Old Bryant steam boiler, and duty cycle

Jamie Hall

Not really. The only real change will be the heat output of a given radiator will be slightly less due to the lower boiler/condensing point of the water.

And, of course, the burner has to be adjusted properly -- but that's a given.

Precaud

Thanks for confirming, Jamie.

Precaud

I ordered a brand-new-in-the box L604A-11169 Pressuretrol today to replace the defective one, it will be here next week.

What sort of pressure gauge do you guys recommend? This is the one it has now, I've never seen it move.




I also found the original Pressuretrol it had, an old "Minneapolis Honeywell" P104A1---4. The thing is set for 5 lbs cut in, and 2 lbs differential (additive). That's higher than I've ever seen mentioned for steam. Is it possible that this boiler was designed to work at that pressure?
I don't see a date code, but this thing looks straight out of the 50's. So the boiler may be that old...

Jamie Hall

Nice antique there. I wouldn't trust it... it might well have been set that way, not because the system was designed for it (highly unlikely) but because there were just as many people then who really didn't understand steam as there are now.

nicholas bonham-carter

Try 6 ounces (cut in) to 11 ounces (cut out), to start with, and go from there.--NBC

mattmia2

that gauge is probably working, just not enough pressure to move it, which is normal and desirable. You can tee a 0-3 psig gauge in with the pressuretrol to see what is actually going on. if the boiler is matched to the system it may build very little or any pressure.

i think the branding changed from Mineappolis-Honeylell to Honeywell sometime in the 50's.

Precaud

mattmia2 said:

that gauge is probably working, just not enough pressure to move it, which is normal and desirable. You can tee a 0-3 psig gauge in with the pressuretrol to see what is actually going on. if the boiler is matched to the system it may build very little or any pressure.

i think the branding changed from Mineappolis-Honeylell to Honeywell sometime in the 50's.

Interesting info, thanks. I googled and found MH was created in 1927, but didn't find when the name changed.

ethicalpaul

Is that asbestos did anyone ask yet?

Precaud

Yes it is. No need to lecture, I know all about it...

ethicalpaul

No lecture here, just mentioning it in case you didn’t know.

Precaud

Any suggestions on a replacement pressure gauge? What to get/what to avoid? It would be most convenient to replace the old square one, which is visible when walking by, but with a lower, more useful pressure range. I don't see anything on supplyhouse.

Jamie Hall

Pretty well have to keep the old square gauge -- the insurance folks want a 0 to 30 psi gauge. But you can get ones for 0 to 3 psi even on Amazon (not the best, but they work well enough -- Kodiak Controls) and using a T and some elbows and nipples mount it alongside the pressuretrol.

On the asbestos. Some folks panic. I'd not worry about it until you had to disturb it to work on the pipes. But that's me.

Precaud

Thanks Jamie, that helps.
My attitude on the asbestos is same as yours; just leave it alone and do not disturb. I've worked daily in that space for 23 years with no adverse health effects.

Precaud

mattmia2 said:

that gauge is probably working, just not enough pressure to move it, which is normal and desirable.

@mattmia2, Just FYI, you were correct. I disconnected the line from the tee to the gauge, and connected a tire pump to test the gauge. The guage works fine and its readings are commensurate with those on the pump's gauge, even down in the 1-2 psi range. So that's good to know, and good enough for now.

There was, however, water in the line at the tee, which I assume we don't want, and makes me wonder if the way it and the Pressuretrol are connected to the system is less than desirable... I'll post a pic that shows the details later.

It is so cool to have a knowledgable bunch of guys to bounce this stuff off of...

Precaud

OK, here's a pic of the existing connection to Pressuretrol and gauge. When the new LWCO was installed, they left the body of the old one in place, including its connections to the Pressuretrol and gauge, ALL of which are below the waterline. And there was water in the tee.

Is this as funky as it looks? Your thoughts/suggestions?

Jamie Hall

Talk about lazy... that's … just... unfortunate.

You and the pressuretrol and the gauge will all be a lot happier if you repipe that whole thing. Since I don't see how the new low water cutoff is piped -- the rest of it, I mean, I can't say offhand how I would repipe it. But both the gauge and the pressuretrol should be well above the water line, and the pigtail is just wrong. It should come horizontally off of whatever tapping is used, then curl down and around and vertically up, and then you connect the pressuretrol and the pressure gauge to the vertical section at the top.

And get rid of the old low water cutoff body. All it is doing for you is trapping sludge and sediment. And providing a very lazy way to hook things up.

JUGHNE

As Jamie said that old LWCO is a sludge bucket. The union on the lower connection could come out and a plug or cap for that.
The upper looks to be a compression fitting adaptor. IDK if any plug exists for that. However, the compression fitting and tubing on top could remain in place with a 3/8" cap on the LWCO end of the tube.

It looks like your pressure relief valve in on the top of the 90 leaving the tee. Perhaps it is time to consider a new one.
IIWM, I would add a tee between the boiler and the new relief valve, (keeping in oriented in the position it is in now), then add a nipple and 90 (1/4" brass bushing) up to a new copper vertical pigtail with double brass (cross) tee and new control on top. A nipple and 90 off to the side for your new gauge and the port of the cross to connect your old gauge with tubing.
There should be a water cushion inside the pigtail to prevent damage from the steam. That is the water you found in the old pigtail.

Precaud

Thanks for confirming, guys. It looked to me like the old LWCO was installed wrong (too low) in the first place. A new Pressuretrol is en route, but it appears there's no point installing it until this plumbing is corrected.
@Jamie Hall , the new LWCO appears to be installed consistent with the manual's instructions. The guage glass ****'y is mounted directly to those two feeds, and the 47-2 unit correctly to that. It behaves exactly as the manual describes it should.
And yes, the pigtail for the Ptrol is is definitely wrong, the loop is also supposed to be perpendicular (orthogonal) to the face of the body, as well. So, a sloppy install on many counts.
That old LWCO could very well already be full of sludge; its blowoff valve can be opened/closed (I can feel it with a finger), but nothing comes out so it is clogged internally. I'll definitely get rid of it, thanks.

@JUGHNE , thanks for your ideas. A couple questions:

IIWM, I would add a tee between the boiler and the new relief valve, (keeping in oriented in the position it is in now)

I'm confused by this. The manual for the Ptrol says it needs to be above the boiler waterline. I assumed that includes the tee and at least some of the pigtail. Is that correct? If so, then that whole assembly goes up several inches.

There should be a water cushion inside the pigtail to prevent damage from the steam. That is the water you found in the old pigtail.

The pigtail needs to be below the Ptrol and above the boiler waterline, yes?
Thanks for your patience with my novice questions. This is my first foray into plumbing of this type...

JUGHNE

You want the pressure relief valve, pigtail, pressure control and both gauges connected above the water line.
All are to sense the pressure of the steam.
Less plugging problems if away from the water.

The water in the pigtail is the cushion to protect all (except the relief valve). You should prime the tail with water after it is installed before adding the devices to it.

Steam pushes on the water.....the water pushes on the air in the top of the pigtail and that is what those devices sense.
You should feel the steam temp (ouch!) on the lower part of the pigtail and cooler temp on the top just under the devices.

The pressure relief valve must sense the boiler pressure with full port sizing it has now....usually 3/4" openings.

Precaud

JUGHNE said:

You want the pressure relief valve, pigtail, pressure control and both gauges connected above the water line.

Yes, but the question is where they are situated, not just connected. They're connected above the waterline now.

ethicalpaul

I think your pigtail and Pressuretrol are lower than you want them.

If it were me, I would remove that old LWCO and repipe the controls.

If you want to avoid that (at least for now), the easiest thing to do would be to purchase a "straight" pigtail and some 1/4" fittings and maybe an 8 or 10 inch 1/4" nipple (all brass or bronze, no iron or steel) to raise the pigtail and pressuretroll. Make one of the fittings be a union so you can disassemble later easily for cleaning.

A "straight" pigtail is one where it does a full 360 degree turn and the inlet and outlet are in line with each other, compared to your current one where it makes a 270 degree turn.

Supplyhouse.com has all this stuff and quick delivery and they sponsor this site. Here's the pigtail even. It's a nice number of dollars: https://www.supplyhouse.com/Generic-PIGTBRS-1-4-Straight-Brass-Pigtail?utm_source=HeatingHelp

PS: if you leave that old LWCO in place you want to be sure that steam can get through it to your controls. You can remove the pressuretroll or gauge and steam the boiler to see if steam comes out. But it sure seems like it would get gunked up fast. Edit: it looks like you are removing it, nice.

Precaud

Thanks for clarifying, @ethicalpaul .
I didn't know supplyhouse was site sponsor. I'll definitely support them where appropriate.

ethicalpaul

My pleasure. Just to clarify, they are a sponsor, one of many, whose ads you can see on this page.

ethicalpaul

I should have mentioned, but I missed your earlier post. Your existing gauge is probably hopelessly gunked up and as you noticed, not operational. So make one of your fittings be a Tee and get a low pressure gauge like this one to put alongside your new Pressuretrol: https://www.supplyhouse.com/Winters-Instruments-PLP305-2-1-2-PLP-Steel-Low-Pressure-Gauge-1-4-Bottom-NPT-w-Brass-Internals-0-5-PSI

edit: @mattmia2 already suggested this and I agree with him

Precaud

Yes, that is the plan. BTW, I examined and tested the existing gauge, it is not gunked up at all, and works fine. Since it has never moved when the boiler is operating, no pressure is getting through to it.

To correct an earlier mistake: I said a few days ago that my thermostat had a "cycle length" setting. That was an error. It is a "cycles per hour" setting. It doesn't control the length of the on-cycle, but the interval between them, i.e. how often they can occur. For steam, they recommend the 2 cycles per hour setting. I assume this is to prevent short-cycling. I currently have it set for 3.

ethicalpaul

OK, thanks. Did you remove the gauge to test it?

And it doesn't mean that no pressure is getting through to it, it could be that there is just no (or very little) pressure building at all (which is not a bad thing).

If there was no pressure getting through to it, that would imply it is in fact gunked up, no?

Fine business on your thermostat clarification, that makes much more sense. But if they recommend 2 cycles per hour for steam, why do you have it set for 3?

Precaud

ethicalpaul said:

OK, thanks. Did you remove the gauge to test it?

Yes, removed the connection to it.

And it doesn't mean that no pressure is getting through to it, it could be that there is just no (or very little) pressure building at all (which is not a bad thing).

Good point.

If there was no pressure getting through to it, that would imply it is in fact gunked up, no?

No, that's why I tested it. Most likely the old LWCO is the clogged culprit.

Fine business on your thermostat clarification, that makes much more sense. But if they recommend 2 cycles per hour for steam, why do you have it set for 3?

A compromise. The temp sensor can be unstable. Somtimes it will change just from my walking by, or touching it to change the temp setting. I wish they used a longer integration time on it (assuming it has any at all now...).

BTW, I contacted Bryant, the numbers on the ID plate do not correspond to anything in their system, so they can't give a date of manufacture. She did agree that the other features on the plate suggest something in the late 50's to early 60's.

PMJ

@Precaud ,

What is the model and serial #? I can't read your photo.

I found this:
https://www.building-center.org/bryant-hvac-age/ but my serial number doesn't line up exactly with any of these either.

mattmia2

It looks like the gas control is a total shutoff control(instead of a separate main gas valve and a manual pilot valve) so either it was made after that rule went in to effect (I think mid 60's) or the gas valve was replaced at some point.

Precaud

PMJ said:

What is the model and serial #? I can't read your photo.

@PMJ , interesting link, thanks. The numbers punched into the ID plate are:
7 S 225 - D296 3486
Which doesn't line up with any of the sequences on that link you posted.

That's basically what the Bryan CS rep said too. "those numbers are not validating in our system". She showed it to someone who had been there the longest and they didn't make any sense of it either. Hence the guess it was from the 50's.

What does your ID plate look like? Similar to mine?

EDIT: It IS possible that mine matches up to "Style 6" on that site:
: 1st digit 7 is week
: letter S = 1965
: 225 would be serial number.
But that's a stretch... it's not enough numerical digits at the end...

PMJ

Precaud said:

PMJ said:

What is the model and serial #? I can't read your photo.

@PMJ , interesting link, thanks. The numbers punched into the ID plate are:
7 S 225 - D296 3486
Which doesn't line up with any of the sequences on that link you posted.

That's basically what the Bryan CS rep said too. "those numbers are not validating in our system". She showed it to someone who had been there the longest and they didn't make any sense of it either. Hence the guess it was from the 50's.

What does your ID plate look like? Similar to mine?

EDIT: It IS possible that mine matches up to "Style 6" on that site:
: 1st digit 7 is week
: letter S = 1965
: 225 would be serial number.
But that's a stretch... it's not enough numerical digits at the end...

I think the left side number is a model or series. I'll try to post a photo of mine.

PMJ

Looks to me like you have a size 7 model 225. I have a size 7 model 446.

Attached are the cover and the pages out of Bryant's 46th edition catalog. I'm not seeing a date anywhere on it. I see that Charles Bryant started Bryant heating in 1904 so if they did one every year that would put it about 1950. Carrier bought the company in 1955. I see your tag has all 3 cities on it and mine only 2. I don't think the Cleveland plant was closed, just wasn't headquarters anymore.

PMJ

There is a date of 1957 on the installation manual (cover attached) which is what I was thinking mine was as there was significant work done on the house that year.

Precaud

That is SO cool, @PMJ ! Many thanks for posting those. It is obvious by the similarity of the ID plates that they're from the same period. I'd guess mine is a couple years older than yours; they definitely upped their game in the sheet metal department. Does the enclosure of yours have the rounded corners as shown in the catalog? Mine are square on the front, not as sophisticated-looking.

I'm curious about the "Output" rating in the catalog. Is this the recommended size of heated space for each model? In my case, only 525 sq ft. for 126,000 BTU output; in yours, 369,000 BTU for 1540 sq ft. Even granting that most buildings were leaky as hell and totally uninsulated back then, that would be serious overkill.

It's cool knowing that my boiler is only 2 or 3 years younger than I... and still going strong!

PMJ

My enclosure is rounded like the catalog.

The IBR rating is lower. I've attached that page here. 1000 sqft for mine which is what I have in 23 radiators. I think they actually measured my house and did it "correctly". Yes overkill even in my place with no insulation beyond original Cellulose stuff in the attic. I like the extra though and would do it again to have all the off time for the vacuum to do its thing.

Precaud

PMJ said:

My enclosure is rounded like the catalog.

Nice looking units. I like how the catalog shows the boilers without any of their necessary piping...

The IBR rating is lower. I've attached that page here. 1000 sqft for mine which is what I have in 23 radiators. I think they actually measured my house and did it "correctly".

Hmmm... so IBR is a rating for "radiator surface area" ? Not for "heated area"? What is the total sq footage yours is heating?

When I initially got this place, all 8 radiators were active. House had air leaks everywhere, no insulation. Heated sq footage was 2500 (half of it "semi-finished" daylight basement). The heater handled it fine. Maybe was pushed a liitle when overnight temps dropped below zero (rare).

Now, the ceiling is R48 or better, basement walls R6 or better, 2/3 of the house's south side is enclosed by solar heaters, air leaks sealed, three rooms on the north side are closed off during the winter and their three radiators shut off. The boiler loafs along under these conditions.

PMJ

Precaud said:

PMJ said:

My enclosure is rounded like the catalog.

Nice looking units. I like how the catalog shows the boilers without any of their necessary piping...

The IBR rating is lower. I've attached that page here. 1000 sqft for mine which is what I have in 23 radiators. I think they actually measured my house and did it "correctly".

Hmmm... so IBR is a rating for "radiator surface area" ? Not for "heated area"? What is the total sq footage yours is heating?

When I initially got this place, all 8 radiators were active. Leaks everywhere, no insulation. Heated sq footage was 2500 (half of it "semi-finished" daylight basement). The heater handled it fine. Maybe was pushed a liitle when overnight temps dropped below zero (rare).

Now, the ceiling is R48 or better, basement walls R6 or better, 2/3 of the house's south side enclosed by solar heaters, leaks sealed, three rooms on the north side are closed during the winter and their three radiators shut. The boiler loafs along under these conditions.


Right, the ratings are always for the total EDR(equivalent direct radiation) of the installed radiators not the house sqft to be heated. So I have 1000sqft(EDR) of installed radiation. The house itself is about 3500sqft.

Chris_L

Not sure if this is of any use to you, but here are some dated instructions about the gas burners Bryant used--apparently in a steam boiler in my home that was long gone when I bought it 26 years ago.

The instructions about operating the burner during a power failure are interesting.

mattmia2

The boiler has to be matched to the amount of steam the radiation can consume. EDR is a way of measuring that.

A boiler that is too big will waste energy and short cycle. A boiler that is too small won't be able to heat all of the radiation.

mattmia2

@Chris_L the furnace my house had when I bought it had a valve with a knob on the bottom you could push and turn to manually open the valve. It was built as a gravity gas furnace but installed with a separate blower cabinet. your instructions appear to be for a conversion burner for coal furnaces/boilers.