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    LS123
This discussion has been closed.