Steam Pipe Insulation

ethicalpaul

You really should at least "blow out" the pigtail to make sure it's clear. It's so important to not destroying vents and/or wasting fuel.

The swaying may come from others

denkelly

I blew it out when I added the 3psi gauge. I heard the water splash out of the pigtail. Yes I added some water back. I will also check it again when I take the p-trol off. I'll have a straight shot and I'll run a pipe cleaner through it.

I ordered the new p-trol for $109 shipped with tax from Amazon. I'll see if I can put together a rig to test it before I install it. Money is tight, but if I mess up the p-trol and have to run to the plumbing supply I'm paying full retail. Also I get 6 months no interest paying $18 a month. Maybe I'll save that much in fuel costs to cover that ...

Hap_Hazzard

denkelly said:

I just found a 404A 1033 on Amazon for $100 I have a 1009.

I'm not sure if you can tell from the model number if it's additive or subtractive, but if it's additive, it should say "cut-in" above the scale. If it says "cut-out," follow the instructions for subtractive.

Just be sure not to get a 404B. That would be bad.

denkelly said:

The set screw is caked in loctite

That's just there to keep it from moving due to vibration. It breaks away when you turn the screw, and you can replace it with nail polish.

ethicalpaul

In his closeup picture on the previous page, the set screw can be seen to be fully and completely flooded and covered with loctite. You couldn't get an Allen key into it.

Hap_Hazzard

ethicalpaul said:

In his closeup picture on the previous page, the set screw can be seen to be fully and completely flooded and covered with loctite. You couldn't get an Allen key into it.

I couldn't? I bet I could. Maybe you couldn't.

denkelly

The one I bought says cut in just like the one that I have and I've confirmed that this part number is a direct replacement.

I know I could get an allen key in there, it just needs some heat on it and I have the tools..... 4 main reasons I got a new one:
1) Local plumbing supply wants $150, and this was $100
2) This is a safety device, not just a controller.
3) the differential is off too. The dial is set to 1, but it's actually 1.5+.
4) it was 11 degrees last night, it's not summer. better to be conservative.

Hap_Hazzard

denkelly said:

I know I could get an allen key in there, it just needs some heat on it and I have the tools.....

I'd try a drop of acetone first, then move on to a few other solvents if that doesn't work. Being part of a boiler control, they probably used something somewhat heat-resistant, so it would take a little more heat than I'd care to try to apply to the inside of a Pressuretrol to melt it.

nde

That is a lot of pressure in a short time, even my 40% oversize boiler will run 40 minutes before even building to 10 ounces. Looks like the near piping (esp the equalizer) is possibly the cause, or you have some partial obstruction between in the main(s) somewhere.

denkelly

nde said:

Looks like the near piping (esp the equalizer) is possibly the cause

what's the equalizer?

denkelly

So the new p-trol came in and ran the same damned pressures... I have no idea why I expected it to work properly....

So I put a little heat on the set screw in the old trol and had to turn that set screw almost a full turn to get this to .5 cut in and 1.5 cut out.

It's 51 degrees outside and 76 in my house right from playing with this... LOL

Hap_Hazzard

The equalizer is a pipe that runs from the header to a tapping located near the bottom of the boiler casting. The equalizer tapping is at about the same level as the draincock, but the tapping is usually larger.

TC83

Pretty sure non-ferrous pigtails are not required by nyc code, and most insurers will also request it if not already done upon renewal inspections. I went through this a couple years back.

ethicalpaul

Pretty sure non-ferrous pigtails are not required by nyc code

Did you mean now required?

dopey27177

This is why you need to insulate the steam piping.
1. your heat loss with un-insulated steam piping is about 20%.
2. un-insulated steam piping creates excess condensed steam (water) in the steam piping.
3. This condition can cause damage to all the vent valves in the system as well as water Hammer.

See my take on BTUs saved when the piping is insulated.

This example is in chapter five of my book, Steam the Perfect Fluid for Heating and some of the Problems

Jake

denkelly

dopey27177 said:

This is why you need to insulate the steam piping.
e

This is where I am confused. My boiler is WAY oversized (about double), and even though everything is working (minus some minor water hammer at cold startup in one radiator) couldn't insulating the pipes cause problems? I thought that's what someone on here said.

I also don't understand what short cycling is and if my boiler is doing it or not.... Once the system is hot,
- the Flame goes on for about 3 minutes and the pressure hits 1.5psi and the flame goes off,
- pressure drops within a 2 or 3 minutes to .5 psi
- flame goes on for about 3 minutes until it hits 1.5psi
- repeat until the thermostat (2nd Gen Nest) is satisfied.

This process seems wasteful to me but I don't know how a properly sized boiler is supposed to behave.

denkelly

nde said:

That is a lot of pressure in a short time, even my 40% oversize boiler will run 40 minutes before even building to 10 ounces. Looks like the near piping (esp the equalizer) is possibly the cause, or you have some partial obstruction between in the main(s) somewhere.

If I had a blockage would everything be working so well? I get heat in my furthest radiator within 15 minutes from cold.

ethicalpaul

This is where I am confused. My boiler is WAY oversized (about double), and even though everything is working (minus some minor water hammer at cold startup in one radiator) couldn't insulating the pipes cause problems? I thought that's what someone on here said.

Insulating in your case will act to make your boiler even more oversized. But you are wastefully heating your basement so you have to weigh one evil against the other.

I also don't understand what short cycling is and if my boiler is doing it or not.... Once the system is hot,
- the Flame goes on for about 3 minutes and the pressure hits 1.5psi and the flame goes off,
- pressure drops within a 2 or 3 minutes to .5 psi
- flame goes on for about 3 minutes until it hits 1.5psi
- repeat until the thermostat (2nd Gen Nest) is satisfied.

This process seems wasteful to me but I don't know how a properly sized boiler is supposed to behave.

That is pretty short cycling, yeah, due probably as you say to your oversized boiler. I call it "cycling on pressure".

I wouldn't call it wasteful. I would call it not optimal. Consider if it just kept burning fuel even though all your radiators are full of steam. Now THAT's wasteful!

The way it's supposed to work is that your radiation can condense all the steam that your boiler can create, so that the boiler keeps running until the thermostat is satisfied, never building pressure over .5 psi or whatever.

Edit: and one more thing just to make sure: Have you verified that your new main vents close due to steam reaching them before the first time your boiler shuts down on pressure cut-out?

dopey27177

To correct this problem of short cycling due to an oversized boiler. If it is oil fired have your service company install a nozzle. That will cause the boiler to take a longer time to produce steam.

If you are gas fired yo may need to change the gas burner.

After that is done you can insulate your steam piping and save a whole lot of money in fuel costs.

Jake

Jamie Hall

If it can be downfired. Not all boilers can and work well...

denkelly

dopey27177 said:

To correct this problem of short cycling due to an oversized boiler. If it is oil fired have your service company install a nozzle. That will cause the boiler to take a longer time to produce steam.

If you are gas fired yo may need to change the gas burner.

After that is done you can insulate your steam piping and save a whole lot of money in fuel costs.

Jake

Gas not oil. And I have the EG-50 which is the smallest of this series (to my knowledge) so I don't think changing gas burners is an option. Anyone familiar with the Weil McLain EG series?

denkelly

"But you are wastefully heating your basement so you have to weigh one evil against the other."

Basement is finished, so it's not being wasted. I have an office down there and work from home a few days a week. I'm actually setting up a fan to blow warm air from the boiler room into the basement.

"The way it's supposed to work is that your radiation can condense all the steam that your boiler can create, so that the boiler keeps running until the thermostat is satisfied, never building pressure over .5 psi or whatever."

That makes sense to me, thank you. Basically the steam should be condensing as fast as the boiler is producing it. So if everything is working OK, no banging or uneven heating then it's not the worst thing, just sub-optimal.

"Edit: and one more thing just to make sure: Have you verified that your new main vents close due to steam reaching them before the first time your boiler shuts down on pressure cut-out?"

I will check this out and report back. Thanks!

denkelly

My main vents close before the first cut out and I see 190 degrees plus at every radiator in the house just before or right at that first cutoff. That happens in about 10-15 minutes.

I really appreciate everyones comments, helpfulness and friendly attitude.

Since my only issue is some light noise in one radiator in the living room on first steam, I'm gonna call this better than it was and good enough. If I ever have to change the boiler I know to downsize it big time.

ethicalpaul

OK sounds like good ol’ cycling on pressure. There are worse things.

TC83

@ethicalpaul apologies for the delayed response, i am not getting notifications of threads i am in. But yes, in NYC (possibly NYS?) non-ferrous pigtail pipe for controls are required as of July 2008. My insurer nicked me on that a few years ago and only noticed because we stood there chatting about parking while he filled out paperwork! Doesn't seem like its actively enforced.

denkelly

TC83 said:

But yes, in NYC (possibly NYS?) non-ferrous pigtail pipe for controls are required as of July 2008.

You're talking about the iron pipe on my new pressure gauge?

If you folks think it's an issue, I can buy brass pipes. The pressuretrol is all brass, it's just the gauges that are iron.

KC_Jones

denkelly said:

Gas not oil. And I have the EG-50 which is the smallest of this series (to my knowledge) so I don't think changing gas burners is an option. Anyone familiar with the Weil McLain EG series?

I take no responsibility for this, but I ran an EG-45 with 2 burners removed for 12 years without any issues, but I'm sure the pros on here will seriously frown on that. Boiler was 32 years old when it finally died, so it did not seem to impact the longevity.

If you were really ambitious you could, in theory, tear the boiler apart and remove a middle section turning it into either an EG-40 or EG-45, burner change, casing change etc. If hiring a professional it would probably cost as much as a new boiler so not worth it.

What size is the piping coming out of that boiler? I can't tell if it's 2" or 2 1/2". I think there is something to an oversized drop header utilizing both tappings on the boiler. When reading all the stories on here, that setup seems to more effectively tame the beast when the sizing is less than optimal. I of course only have conjecture on that point. If it is only 2" that could be part of the problem as it would be choking the output down adding to your problem.

TC83

@ethicalpaul like i said, they are technically required, but rarely it seems enforced. if you blew them out and they were clear of obstruction then i do not see it being a high priority. Maybe summer time maintenance or if they eventually plug up. I only did it because i got threatened with non-renewal of insurance! crazy people these companies at times.

denkelly

What size is the piping coming out of that boiler? I can't tell if it's 2" or 2 1/2". I think there is something to an oversized drop header utilizing both tappings on the boiler. When reading all the stories on here, that setup seems to more effectively tame the beast when the sizing is less than optimal. I of course only have conjecture on that point. If it is only 2" that could be part of the problem as it would be choking the output down adding to your problem.

First, I'm not that ambitious. I'm not having issues getting heat, so I don't currently see a financial savings that would equal the cost of changing out major boiler parts or otherwise making major modifications. my monthly costs are not astronomical. My house is attached ad my worst gas bill when it's below 20 degrees all month won't top $180.

That is a 2" pipe. 7 1/2" Circumference which has an OD of 2 3/8 and an ID of 2 according to my sources.

I don't see me tearing into that either or adding to the other tapping for that matter.

Thanks

denkelly

If anyone is interested, I have been slowly lowering the pressure and cut out occurs about 1.2 psi now and the water hammer in my living room radiator has ceased.

Thanks again to everyone.

ethicalpaul

We're all interested Congrats!