Brookline MA, No oil or Natural gas For New Construction

BDR529

So Brookline voted it in. What do you want to heat with?

John Mills_5

Heat pump with LP backup? If you can't have LP, then has to be electric backup.

HVACNUT

Geothermal with second stage electric.

Jamie Hall

Uh huh. Not surprised. Very green, Brooklne is. One wonders... just where are they planning the get the electricity from? Elves?

LP will be a non-starter -- take a look at what is happening in Quebec and Eastern Ontario.

Sal Santamaura

Jamie Hall said:

...LP will be a non-starter -- take a look at what is happening in Quebec and Eastern Ontario.

Why would LP be a non-starter in MA? Those Canadian regions are experiencing shortages due to a rail strike in their own country that impacts transport of product from Alberta and Saskatchewan. Almost all LP here is domestically produced.

Zman

Are they allowing LP but not natural gas?

STEVEusaPA

Move

Jolly Bodger

Outdoor Wood Boiler.

The size and construction of the house will drive your options. Also how much land you have.

I like @HVACNUT 's recommendation. But not an option for everyone.

acwagner

Passive solar home with masonry heater backup.

Jamie Hall

@Sal Santamaura -- your comment about the rail strike is true, of course. But... has it never occurred that the same thing could happen in New England? New England has woefully inadequate pipeline capacity (and LP doesn't pipe well anyway). Check. New England is served by rail. Check. New England is served by only one rail company, for all practical purposes. Check... mate.

jumper

Coal ha ha ha. BTW local government is pre-empted by national DOT. So they can't stop you from bringing in wheeled tanks of CNG?
For remote locations some Canadians brought coal each visit. Coal beat gathering bundles of brushwood.

jumper

An obvious question is: can grid handle heating load?

Jamie Hall

jumper said:

An obvious question is: can grid handle heating load?

jumper said:

An obvious question is: can grid handle heating load?

No.

Steamhead

It's only a matter of time before the courts get rid of these prohibitions for being anti-competitive.

mattmia2

They can't prohibit you transporting lpg but they do have jurisdiction to prevent you from installing the equipment to use it. Sounds like a big win for historic preservation.

Jamie Hall

Apparently you can have LP -- if you can get it. It would be nice to think it would be a win for historic preservation, and it may be if it discourages people from tearing things down and building new.

BDR529

Whole thing seems like a distraction. What will this stupidity usher in.

Most of the fuels gas or other are by products of making other petroleum based products. They used to dump gasoline down the drain.

New construction so tight everyone will be sick.
The load on the electrical grid would be incredible.

It seems to be a control/monopoly issue. Would like to what new tech they will offer.

Interesting, Bio-fuel, the renewable source wasn't strong enough to squash this.

Sal Santamaura

Jamie Hall said:

@Sal Santamaura -- your comment about the rail strike is true, of course. But... has it never occurred that the same thing could happen in New England? New England has woefully inadequate pipeline capacity (and LP doesn't pipe well anyway). Check. New England is served by rail. Check. New England is served by only one rail company, for all practical purposes. Check... mate.

I expect the Canadian government would step in and force rail workers back on the job as a public health/safety measure if things reached critical mass, simultaneously mandating mediation. Our government would undoubtedly do the same in a similar situation here. Not taking that kind of action guarantees elected officials become former elected officials, a status they intensely dislike.

Jamie Hall

Sal Santamaura said:

Jamie Hall said:

@Sal Santamaura -- your comment about the rail strike is true, of course. But... has it never occurred that the same thing could happen in New England? New England has woefully inadequate pipeline capacity (and LP doesn't pipe well anyway). Check. New England is served by rail. Check. New England is served by only one rail company, for all practical purposes. Check... mate.

I expect the Canadian government would step in and force rail workers back on the job as a public health/safety measure if things reached critical mass, simultaneously mandating mediation. Our government would undoubtedly do the same in a similar situation here. Not taking that kind of action guarantees elected officials become former elected officials, a status they intensely dislike.

One could hope the Canadian government would, @Sal Santamaura -- but given the shall we say dysfunctional state of both Quebec and the Feds just at the moment, we may see a lot of damage to agricultural interests (they will be hardest hit) before that happens.

george_42

geothermal for my 3 year old 3000 sq ft home uses about 700 kw per month at 10 cents a kw or %70 a month . MY CHOICE in central pa

Jamie Hall

Perhaps the thing which is lost sight of in all of this was mentioned sort of in passing by @mattmia2 a while back: there is, particularly in cities and suburban areas, a tremendous investment in the built environment. (There is in rural areas, too, but most of us can get by one way or another). It is all very well to speak of banning this or subsidizing or requiring that in new construction, but the practicality -- never mind the expense -- of "doing something" for the existing built environment seems to have escaped many people. While this is particularly true in cities -- @george_42 's geothermal is lovely, for instance, but is unlikely to be feasible in Manhattan -- it also apples to suburban or small town settings as well.

At the risk of being slightly political, in my humble opinion no solution set should be considered unless it offers true improvement at a reasonable cost to all, and not just to affluent folks in tony woke suburbs (Jamie ducks back behind the barricades).

ethicalpaul

jumper said:

An obvious question is: can grid handle heating load?

Yes it certainly can. They aren't switching over every building today, they are just limiting new construction and gut renovations. How much new construction is in Brookline anyway? If it's anything like the other New England towns I have seen there's damn little.

And new construction and gut renovations typically have really good insulation mandated by code, right?

This is the way to incrementally move away from burners in every house, if that's the way people want to go which apparently these people do.

You all know that in the move to oil the coal industry made the same protestations, right? And the oil industry did the same thing when ng started to move in, didn't it? (and it still is--they are still spending $$$ trying to scare people about explosions even today). We've seen this story before. Embedded interests of course are against change. Good luck Brookline, you are doing an interesting experiment.

Intplm.

So Brookline voted it in. @BDR529 when is this all supposed to take effect? Next year? Ten years?
Usually these things do not take effect overnight. Or are they really that foolish to start enforcing this right away !?

woobagooba

https://www.bostonherald.com/2019/11/21/brookline-bans-natural-gas-heating-oil-pipes-for-new-buildings-gas-is-the-past/

Only 214 people voted in town of 58K population?

BDR529

Intplm. said:

So Brookline voted it in. @BDR529 when is this all supposed to take effect? Next year? Ten years?
Usually these things do not take effect overnight. Or are they really that foolish to start enforcing this right away !?

I thought it was a bad joke. Who knows on the time line, they voted it in.

Somebodys cousin, sister's ex-roomate needs a job. Here you go.. You must inforce this.

Sal Santamaura

woobagooba said:

https://www.bostonherald.com/2019/11/21/brookline-bans-natural-gas-heating-oil-pipes-for-new-buildings-gas-is-the-past/

Only 214 people voted in town of 58K population?

An 89% turnout. There are 240 elected Town Meeting members eligible to vote:

https://www.brooklinema.gov/264/Town-Meeting

They're elected by that 58k population.

jumper

Murphy the lawgiver stipulates that 'lectricity fails when it is most critical. Like when it is COLD. With a generator, or better yet a blowerless burner, one can get by with NG. NG distribution is more robust than 'lectric.
This logic also says coal or nuclear is more prudent for generating electricity than NG. Especially in regions susceptible to COLD.

JUGHNE

Which coast is this on?

ethicalpaul

> @jumper said:
> Murphy the lawgiver stipulates that 'lectricity fails when it is most critical. Like when it is COLD. With a generator, or better yet a blowerless burner, one can get by with NG. NG distribution is more robust than 'lectric.
> This logic also says coal or nuclear is more prudent for generating electricity than NG. Especially in regions susceptible to COLD.

It’s a reasonable argument but what percentage of homes are set up with generators? Some, but even today the grid is heavily relied on in the NE (and everywhere)

ChrisJ

I still don't see the problem.

If you're building a new house and want a fuel that's not allowed there, build your new house and pay the taxes in an area that does allow it.

Either their laws will work for them or they won't.
Isn't that the whole idea?


I'm fairly sure if new construction continues steady as it has been or even increases no one will care what is said on here.

BDR529

ChrisJ said:

I still don't see the problem.



If you're building a new house and want a fuel that's not allowed there, build your new house and pay the taxes in an area that does allow it.



Either their laws will work for them or they won't.

Isn't that the whole idea?





I'm fairly sure if new construction continues steady as it has been or even increases no one will care what is said on here.

I don't see it as that. More like a test to see what the public will swallow.

Look at what happened at Harvard Vs. Yale yeterday.

ChrisJ

> @BDR529 said:
> (Quote)
> I don't see it as that. More like a test to see what the public will swallow.
>
> Look at what happened at Harvard Vs. Yale yeterday.

The public believes a typical shopvac is 6 horsepower.

There's no need to test anything.

Jamie Hall

As I said before, @ChrisJ , it's not new construction that bothers me. Due to increased cost, that will probably slow down, but frankly that's not my problem! And areas such as Brookline are already pretty built out.

What bothers me is how people propose to handle the existing built environment. It is not all that great a leap for the regulations to change slightly so that renovations involving the heating to some degree will also be required to conform. There are various options of course -- I used to tell people that given enough money an engineer can do almost anything -- but who, exactly, is going to pay for it?

On the supply side, despite one of the comments above, there is no way the existing electric grid and generating capacity can handle much more load, at least in the BosWash metroplex, without very large capital investments in distribution and generating capacity. There is already inadequate pipeline capacity for natural gas. Building pipelines for LP would be a nightmare.

And on the consumer side... are you really going to expect a landlord in the city to replace his existing system? On whose dime? In many places he can't raise the rent, so as they say "fuggedabatit". Repairs simply won't get done. If he can raise the rent, can the folks who were there pay the additional? Never mind the homeowner trying to make ends meet. Or are we going to subside all the work by the government -- in which case all of our taxes will soar.

As I said, it's all very well for the woke folks to dream dreams and see visions, but it would be nice if some practicality were factored in as well, just now and then.

jumper

Old dispute regarding overhead versus underground. Latter doesn't fall down but repairs when required take more time.

Jamie Hall

jumper said:

Old dispute regarding overhead versus underground. Latter doesn't fall down but repairs when required take more time.

Underground also costs a wee bit more to install -- like anywhere from 5 to 10 times as much, and is much more difficult to inspect and maintain.

njtommy

It will most likely be. Crappy little ptac units in every room and electric water heaters.

ratio

Sounds like an all-around win.

nibs

If you have the space, shallow well or trench geothermal will cut your heating bill considerably. Deep well will cost only for the install and then pumping.

Jamie Hall

nibs said:

If you have the space, shallow well or trench geothermal will cut your heating bill considerably. Deep well will cost only for the install and then pumping.

Quite so. But what do you do if you don't have the space? Or the spare cash to invest in the system?

What do you do for geothermal in a residential subdivision on 50 by 100 foot lots?

And... what do you do if the existing heating system isn't suited for geothermal?

I'm sorry to sound like a curmudgeon, but unless the "solutions" proposed allow for a wide range of circumstances, you don't have a solution.

ratio

https://www.pmmag.com/articles/102203-john-siegenthaler-picking-winners

ethicalpaul

Jamie Hall said:

As I said before, @ChrisJ , it's not new construction that bothers me. Due to increased cost, that will probably slow down, but frankly that's not my problem! And areas such as Brookline are already pretty built out.

What bothers me is how people propose to handle the existing built environment. It is not all that great a leap for the regulations to change slightly so that renovations involving the heating to some degree will also be required to conform. There are various options of course -- I used to tell people that given enough money an engineer can do almost anything -- but who, exactly, is going to pay for it?

On the supply side, despite one of the comments above, there is no way the existing electric grid and generating capacity can handle much more load, at least in the BosWash metroplex, without very large capital investments in distribution and generating capacity. There is already inadequate pipeline capacity for natural gas. Building pipelines for LP would be a nightmare.

And on the consumer side... are you really going to expect a landlord in the city to replace his existing system? On whose dime? In many places he can't raise the rent, so as they say "fuggedabatit". Repairs simply won't get done. If he can raise the rent, can the folks who were there pay the additional? Never mind the homeowner trying to make ends meet. Or are we going to subside all the work by the government -- in which case all of our taxes will soar.

As I said, it's all very well for the woke folks to dream dreams and see visions, but it would be nice if some practicality were factored in as well, just now and then.

This is for new construction and gut-renos. So I think everything after your first sentence isn't pertinent to Brookline? And I say this with nothing but warm feelings!