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The 1000 Gallon per DAY toilet ??........UPDATE......

JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 6,924
edited June 11 in THE MAIN WALL
Our water utility is installing new meters that show 2 decimal points and have WIFI reading capability.
More than one customer has gotten a surprise in their water bill.

A friend asked me to check out her friend's WC.
Water consumption was 30 to 35,000 gallons a month for a 21 year old kid and his aged grandma.
One WC has the water level set too high with water going down the overflow stand pipe in the tank.
Not passing enough water to be obviously heard.
Set that level lower and installed a new flapper.
2nd WC needed a new flapper also, it has the Fluidmaster fill valve which does give the audible warning.

Read the meter yesterday after repairs, the utility read the meter 4 days before.
4,641 gallons passed in those 4 days. This did not seem possible but the meter sets the rules in the game.
This was quite the eye opener as most of our old meters were not functioning and many were billed a minimum charge.

We still have cheap water as the 35,000 gallons cost $50.00 for the month......considerable money for the kid.

Comments

  • rick in Alaskarick in Alaska Member Posts: 1,082
    It's amazing how much water can go down a a toilet that is leaking by. And 4641 gallons in four days is still a heck of a lot. You might look at your meter to tell if water is running when you think it shouldn't be. On our meters, there is a little wheel that turns when water is being used. It takes very little flow to get it to move, so if it is moving, at least you know there is a leak somewhere. Is your meter outside at the curb? Maybe there is a leak underground.
    Also, consider yourself very lucky. That 35,000 gallons here would be over $1400.00
    Rick
    kcoppluketheplumber
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 6,924
    edited March 2
    Meter is in basement, no red indicator wheel on new hi tech, can listen with the screwdriver handle stuck in the ear with tip on pipe.
    The old meters had those. Quite sensitive, when pressurizing a new house you could see it spin and then reverse as the air pressure pushed water back.

    We are blessed more than we realize in NE being above the Ogallala aquifer. 30' to a fair well, 60' to good well, city wells are 200 to 400 deep.
  • STEVEusaPASTEVEusaPA Member Posts: 4,143
    If you don't have the little wheel, you can read the meter, then turn the water off at the meter.
    Wait a few hours, open the valve. If you hear water running (and the meter starts moving) you have a leak.
    Yes running toilets can waste a ton of water. Funny they'll never notify you of a potential problem. But if you fix all the leaks, and your usage goes down substantially, they sometimes want to come out and check the meter.
    Hopefully you're not in an area where the sewer rate is tied to water usage.
    steve
  • hot_rodhot_rod Member Posts: 13,318
    water meters are very inexpensive if you wanted to add a second "readable" one for checking.

    Could pay for itself :);

    I always suggest a meter on the cold supply to the hot water tank to get actual DHW usage.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
    JUGHNESolid_Fuel_Man
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 6,924
    Our utility has been running a notice in the local weekly newsletter for this very reason.
    Also being a very small town, they will call if this water consumption rises. Especially call a relative for some old folks who may not read their bill correctly.

    We have a fixed sewer rate for houses......all of $23.00 a month....garbage is more at $23.80 monthly.

    I do not have the new water meter yet, so my water charge is still fixed at $10.00 for the month.
  • I was surprised to hear that some homes don't have water meters at all. I forget where they are, but certainly not in urban areas.
    Often wrong, never in doubt.

    Click here to learn more about this contractor.
  • hot_rodhot_rod Member Posts: 13,318
    JUGHNE said:

    Our utility has been running a notice in the local weekly newsletter for this very reason.
    Also being a very small town, they will call if this water consumption rises. Especially call a relative for some old folks who may not read their bill correctly.

    We have a fixed sewer rate for houses......all of $23.00 a month....garbage is more at $23.80 monthly.

    I do not have the new water meter yet, so my water charge is still fixed at $10.00 for the month.

    I think it is fair that folks pay for the water they use, like gasoline. It's a precious commodity. The cost of pumping, treating, storing and distributing it should be covered by the consumers.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • Solid_Fuel_ManSolid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 1,978
    I was working in one of their buildings installing a heat pump water heater, and noticed a pile of water meters on several pallets. Asked about them and was told about new drinking water lead laws. They were bronze and said they have been changing them out to plastic ones. I asked if I could have one, and he gave me two freshly calibrated ones. They read in cubic feet.

    I put two garden hose connections on one and use washing machine hoses to do "water consumption audits" on various things. I am rural and have a well.

    My mid 1980s Maytag top loading washer uses 34 gallons/load.

    My 86 gallon well tank set to 30/50 holds 23 gallons between pump cycles.

    It's also very easy to temporarily supply a water heater through the drain with cold water and monitor hot water consumption.

    I am very surprised at the sensitivity and virtually no pressure drop of these meters. 5/8 threaded connections, hence the PVC adapters.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
    ratio
  • mattmia2mattmia2 Member Posts: 1,318
    You know there is a union that mates with those, right?
  • LeonardLeonard Member Posts: 903
    edited March 3
    Also check rubber bobber valve that closes off large dia pipe from tank to toilet. When they get old they don't seal well and let water leak by. Sometimes just hang up and let toilet run.

    ---------------------------------------------
    1000 gal a day sounds plausible, if toilet valve is stuck open all day.

    I fill drinking water jugs from shower after I wash, flushes the pipes. With shower head removed I can flow ~ 3.25 gal/min out the cold valve. That is with no flow restrictor, That is ~ 4700 gal /day. ~ 50 psi water, 1 inch pipe then ~ 6 feet of 1/2 inch pipe to shower.

    Here city sewer bill is tied to water consumption, sewer costs ~ 2X water bill.
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 6,924
    In the 80's we got a grant for an additional muni water well.
    The strings attached included adding new water meters with double BFP's, these had hard wired remote readouts.
    We have only 30-40 PSI on our mains and the BFP's combined with 5/8" meters created a problem. Soon the guts of the BFP's were removed and vac bkrs added to old school hose bibs. Boilers and ice machines needed the testable BFP's.

    Eventually the meters and/or readouts failed, no repair parts available.....company out of business.... and after about 40 years we are now getting WIFI readable meters.

    Yes, meter spud unions with 3/4" MPT make things easier, need rubber washers.

    Pumping costs, yes but no treatment needed, right out of the ground.
    Another cost is the sewer treatment plant......pumping again and treating clean water.

    1000 gal/day is 41 gal/hr or .70 gal/minute.

    One of the WC's had a flapper with all the chain used.....not trimmed to correct length. Often the excess chain would end up under the flapper and not seat at all,......common problem.
    In addition to the flush valve being adjusted to have the tank level too high.

    So these new meters will save water village wide......and sell some new WC parts.
  • Solid_Fuel_ManSolid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 1,978
    > @mattmia2 said:
    > You know there is a union that mates with those, right?

    Yes I know. But I found 5/8 - 3/4NPT PVC adapters in my bucket of random parts that never get used.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
    mattmia2
  • ChicagoCooperatorChicagoCooperator Member Posts: 261
    edited March 3
    I don't think that Chicago is completely metered - the historical billing method was on fixture counts (and number of units in multi-family). Anecdotally people have actually saved quite a bit by switching to meters, but the utility is difficult when there is a false reading (happened to my building - it took a lot of calling to get it verified as a reading error, we have a remote reader, some people get fed up and sell up). The program to switch them has been put on hold due to fear of lead poisoning...

    I know we've disallowed new water cooled residential ac systems (the kind where you just ran water and the hot "coolant" water just went down the drain!). Have heard stories about how high the water bills were with those systems...
  • LeonardLeonard Member Posts: 903
    edited March 8
    Old tenant ran a restaurant , it had 2 walk in freezers, Freon pump on both dumped heat to city water cooled coil, he bought it used . Tenant paid the water AND sewer bill. Chinese restaurant, talk about cheap people. Guessing he saved ~ $200 - $300 up front and paid thousands over 15 years,
    mattmia2
  • ChicagoCooperatorChicagoCooperator Member Posts: 261
    That reminds me of a neighbor who bragged about his contractor using 50 something tubes of caulk on new woodwork like that was a good thing. I immediately thought, well, somebody can’t miter. Of course, they used the cheapest contractor they could find to the point that their newly redone bathroom leaked into the common laundry room – through the brand new tilework rather than the shower plan or drain! Cheap is as cheap does I suppose.
  • mikeg2015mikeg2015 Member Posts: 1,178

    I was surprised to hear that some homes don't have water meters at all. I forget where they are, but certainly not in urban areas.

    We have a large corn refinery and some other mfg that are large users. All commercial and industrial is probably 90%+ of water use. So honestly, metering residential is almost a waste in my mind. Most costs for the water plant are fixed anyway.

    Our water some from the Mississippi River. Lately I think we need to export a couple MM gallons of water per second out west to reduce flooding. Haha.
  • mikeg2015mikeg2015 Member Posts: 1,178
    Actually, sending just 10% of the river, using 5FPS velocity would be a 112ft diameter pipe! Haha. Now that would be a heck of an engineering project.
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 6,924
    Cost is not only in water pumping but in sewer treatment.

    And most of us here in fly over country have our sewer plants discharge into rivers that eventually end up in the Mississippi river..........wait a minute you guys drink from that river?!? ;)
    mattmia2
  • ChicagoCooperatorChicagoCooperator Member Posts: 261
    edited March 6
    JUGHNE said:

    Cost is not only in water pumping but in sewer treatment.

    And most of us here in fly over country have our sewer plants discharge into rivers that eventually end up in the Mississippi river..........wait a minute you guys drink from that river?!? ;)

    Up here in Chicago we reversed a river to send sewage down to the Mississippi which St Louis does drink (google their gothic water intakes in the river). It's also getting us the risk of allowing Asian carp in the Great Lakes by connecting the waterways.
  • lchmblchmb Member Posts: 2,989
    glad i live in the woods.. no water or sewer charges.. dug well and septic system.. :)
  • jumperjumper Member Posts: 1,453
    I used to install meters but nobody bothered to read and record. So nobody knew before & nobody knows now.
    hot_rod said:

    water meters are very inexpensive if you wanted to add a second "readable" one for checking.

    Could pay for itself :);

    I always suggest a meter on the cold supply to the hot water tank to get actual DHW usage.

  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 6,924
    Update on the 1000gal/day WC.
    Last Sunday showed the kid how to change a flush flapper and he was going to change the second one this week.
    The second WC flapper change out didn't work out for him and this Sunday he got it corrected.

    He also read the meter.........1,415 gal for 7 days........203 gal per day. Seems more reasonable for 21 YO and grandma.
  • Hap_HazzardHap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,263
    Turn off the shutoff on each toilet (one at a time) for a day and see if the toilet is empty. If it's still full of water after a day, it's not using any water. If it leaks down to the bottom of the overflow, there's either a crack in the overflow pipe or the water is leaking past the threads. If it leaks down to the bottom of the tank, the tank gasket is leaking, If it leaks down to the flapper, the flapper is bad, but you probably checked that already.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA

    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • mattmia2mattmia2 Member Posts: 1,318
    Getting a flapper to seat right can be tricky, if it is using an adapter or has a ring that slips over the overflow it has to seat down far enough and certain flush valve assemblies need a flapper with longer arms to seal properly, my mom has a Richmond toilet from the 50's where a standard flapper will have the bulb touch the seat just enough to keep it from sealing completely, ones that are made for some Kohler models have longer arms and seal properly.
  • Hap_HazzardHap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,263
    Speaking of bad flappers, ever see one of these?

    This is what those Clorox tablets will do to a flapper.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA

    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
    Solid_Fuel_ManIntplm.
  • mattmia2mattmia2 Member Posts: 1,318
    Ann arbor water will do that all by itself
    ratio
  • Hap_HazzardHap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,263
    :o
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA

    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • mattmia2mattmia2 Member Posts: 1,318
    Is that the same peach Stylon tile that my mom has in her bathroom?
    BillyO
  • Hap_HazzardHap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,263
    mattmia2 said:

    Is that the same peach Stylon tile that my mom has in her bathroom?

    It's American Olean. Not sure what the color is called. They don't make it anymore.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA

    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • LeonardLeonard Member Posts: 903
    edited March 10
    If have rubber plunger version of flapper valve the rubber gets soft after they get old and they start to deform a little and leak.

    I never used clorox tablets inside the water tank. I was concerned they would speed up corrosion of the metal parts.
  • mattmia2mattmia2 Member Posts: 1,318
    That is a tank ball. Or some proprietary thing if it is newer. They aren't so bad for the metal, but the bleach tablets can deteriorate the plastic parts to the point a fill valve can break and cause a flood.
    BillyO
  • Hap_HazzardHap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,263
    The worst thing you can do is use those Clorox tablets in a toilet that doesn't get used on a daily basis, like a guest bathroom. They keep dissolving until the tank water is like pure bleach.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA

    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 6,924
    So with the 2 WC's corrected as much as possible the monthly usage for the 21 year old and Grandma has gone down to about 2000 gal per month. Water dept here says 2-3000 is typical for 2 people without lawn watering.
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 11,004
    The last time I used something in a toilet tank I had to make an emergency repair at like 2AM and ended up with a blue arm.

    Never again.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    ratioIntplm.mattmia2
  • Solid_Fuel_ManSolid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 1,978
    Blue arm crew? You part of that @ChrisJ
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
    ChrisJ
  • gerry gillgerry gill Member Posts: 2,977
    If you install an Uponor Phyn on the water line, you can have it conduct a plumbing test. If it finds the plumbing leaks it shuts the water off.
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com

    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

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