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Boiler Replacement

gokart01gokart01 Member Posts: 8
I recently had my boiler replaced with a Weil McLain EG -75. Any comments you can provide on the installation would be greatly appreciated.












Comments

  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Member Posts: 3,410
    And the pressuretrol needs to set as low as it can go. Diff at 1.
    gokart01mattmia2Intplm.Dan Foley
  • gokart01gokart01 Member Posts: 8
    It doesn't work great, a lot more hammer in the piping, uneven heating.

    Just to confirm you are referencing figure 18 in this manual?

    https://www.weil-mclain.com/sites/default/files/field-file/EG Boiler Manual.pdf
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 12,944
    HVACNUT said:

    And the pressuretrol needs to set as low as it can go. Diff at 1.

    A LOT lower. That's a Hoffman Differential Loop in one of the pictures. Assuming that it's still hooked into the system correctly -- a big assumption, given the rest of the piping -- the system simply won't work at cutout pressures over 6 to 7 ounces per square inch. This installation must have a vapourstat, no ifs ands or buts. And the vent above it -- which should be the only vent on the system -- is too small for a modern boiler. It needs to be replaced with at least one Gorton #2.

    And then... someone has to go out into the rest of the system and verify that a) there are no vents on it anywhere else, b) the crossover traps are working and c) all the radiator traps are working.
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
    gokart01mattmia2
  • GrallertGrallert Member Posts: 443
    What is it Dan would say? If you see something in a system that you don't understand? slowly back out of the cellar. Or words to that affect.
    The good news is it doesn't look too far gone. In other words it might not be that hard to remedy.
    gokart01
  • gokart01gokart01 Member Posts: 8
    In order to fix this, do I need to add a bigger vent, and pressuretrol? Or does the new piping need to be rerouted?
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 12,944
    Most of the near boiler piping needs to be redone, in accordance with the manufacturer's diagram -- or better. In particular, since you do have a Hoffman Differential Loop, it absolutely has to be piped correctly. All the dry returns come together and join and go into the top of the loop. There should be at least one Gorton #2 vent at that location. There needs to be a line from the boiler head to the right side inlet of the loop (looking at it from the label side). Then the pipe from the left side drops down to the wet return. It does look from the picture as though that piping is probably correct.

    There should be no other vents anywhere else in the system. None. However, there must be crossover traps at the ends of the steam mains going to the dry returns -- and it is essential that those be working correctly.

    To control the pressure in the system, you will need a vapourstat, not a pressuretrol. Honeywell L408J1009. For starters, set it at 7 ounces per square inch cutout, and a 4 ounce differential.
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
    gokart01Intplm.
  • PerryHolzmanPerryHolzman Member Posts: 127
    I know you just dropped a bundle for that boiler. To resolve your issues and get things working right... It might be best if you post your location (city, state); and perhaps one of the real steam experts on this site is close enough, or knows someone close enough, that can come in and "repipe" your system correctly with the correct controls and vents.

    Not sure how well the installation contractor will react... But, its your house and you have to live with how it works.

    Perry
  • gokart01gokart01 Member Posts: 8
    No problem.

    I am located in Springfield, Illinois
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Member Posts: 3,410
    > @PerryHolzman said:
    > I know you just dropped a bundle for that boiler. To resolve your issues and get things working right... It might be best if you post your location (city, state); and perhaps one of the real steam experts on this site is close enough, or knows someone close enough, that can come in and "repipe" your system correctly with the correct controls and vents.
    >
    > Not sure how well the installation contractor will react... But, its your house and you have to live with how it works.
    >
    > Perry

    Why pay twice? Hunt them down and make them do the job right. Ask if they can read and look at pictures in the actual manual. Or just in general. If they have an ounce of self respect, they'll make it right.
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 7,081
    @gokart01

    Yes page 17 & 18 which ever one of those diagrams fits your system. You could have parallel flow, counter flow or a combination of the two
  • gokart01gokart01 Member Posts: 8
    I appreciate all the comments. I talked to the contractor and they are going to install a new Gorton #2 vent as well as a Honeywell pressuretrol.

    In order to educate myself further, will you guys give me comments on whether or not the current piping is acceptable for both the hot water system, as well as the steam.

    Thank you again for all the assistance





  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 12,944
    VAPORSTAT, dang it. A pressuretrol simply won't do.
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
    gokart01ethicalpaulmattmia2
  • SteamheadSteamhead Member Posts: 13,863
    The vent on top of the Differential Loop looks like the original Hoffman #11. This is a huge vent but it's a vacuum type, which can cause water to be held up in the system. The Gorton #2 is a good replacement for this vent.

    @gokart01 , what you have is a Hoffman "Controlled Heat" Vapor system. Vapor was the Cadillac of heating back in the day, and is still one of the best out there.

    If you keep having issues, you just might be able to sweet-talk @The Steam Whisperer to come down from Chicagoland.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
    gokart01
  • gokart01gokart01 Member Posts: 8
    Sorry, I meant to say they are replacing the pressuretrol with a Vaporstat. Any comments you guys can provide on the piping?
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,618
    It's all in the installation manual. They never opened it.
    1 pipe Utica 112 in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
    HVACNUTGrallertEzzyT
  • nicholas bonham-carternicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,137
    To clarify, the supply piping is unacceptable, as it does not follow the requirements, and layout in the instruction manual. There may even be the need for both outlets from the boiler to be used, depending on its size. All this information will be found in the manual.
    It’s hard to see the return piping, but the Hoffman loop does need some special connection.
    How did they select the size of the boiler?—NBC
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Member Posts: 3,410
    > @ethicalpaul said:
    > It's all in the installation manual. They never opened it.

    I didn't know whether to click LOL, Agree, or Awesome. Obviously some need to click Insightful.
    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,618
    edited March 12
    I wasn't even trying to be snarky, but it came out that way. What I meant was just that it is clear that the installer doesn't care how the manufacturer says to do the piping and therefore doesn't care if his customers have a good result.

    To share what I have learned and see that is wrong with it (and there might be much more in this system that is messed up):

    - The steam supply of the proper size and count (1 or 2) should go up to a header (horizontal pipe) of the proper size, then riser(s) should come off the top of the header, then the header should turn down to the equalizer to meet up with the Hartford loop/boiler return. The order is important.

    This gives the steam a chance to separate from water that is thrown up into the steam supply pipe(s) due to the boiling action of the water.

    Your piping doesn't allow that separation and that may result in quite a bit of water being carried out of the near boiler piping and up to the mains. That can cause hammering and steam getting prematurely condensed/not continuing cleanly to your radiators.

    From Peerless:

    1 pipe Utica 112 in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
    Grallert
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 7,081
    I mentioned in the first post that the piping was all wrong. I mentioned in my second post what page of the install manual showed the correct piping.

    Others have mentioned it as well

    The op keeps coming back wanting to know what is wrong with the piping. Wishing it is right won't make it so.
    ethicalpaul
  • mattmia2mattmia2 Member Posts: 1,398
    I think they were also asking about the hot water loop for the indirect, if that was ok.
  • Dave0176Dave0176 Member Posts: 1,131
    edited March 13
    I installed an EG75 two summers ago, my piping however looked aaalot different. We used both 3” boiler tappings and ran them into a 4” drop header. With your home being a vapor system you should really have a large header and use both tappings to slow that steam to a crawl. As far as the indirect DHW, I would’ve ordered that boiler with a tankless coil provision To run the DHW water loop in a closed circuit.


    DL Mechanical LLC Heating, Cooling and Plumbing 732-266-5386
    NJ Master HVACR Lic# 4630
    Specializing in Steam Heating, Serving the residents of New Jersey
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc

    https://m.facebook.com/DL-Mechanical-LLC-315309995326627/?ref=content_filter

    I cannot force people to spend money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely.......
    BillyOSuperTechmattmia2
  • mattmia2mattmia2 Member Posts: 1,398
    I think the tankless coil is an option that can be added to make the indirect a closed loop(but it can work just fine as an open system as well, just might not last quite as long).
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 12,944
    Have we lost @gokart01 ?
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
    mattmia2
  • gokart01gokart01 Member Posts: 8
    Thank you for sharing all of your knowledge. I wish I would have spent some time on this site before I pulled the trigger on the replacement.

    I spent the last day or so polishing up my drawing skills so I could give the contractor a drawing of what needs to happen. While not to scale, I hope it gets the point across. Please feel free to chime in, if I missed something.

    Thanks again for all the help!!

  • gokart01gokart01 Member Posts: 8
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 12,944
    Nice drawing. Looks good to go.
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
    gokart01
  • SteamheadSteamhead Member Posts: 13,863

    Nice drawing. Looks good to go.

    This. And show them @Dave0176 's pics.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
    Hap_Hazzardgokart01
  • New England SteamWorksNew England SteamWorks Member Posts: 1,353
    Like this...


    New England SteamWorks
    Service, Installation, & Restoration of Steam Heating Systems
    newenglandsteamworks.com
    Hap_Hazzard
  • dopey27177dopey27177 Member Posts: 306
    I am retired 15 years spent 42 years in the business as an installer , trouble shooter and consultant. This is the most creative cross word puzzle I have ever seen. David076 shows a beautiful boiler installation.

    In my minds eye the drop header is overkill but it guarantees that he will never return to the site with an install problem.

    Jake
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